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Can we talk about Kassadin?

Melledoneus··19 votes·2,369 views

He's listed as an assassin at the moment, but he is outbursted by every single champion in the game. Until he gets at least 4 damage items, Kassadin is extremely weak and cannot properly fight anybody unless he already has a huge lead. His only ability that cancels channels has a longer channel than most channeled abilities in the game, his W forces him to deliver himself to his enemy to burst them down, his E feels lackluster until late game, and his ultimate is a shadow of its former self.

Kassadin used to be mobile with a silence, providing mobility and utility to make up for his lack of innate burst. But now he's basically a worse Akali. And when you have an assassin worse than Akali, you know you have issues.

Riot, I know you don't want Kassadin to be too strong, but please give him something that makes picking him feel unique. Right now he offers nothing that others assassins can offer. Auto attack steroid? -Talon Fizz Shaco Rengar Soft CC? -Zed Talon Akali Fizz Mobility? -Akali Fizz Zed Leblanc Targeted damage? -Leblanc Fizz Diana Ekko

Every single one of these things that Kassadin offers, another champion can do better. Not to mention he's extremely weak against AD matchups, and most AP matchups out-range him. Playing Kassadin right now feels awful because Riot nerfed him into the ground while their precious Zed gets compensation buffs. There is no excuse for keeping Kassadin so weak when mages are running amok right now with the new updates.

Please, Riot. Take a look at Kassadin. He just feels awful to play.

36 Comments

ACENOX9 votes

There is nothing to say. Kassadin is dead, what was left is a worse leblanc. his R range makes the spell so ordinary. his passive is what every melees have at lvl 18 thanks to mr/lvl his shield lasts 1.5 second, it is really hard to block damage with it.

and finally his CC are trash, and his damage are what an assassin has divided by 2.

Best princess EU1 votes

kassadin's damages are what an assassin should have, riot should nerf the other.

Mhihnj1 votes

what's worse is, I am seeing a certain blue fish everywhere

Sahn Uzal4 votes

I would also like to mention the fact that Kassadin has a ''Deep Terror'' skin that is not a direct reference to Davy Jones. Which, ofcourse, is unacceptable. https://media0.giphy.com/media/uHnDWCVbSEnHW/200.gif

forresto1 votes

I prefer the mass effect skin. more glowy.

Catastrop1 votes

Actually it's "Deep One" which is a reference to essentially frog people from Lovecraftian Lore....or maybe you knew and were just making a joke and I'm an idiot...

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Just making a joke bud =P

Catastrop1 votes

Gosh I need to stop taking everything on the boards seriously >.<.

Anu3isII3 votes

His mobility has a very low cooldown and does not need a target to use it at the cost of high mana cost when spammed...

And the argument "he is worse than Akali" is just bad ... Akali has a clunky as hell kit, and her burst is nowhere near the burst of classic Q-E-R-AA-W combo that Kassadin has. Also, most of the champions you mentioned don't really offer reliable burst damage from ranged attacks, most of them have only one longer range ability actually (with LeBlanc being the only exception).

Now the counterargument would be that the assassins you mentioned offer far more damage in an all-in. Well, yes they do, but they really have to engage their enemies and be right in their face for doing that, some of them don't even have a choice sometimes (poor Diana). So less risks, less rewards for Kassadin.

And now you say in most of the AP match-ups you are outranged... when almost every Assassin you mentioned is actually having far less area of action in the game, or far less reliable.

You keep repeating that he feels awful to play, can you just say why? In some posts where Riot responds, they actually want to know what is the "problem", and think about it.

Also, they never nerfed him to the ground... every change they made directly to him were arguably balance changes with the role of moving power from one thing to another, and they never removed something without compensation buffs.

Again, if you just feel awful playing him, better tells what makes you feel awful. If you just don't like the way he functions, then I don't know what would you like about him...

Melledoneus1 votes

He feels awful to play because he has to go into melee to utilize his kit to the fullest, and not nearly as strong as other champions who do the same. Ekko, the utility assassin, deals more damage both from afar and up close than Kassadin. Kassadin's damage isn't nearly enough to help him fulfill his role as an assassin. His poke in lane is outranged and out-damaged by most poke abilities in the mid lane. Which brings me to my next point.

When I said "most AP matchups," I was referring to mages as a whole. There are very few AP champions that have to get in Kassadin's ideal range to harass him. That being said, those that can easily outperform him in damage. He neither excels at range nor in melee, he's a weird mix of both that can't seem to do well in either area.

