MSTU: Observations on Top Lane Tanks

ProfDrDeath··25 votes·2,958 views

Let's look at the initial performance of a few of the tanky titans of top after the big midseason update. All data is taken from LoLalytics.

FI: Most common first item MSTU: Mid Season Tank Update


Chogath : Stagnating. His performance looks not to have been impacted majorly. FI item 3027 Galio : Performace drop (about 49.5% to 48%). FI item 3068 Gragas : Drop in performance from about 50% to 48%. FI item 3068 Malphite : Major decrease from 52% to 49%. FI item 3068 Maokai : Stagnating. Interestingly, massively increased pick rate did not affect winrate too much. FI item 3068 Nautilus : Performance reduction from ~48% to about ~46%. FI item 3068 Poppy : Drop in performance, from 49% to 47% and falling. FI item 3068 Shen : Decrease in winrate, ~50% to ~48.5%. FI item 3068 Sion : Reduced performance, from about 52% to 49%. FI item 3068 Zac : Massive drop in performance, Riot really misjudged the power level of his rework. Winrate from about 52% to sub-40%!! FI item 3068

I am starting to see a pattern here: All tanks that were using Sunfire Cape as a first item are exhibiting a significant drop in their performance post-midseason.

Given the nerf to Sunfire and Bami's Cinder, that was to be expected. But what it really shows is, imo, how much Sunfire Cape was responsible for the strength of the top lane tanks in the last year (ever since its buffs in 6.1 and 6.3, top lane tanks were a staple of the meta).

What I am interested in is how tank builds and the top lane meta will evolve in the upcoming weeks. Will tanks in general or specific picks find ways to overcome the nerfs to Sunfire Cape? For instance, I can see Sion going for some AD early or Poppy taking up an early Sheen or Tiamat to melee it out with her counterparts. And were will competitive go with this? Will these changes herald the return of the top lane bruiser? Will Irelia have to be nerfed again? Finally, how is Riot going to save Zac? Will they revert the duration nerf to Elastic Slingshot's CC effect (I hope)? How will they make Q more fluid and less annoying to use?

117 Comments

Zero Skill Tank14 votes

Riot doesn't understand that fighters almost uniformly have sustain, and if you cut tanks damage they absolutely can't lane. Old Sunfire rush might have been cancer, but it was also a necessity. Tanks got tools for lategame, but nothing that would help them survive Darius and the like.

Ralanr16 votes

Honestly I think the main reason Maokai did so well in lane wasn't because of his ult, but because he was the only top lane tank with sustain.

Golden Tager X2 votes

Gragas DrMundo Chogath u wot m8

Ralanr9 votes

Mundo ain't a tank m8. The other two were rarely played in top.

Guyy Fieri1 votes

Mundos as much of a tank as Cho'gath...and cho gath top has actually seen a lot more play post the rework on his ult

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnarles Barkleyy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bYuQIwXF,comment-id=00010000000100000000,timestamp=2017-05-05T17:32:54.545+0000)

Mundos as much of a tank as Cho'gath...and cho gath top has actually seen a lot more play post the rework on his ult

Normally I'd disagree but I also don't see Cho'gath as a tank. He's more of an AP juggernaut imo.

So yeah, he's as much as a tank as Cho I guess. Which is, not really.

Ralanr7 votes

Either sunfire will get some changes or tanks might just rush a damage item.

Honestly idk. I do like the Doran shield change, but now I need to find better mana sustain.

ProfDrDeath7 votes

This.

Mana sustain is going to be a problem for these tanks, as well, given that the decreased damage of Sunfire will mean that they'll have to use their damage abilities more often.

In competitive, some tanks actually rush triple D-Ring for mana sustain...

Glory ln Death1 votes

I like me some Chilly Mittens for that sweet, sweet mana! Armor, CDR, mana, AOE damage and slow for waveclear and trading - what's not to love?

Ralanr1 votes

Lack of health imo. I really dislike rushing a non health item on Sion.

Plus often I feel the AS slow aura from frozen heart is too good to pass up over it.

Sahn Uzal6 votes

Guess I'll be rushing item 3512 more often as Sion more often now

AirKingNeo2 votes

Zzrot sucks though. Just buy stoneplate instead and you'll be better.

Ralanr2 votes

Stoneplate sucks as a first rush item, especially on Sion because of the lack of health (Sion needs at least one health item to pump up his health before his health stacking becomes relevant).