A good example of an AP assassin is Diana. Moderate poke, but her power lies in getting into melee range. She has a defense buff that doubles as an all-in tool. That is good design.

Anu3isII3 votes

Ekko does not have anything near Kassadin's damage from afar, and the only parts of his kit that are 100% reliable are his Passive, his first Q damage part (in melee range), his W Passive and and his E, which all require him to get very close to his enemies. His W active and his R are unreliable from many points of view, and most of the times they will just be some zoning tools that shield/heal Ekko.

Yes, Kassadin's burst damage is low, but, compared to many Assassins, his DPS is very high and does not rely on one single combo. Yes, one usage of each ability isn't amazing on paper, but when you look at the fact that his Ultimate has a 6/4/2 cooldown without CDR, with a potential of: Maximum magic damage: 240 / 300 / 360 (+ 60% AP) (+ 6% maximum mana), you have to realize that his all-in is one of the deadliest. The only limitation he has is mana.

About the AP match-ups, what I wanted to say is that everyone of the Assassins you mentioned struggles against higher range opponents, with the only exception being Zed and LeBlanc. Every Assassin gets some tools to survive tho, and in Kassadin's case, his Passive, his Q's shield and his W mana restoration help him manage himself until level 6. His Ultimate will solve almost any problem Kassadin met in the early game.

I love Diana as a champion, but from many points of view, her kit is as binary as Akali's. Her poke is decent, not really reliable and not as strong as any other AP mage. If she wants to kill somebody, most of the times she would be forced to all-in. If she can kill that person, she will engage, if she can't, she won't. Also, if she is caught by somebody she can't fight, she can't really run away. Her mobility comes only when she wants to engage, not disengage.

Overall, Kassadin is one of those champions that has Ranged and Reliable tools, lots of Mobility on very low Cooldown (so a significant amount of map pressure), and high AoE DPS damage in teamfights (E+R). His only real weakness is the weak early game and partially difficult to manage Mana (but gets easier and easier as the game goes), but in terms of reliability, he is one of the most reliable champions you can have at levels 11 and 16 when he gets to upgrade his Ult.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

Ekko does not have anything near Kassadin's damage from afar, and the only parts of his kit that are 100% reliable are his Passive, his first Q damage part (in melee range), his W Passive and and his E, which all require him to get very close to his enemies. His W active and his R are unreliable from many points of view, and most of the times they will just be some zoning tools that shield/heal Ekko.

What I was trying to say was that while Ekko's damage is delayed, he provides more utility and overall DPS than Kassadin who lacks that utility, which I found a bit odd. Riot probably forgot to mention that assassins shouldn't have so much CC and mobility that they should balance their damage around it. But Mr. Dash-into-Blink is still dealing more damage while the main reason Kassadin is kept weak is his main thing.

Yes, Kassadin's burst damage is low, but, compared to many Assassins, his DPS is very high and does not rely on one single combo. Yes, one usage of each ability isn't amazing on paper, but when you look at the fact that his Ultimate has a 6/4/2 cooldown without CDR, with a potential of: Maximum magic damage: 240 / 300 / 360 (+ 60% AP) (+ 6% maximum mana), you have to realize that his all-in is one of the deadliest. The only limitation he has is mana.

However, Kassadin relies on his opponent being alone, or the enemy team to not be together. He has to literally jump on top of his target to deal the damage, which depends on him walking right up to the enemy team, ulting onto their carry, and proceeding to take 3 seconds to combo. It's almost suicidal. With the pitiful range on his ultimate, Kassadin can no longer flank properly without help.

About the AP match-ups, what I wanted to say is that everyone of the Assassins you mentioned struggles against higher range opponents, with the only exception being Zed and LeBlanc. Every Assassin gets some tools to survive tho, and in Kassadin's case, his Passive, his Q's shield and his W mana restoration help him manage himself until level 6. His Ultimate will solve almost any problem Kassadin met in the early game.

Most of the assassins struggle against ranged opponents because they're out of range. Talon? Melee. Fizz? Melee. Akali? Melee. That limitation allows mages to dominate the first part of the laning phase and get a lead before the assassin becomes strong enough to jump on them. However, Kassadin doesn't really reach that point like most assassins until late game. Assassins aren't meant for late game, since their strategy becomes a lot less viable when teams are grouping up. So why make an assassin scaling rather than give him the early-mid game power he needs?

I love Diana as a champion, but from many points of view, her kit is as binary as Akali's. Her poke is decent, not really reliable and not as strong as any other AP mage. If she wants to kill somebody, most of the times she would be forced to all-in. If she can kill that person, she will engage, if she can't, she won't. Also, if she is caught by somebody she can't fight, she can't really run away. Her mobility comes only when she wants to engage, not disengage.

Which is good design overall. Sure, it's binary, it's no Ekko or Azir with flashy mechanics and complicated movements. However, Diana does one thing good, and it can be used against her if played correctly. If your team groups up and peels for their carries, Diana will have a harder time getting to them. If not, she gets to them and potentially kills them. She has windows of power, AKA her ultimate cooldown. If she misses her Q, her window is cut in half. If she fails her ultimates, she has nothing but a shield to save her. Which means that she can fight really hard, but can't run away from them. She's an all-in champion with a kit designed for that.

Overall, Kassadin is one of those champions that has Ranged and Reliable tools, lots of Mobility on very low Cooldown (so a significant amount of map pressure), and high AoE DPS damage in teamfights (E+R). His only real weakness is the weak early game and partially difficult to manage Mana (but gets easier and easier as the game goes), but in terms of reliability, he is one of the most reliable champions you can have at levels 11 and 16 when he gets to upgrade his Ult.

I understand where you're coming from. But that's exactly the problem: assassins shouldn't have to hit late game to become assassins. They're meant to get early leads, shut down carries early, get leads, take out important targets before they become too powerful. If an assassin has to wait until his target is too strong and too protected to take down, then there's no point. I think Kassadin needs to be shifted to be an early game champion who can poke, all-in, but not both without losing some power. It's absurd that he fails at being an assassin more than the ever-ridiculed post-nerf Akali.

Anu3isII1 votes

{quoted}

I understand where you're coming from. But that's exactly the problem: assassins shouldn't have to hit late game to become assassins. They're meant to get early leads, shut down carries early, get leads, take out important targets before they become too powerful. If an assassin has to wait until his target is too strong and too protected to take down, then there's no point. I think Kassadin needs to be shifted to be an early game champion who can poke, all-in, but not both without losing some power. It's absurd that he fails at being an assassin more than the ever-ridiculed post-nerf Akali.

The definition of Assassin differs from person to person. But, most of the times, it comes to 1 thing : snowball. Every time you ask somebody how to counter a classic Assassin, they will tell you "Don't die! And starve them of kills. If they don't get to kill anything, then they will be useless.". But if you get killed once, be prepared to be killed once again and almost forever.

What is the difference between a Kassadin and an average Assassin? His early game is weaker, his power spike comes in the late game, but... his snowball is continuous. If he gets kills, he gets ahead both in terms of Gold and Experience, leading to a faster power spike. And most importantly, he will never fall off or get starved.

I don't know how much you have played with Kassadin, but I can tell you one thing about him: If you are in a game with him, and you feel that you can win the game for your team, most of the times you will actually do that.

If I could choose any fed Assassin to secure a game, Kassadin would be the first one I would like to pick. Even if his target gets too protected or too strong, Kassadin in the late game can overcome anything!

I may not have the same way of thinking as any other Kassadin player, but when I play him, the pleasure comes as I scale into the game, more and more, until I explode when I xPeke the enemy Nexus and win.

forresto1 votes

Early game, he's all about taking advantage of the q shield to maximize trades. Depending who you face, you can abuse it to come out ahead on a per trade basis, and wear down either their HP, or MP. Once they get the hint you have more leeway to take cs.

by mid-game, you can use proper planning to find good times to all-in on your lane opponent,(wait for them to blow key cds, low mana etc.) or gank other lanes. His mobility makes either proposition very feasible.

late-mid game -> late-late is all about positioning, and timing. basically just like any other assassin you find a spot to the side, and then come in at the right moment when an important target overcommits. you don't always 100-0 people but you can. It's entirely reasonable to believe that you will against squishy targets. If you've got a lich bane, ROA, and 1-2 other AP items, you've probably got the damage you need for that depending where you are in the game. Of course, with him I tend to substitute ignite for flash since he has flash built into his kit.

like the other guy said, what he loses in instant damage he gains in sustained damage. by the time he's finished his burst he really only needs a few seconds till he can get back into the fray. most assassins have 10-15 second cds on their important abilities, but kass is more of a mage-fighter hybrid in that he weaves in and out of the fight as he sees fit.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

akali's burst is twice if not 3 times as kassadins until the absolute late game.