Sahn Uzal6 votes

??? ZZ'Rot is great, you just can't use it as braindead as you could before the change.

AirKingNeo2 votes

If Zzrot is a good item then why does barely anyone buy it?

Ralanr7 votes

Because mid people follow metas without their brain in my experience.

AirKingNeo3 votes

I play this game a lot. I barely see people buy Zzrot. Even high elo players stopped building the item.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

I like to build it on supports.

Right after I finish item 3092 item 2045 item 2055 item 3107 item 3190 item 3009 & item 3222 . You know, the core items for the role. (>_>)

AirKingNeo5 votes

Then allow me to give you a tip. item 3109 and item 3504 are much better choices. Knight's Vow especially due to it giving your ADC PD's passive but slightly better. It's very undervalued but huge. Ardent you your ADC is AA based or you've got a Kayle.

Seriously, no reason to really buy Zzrot on a support when other items exist that are more useful.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

I think you missed the joke. Pull the magnifying glass back a bit.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Stoneplate is probably better than Zzrot at this point, unless your lane is getting shoved that hard.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

No you just have no idea how to use the item, I can tell that from your comment alone. One would just place old Zz'Rot in lane and then roam, letting the portal take care of minions, new ZZ'Rot portal is an amazing tower killing tool.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Zz'rot isn't that good for killing turrets. It depends on the matchup and kits of the champs.

If you have more waveclear than the opponent, you're better off shoving the lane and roaming, which stoneplate helps (especially if you choose to TP bot).

Or, you can go for the New Herald, for which getting combat stats would be more helpful for.

OR you can freeze the lane or bully the opponent out of Cs.

I don't usually buy zzrot as an offensive item, and don't see why you would do it.

Whenever an enemy laner buys it, the sacrificed combat stats they would've gotten otherwise makes them get dunked on hard.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Yeah ok buddy, you do you

Troll for Trump1 votes

Why not discuss instead of being pretentious

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

Sunfire was always a terrible item on Shen, honestly, it was good in lane but fell off so fucking hard after midgame and in teamfights.

item 3153 item 3078 item 3022 item 3053

All decent damage items, Bork is good, Triforce is decent, Frozen Mallet means you snowball a million times harder, although not recommended if you're having trouble winning your own lane unless it's a problem of being kited, and Sterak's buffs made it decent.

I tried going full tank Shen, and honestly it didn't work. I couldn't carry because I had nowhere near enough damage to kill carries in teamfights, or hell, even 1v1 carries. With Bork, Triforce, Frozen Mallet, or Steraks, or any combination of the four (might be others too)

In my more recent games, I've been buying two or three or hell even 4 damage items (when I go jungle shen, I get Bloodrazor), and I've gotten multiple S's and S+'s and have a much higher winrate.

Sahn Uzal16 votes

item 3748 If you skip Sunfire, you litterally have no waveclear

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bYuQIwXF,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-05-04T20:31:57.856+0000)

item 3748 If you skip Sunfire, you litterally have no waveclear

I just pick up a Tiamat and build it into a Rav later, Titanic is a terrible item in my experience. It gives damage, but it doesn't give enough dps to kill anyone from 100 health in a timely fashion.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

On Shen it's definetly gonna provide you more than Ravenous would lol

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bYuQIwXF,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-04T21:23:14.069+0000)

On Shen it's definetly gonna provide you more than Ravenous would lol

The onhit damage is minimal, and I like the AoE of Rav better over a cone. Also I like having a lot of damage - with a heavy damage Shen build item 1419 item 3153 item 3022 item 3053 item 3074 item 3047 I've killed a Lux on my own with an E over a wall, in about 5 hits. That being said I usually upgrade Tiamat last item anyway, since Tiamat is a lot smoother for me.

50000000000000002 votes

Shen already has enough single target DPS on his Q. Having durability is more important in most scenarios.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Shen already has enough single target DPS on his Q. Having durability is more important in most scenarios.

It's decent, but the ability to kill a carry in 5 Q's is sooo good in teamfights, and the ability to bully your lane opponent with heavy damage/Frozen Mallet lets you snowball a million times harder. Frozen Mallet also gives some CC that Shen badly lacks, especially if you miss E, but even if you dont, for after E ends.

Melledoneus2 votes

Full tank Shen can kill a carry. DPS Shen gets outshined like crazy because his entire existence sucks at synergizing with damage builds.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Full tank Shen can kill a carry. DPS Shen gets outshined like crazy because his entire existence sucks at synergizing with damage builds.

Not quickly, and not mid game.

I've fought tank Shens as Quinn. They take about 60% of my health when they land a good taunt.

With my Bork or Frozen Mallet, I've killed my target super easily. Once faced a Riven, they were dumb and decided to finish their fast combo and then auto a bit more, without dashing away. That Riven died. Tank Shen simply can't do that.

I've killed a Lux in 5 hits with my more damage oriented builds.

Melledoneus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bYuQIwXF,comment-id=000400000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-04T23:45:54.615+0000)

Not quickly, and not mid game.

Mid game is actually the only time you can reliably duel a carry. After that lifesteal gets disgusting.

I've fought tank Shens as Quinn. They take about 60% of my health when they land a good taunt.

So 60% of your HP as Quinn was about 400 maximum? That is one squishy as hell Quinn. Also, taunt damage scales with HP, so...

With my Bork or Frozen Mallet, I've killed my target super easily. Once faced a Riven, they were dumb and decided to finish their fast combo and then auto a bit more, without dashing away. That Riven died. Tank Shen simply can't do that.

Shen shits on Riven even HARDER if he builds tank. If Riven can't kill someone with her combo she's a sitting duck. The only champion Shen arguably counters is Riven.

I've killed a Lux in 5 hits with my more damage oriented builds.

I can do that easily with auto-cancelling titanic procs. Land taunt, which snaps into an auto at the right range, pull Q, auto-proc titanic, auto again. Boom, crap ton of damage that can burst down any squishy.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Mid game is actually the only time you can reliably duel a carry. After that lifesteal gets disgusting.

First off, carry =/= adc. Second, once you snowball, you destroy them. Third, you beat them early too if they decide to top for some reason, even harder once you get Frozen Mallet and they can't kite.

So 60% of your HP as Quinn was about 400 maximum? That is one squishy as hell Quinn. Also, taunt damage scales with HP, so...

Huh? I tihnk he did about 700 damage, this was when I was new to Quinn and had no cleaver.

Shen shits on Riven even HARDER if he builds tank. If Riven can't kill someone with her combo she's a sitting duck. The only champion Shen arguably counters is Riven.

I main Riven, and honestly that's not true. Playing around the block is all she needs to do, and build correctly.

I can do that easily with auto-cancelling titanic procs. Land taunt, which snaps into an auto at the right range, pull Q, auto-proc titanic, auto again. Boom, crap ton of damage that can burst down any squishy.

What the hell when I do that I only get about 40% of their health??? That's the whole reason I chose to get more damage in the first place

Anhartamin2 votes

[deleted]

Asayake 5150glow2 votes

{quoted}

worst low elo build ive ever seen, its actually super fucking bad

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=cant+hold+me+now

It's definitely been working.

Melledoneus8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bYuQIwXF,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-05-04T20:23:26.285+0000)

Sunfire was always a terrible item on Shen

I stopped reading after this. Unless you are playing Shen jungle, Sunfire is his item. So draw your blade and commit sudoku before I cut you down in honorary traditional Ionian combat.

Chønklord2 votes

Seppuku*.

Sudoku is a game.

Melledoneus5 votes

I don't want to get banned from the Boards for telling a guy to kill himself.

macromite1 votes

but you will tell a guy that if he doesn't play sudoku you will cut him down. of course I support that, but is funny to me.

Melledoneus1 votes

'Cut you down' is not colloquial speech, and in the context will obviously be taken as a joke. Telling somebody the samurai equivalent of 'kys' is not something I want to dabble into at the moment.

macromite1 votes

I just find it funny that people telling other to kill themselves is considered worse than people telling others that they are going to kill them.

It amuses me, because with the same context both of those ought to equal out to the same amount of problem, in a situation where telling someone that you are going to kill them would be considered a joke telling someone that they should end themselves should also be considered a joke, and likewise in the opposing situation, where the person earnestly means it it should be taken literally and very seriously.

But it isn't. Humans are strange creatures.

Melledoneus1 votes

Indeed.

Ooray2 votes

Dude its hasn't even been a week. Tanks now have to change their play style towards teamfight and splitting rather than trying to win lane and now it brings in damage top laners to change the meta. We've had league of tanks for so long, this should be welcomed.

Anags9 votes

Tanks have been meta in 1 role for this season. What are you talking about?

Support, jungle would be the only other possible roles and they haven't been meta in either for a while.

And it's not like they dominated top lane before this patch.

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