Anu3isII1 votes

Since the removal of the interaction between her E and the Q mark, Akali's burst has suffered a lot. All of her abilities have very long cast animations (and her ult still feels weird to use at low range, I don't know why it is so slow) and her auto attack is very slow (at least for me).

Even if you cancel animations perfectly, your combo is still rather slow, and doesn't compare to the speed of LeBlanc's/Talon's burst damage comes. Or that damn Rengar that one-shots you in less than a second.

In a normal situation, Akali's burst combo I think it would be something like Q-R-AA-E-AA-R (and use Gunblade whenever you want to). It still takes a bit of time, but if she was CC-ed, she would still proc her Q mark I think. That full combo in my opinion is comparable to Kassadin's burst combo (Q-E-R-AA-W), but slower.

If you meant that Akali has more damage in an all-in (she uses everything to take down a target), then yeah, she will outdamage Kassadin for almost the whole game, until as you said, Kassadin's scaling kicks off. But in terms of speed, her burst is too slow. Kassadin can do his burst in just a blink of an eye (I couldn't resist).

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

he has neither high ratios or high base damages. its bad all around.

Jalkan1 votes

Yeah but of all those champions that have mobility he has the most mobility once he gets a few mana items.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

It's funny that he is still picked more often than other melee AP assasin like Fizz, Diana and Akali (she is never picked in competitive, because how binary and easy to counter her kit is) and Katarina (picked 4 times - season 5 and once during World in season 4) in the pro scene. He is good in roaming, chasing and dirty fights (goes in, goes out). Also buying ROA, tear or any other semi-tanky item won't give you damage. It's not like Kassa doesn't scale. His burst combo is lower than some of the other assasins (LB has the highest AP assasin burst combo, but you have to land it and you die in the AOE lategame with her when you use W to go in), but he has it again after few seconds. Even something little like giving him MR per lvl and removing the charge system on his E will probably make him numero uno AP assasin. And he is not hard to play at all.

Skias1 votes

His dreadful early game. Just surviving it is a trial.

Drakylon1 votes

Honestly I've just been building off-tank on him when I do play him. item 3020 item 3027 item 3040 item 3025 item 3001 flex gives me enough mana to continuously spam 4-stack Rs and survive throughout a fight, especially considering how much mana W restores. This build also makes him slightly more competent at fighting tanks, though high-damage bruisers are still out of the question. Only problem is his outright terrible early and midgame, caused by a serious reliance on stacking items.

BloodyTompon1 votes

The itemisation changes benefited kass a lot. Pretty sure I saw him in some pro or amateur league about a week ago (LPL?). They're not going to buff him anytime soon.

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

Zed also has targeted damage. You can't avoid his R if he clicks it on you.

Melledoneus1 votes

The burst itself isn't targeted. He applies a debuff that relies on you getting hit by his abilities.

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

Zed's Ultimate will do 100% of Total AD as magic damage, regardless of whether or not he does anything else.

Melledoneus1 votes

...what?

Annoxis1 votes

Physical damage, not magical.

Niyumi1 votes

Uh, Kassadin is fine. More than fine, actually. I can entirely carry games with him. Sheen into ROA, and you can duel anyone who isn't named Zed or Talon from level 3. :P

Once you get Lichbane + ROA + Sorc Treads... it's GG. You can basically instagib their carries like a Rengar does.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

It's funny that he was supposed to be port of the Anti-mage from DOTA (before he got reworked). Still Kassa is easier to learn and master compared to Ekko. I expect Kassa to be reworked in the assasins update later this year along with Akali and Shaco (let's not forget Eve too). I doubt that other champion like Talon, LB, Kha, Zed and Diana will receive major changes. Noc, Rengar and Yi are fighters/assasin and will probably be changed when they decide to touch the melee DPS class along with Tryn, Xin and Yasuo.

Papa Slothy1 votes

i still love to play him, and he can be a monster but it's so risky to take him into hard matchups

Emerald Fang1 votes

Riot's just scared he'll reach a 97% ban rate again.

Honestly, Blitz is probably getting there. Almost every game he gets banned.

Exhume Duress1 votes

did anyone notice that Fizz was in all of those?

pasca1 votes

I am a Kassadin main and I can agree that champions do have a higher potential to do more burst, but that's only if you stick to building AP and don't add a lick of MR-penetration outside of the boots to your build.

My Rift-walk at 4-stack usually applies 1~1.5k on ADCs that only build a 25 MR item throughout the game. Nether-blade + Lich bane deals similar damage. His Q + E burst with Luden's echo or Rabadon's (don't buy both together... buy one and focus on a Magic Pen item) practically two-shots most damage carries.

His main attribute is not damage, though he has potential to rival most assassins in the damage category. His main focus is in mobility. Even so, those of you who say he doesn't deal as much damage as assassins simply follow his "recommended build" and don't apply any other build on him that you should.

RoA > Sorc boots > Archangels > Lich Bane are the items required to make his assassination potential boost to their peak potential.

RoA is a good defense item and it is pretty much required to rush on Kassadin for mana, hp, and small healing from its passive. The mana will give you more AP whenever you build Archangels.

Sorc Boots will pretty much make any mage you are laning against go from 30 MR to 5 if you include your runes and masteries into the mix... it practically destroys their defenses early/mid game.

Archangels is a must, but depending if you are ahead or behind, you will either want to build this or Lich bane first. If you're ahead, rush Archangels, if you are behind, Lich Bane and zone out their adc and mid-laner if you aren't too behind... otherwise, farm hard. It doesn't matter how far behind you fall, if you don't build this item, you're gambling your late game.

Lich Bane is an ESSENTIAL ITEM for Kassadin (Why it's in Situational, i'll NEVER KNOW). The damage stacks with his Nether-Blade Active and if you use R + W (enhanced with Lich Bane), you're sure to erase over half of an adc's HP by mid game. Just throw a Q and E afterwards and they should be dead.

From there, you can decide if you want an Hourglass (to counter a Fizz/Zed ult, a Vi ult, or to counter a ADC who got fed aggressively), Luden's echo (increases damage potential when you jump into a team fight with Rift Walk or Force Pulse), Rabadon's Deathcap (pure damage... especially helps with Lich Bane burst), Void Staff (not primarily to counter tanks, but to counter the MR that carries try so that you can zone them out), Abyssal (If there is hardly any MR on the enemy team and if you want to counter a mage who built the same item in order to deal more damage exclusively to you),

If you get those 4 primary items, you're sure to perform at least well enough to not be a burden on your team (unless you mess up entirely and miss the damage on your E + R).

PS: If you buy a morello, you might as well forfeit at 20 minutes. IDC if you're against a Swain, don't touch that WORTHLESS ITEM.

I hope this can help some of you guys.Kassadin + item 3100 and item 3003 = Win

PS: ... Thunderlords... always Thunderlords

pasca1 votes

Also, saying he is weak against AD match-ups is LAUGHABLE.

Tell me, how do you lose against a Zed mid? I can partially understand the need to argue that he can't beat Yasuo to a degree, but there is absolutely no way you should lose to Zed especially if you rush Zhonya's 2nd. It renders his ult completely useless and you can easily outburst him when he doesn't have it.

The Minion hunt1 votes

ok so kass has 2 ranged abilities, and we love all the ranged ad assassins (damit zed). he has 1 abilty to help vs magic damage and a passive that does the same for the range magic damage. almost no champ has a safer laning phase after lvl 6, how is any melee champ sticking to you? Kass is fine.

Catastrop1 votes

In my opinion, the problem with Kassadin is that he kept the traditional assassin formula, terrible lane phase and he needs to get ahead with kills, no exceptions. Other assassins have adopted this neutral state where they're not completely useless if they didn't get a kill in lane. Those assassins can easily just farm enough for component items and start their snowball. This is because they have the damage already but just need a bit of tankiness (Katarina getting a item 1057/item 3191) or they simply need damage because they have some defense mechanism that's built into their offense (ad assassins getting item 3134). Kassadin however needs to get both, and that comes in the form of item 3027. An item whose components aren't quite as useful on their own. He can get the Catalyst but then he lacks the damage to really do much to the point that only the really experienced Kassadin players can work with it or the enemy has to be stupid enough to keep taking Q's so he can go in for the kill. He could Blasting Wand but, well, he might as well be made of paper at that point for the enemy laner.

Frankly I think he's just outdated is why he struggles, hopefully they look at him in the assassin update.

Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter.

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