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11/19/2014 - RIP Melee Champions

Nocturnes·Nov 21, 2014·5 votes·1,216 views

- "Your death has been ordained."

Martial Poise
Targeted dash on every attack and/or cast of Pierce which is increased by 25% whilst dashing backwards (good luck anyone without infinite gap-closers...)
Sentinel
20% of the target's maximum health in magic damage every 8 seconds at max level (because tanks were doing too well at tanking; MR itemization just got nerfed too so why not...)
Let's tack on a free moving ward too because fuck junglers...
Rend
256 possible stacks without a cap on dragon or baron (because fuck junglers again) and a slow (because dashing on every attack just wasn't enough to keep people in range or out of range...)
Fate's Call
A 1400 range Thresh lantern on steroids for your booty call of the game that then becomes an AoE knock-up that also happens to disengage your ally to their maximum attack range at the same time (I don't even know anymore...)

God forbid I want to play or or or or or, I don't know, another 50% of the cast of characters in this game...

But #LCSBIGPLAYS right? Right...?

30 Comments

Fury and EmperorNov 21, 20143 votes

God forbid I want to play (...)

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141104215638/leagueoflegends/images/5/51/Martial_Poise.png http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141104215638/leagueoflegends/images/5/51/Martial_Poise.png http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141104215638/leagueoflegends/images/5/51/Martial_Poise.png http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141104215638/leagueoflegends/images/5/51/Martial_Poise.png

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140115131146/leagueoflegends/images/a/aa/Wither.png SQUIRM

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141104215638/leagueoflegends/images/5/51/Martial_Poise.png ............................ http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141104215638/leagueoflegends/images/5/51/Martial_Poise.png ............................

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20143 votes

wither reduces attack speed and movespeed heavily

kalista's jump distance and frequency are balanced around her movespeed and attackspeed

so honestly nasus is pretty good against her. even if he can't catch her he can destroy her mobility and damage output in a fight.

Kuroi86Nov 21, 20141 votes

Only issue is Susan getting into Whither Range.

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20141 votes

Only issue is Susan getting into Whither Range.

The range on wither is 600

Kalista's auto attack range is 550.

Kuroi86Nov 21, 20141 votes

Hm, thought it had been nerfed shorter than that. So not impossible, just a pain in the butt.

SmokingPuffinNov 21, 20142 votes

Immobile melee champions have bigger problems than Kalista. It's not like Gangplank was in a good state a month ago, either.

NocturnesNov 21, 20141 votes

True, but exacerbating mobility creep as blatantly as is depicted in Kalista doesn't do anyone any favours.

SmokingPuffinNov 21, 20141 votes

True, but exacerbating mobility creep as blatantly as is depicted in Kalista doesn't do anyone any favours.

I rather like what CertainlyT has done with Yasuo and Kalista in making extreme mobility a conditional thing. Much more interesting design than Kassadin, and it affords quite a bit of counterplay...

...to champions with the right kind of kit.

FyshinaTuxNov 21, 20141 votes

Ironically enough, Yasuo is a great example of everything that is wrong with Riot's champion design...

His kit is so overloaded that when they "balanced" him, his winrate plummeted to near trash tier (46% iirc). Which basically means that he has so much going on in his kit, that he'll be near impossible to properly balance out to that ~50% winrate.

I foresee the same kind of treatment coming to kalista.

Fury and EmperorNov 21, 20141 votes

Ironically enough, Yasuo is a great example of everything that is wrong with Riot's champion design...

His kit is so overloaded that when they "balanced" him, his winrate plummeted to near trash tier (46% iirc). Which basically means that he has so much going on in his kit, that he'll be near impossible to properly balance out to that ~50% winrate.

I foresee the same kind of treatment coming to kalista.

Actually, he was balanced at ~50% before his last nerf, but the community kept complaining that he was OP ("winrate means nothing") so Riot had no choice but to nerf him into unviability.

See also: LeBlanc, who ate a nerf at 45% winrate for the exact same reason.

SmokingPuffinNov 21, 20141 votes

Ironically enough, Yasuo is a great example of everything that is wrong with Riot's champion design...

His kit is so overloaded that when they "balanced" him, his winrate plummeted to near trash tier (46% iirc). Which basically means that he has so much going on in his kit, that he'll be near impossible to properly balance out to that ~50% winrate.

I foresee the same kind of treatment coming to kalista.

Yasuo is just another high skill cap champion. If you balance that sort of thing for high level play, it's going to suck in average games. See also Twitch Rengar LeeSin . None of those champions are weak, but they all have bad win rates.

In other news, 50% solo win rate is not an appropriate goal for champion design. The game should be balanced around correct play, not people constantly overextending into Rammus .

TehNACHONov 21, 20141 votes

To be fair, GP, Garen, and Olaf all have really out of date kits in general.

NocturnesNov 21, 20143 votes

While true, think of Sion though. He was just remade and yet his chances of sticking to Kalista are effectively zero.

TehNACHONov 21, 20141 votes

That's not Sion's job though?

Sion is SUPPOSED to be a slow, lumbering, AOE juggernaut. He's not some hunter designed to run people down Rengar , he's not the 'charge headfirst and hurt everything you can' sort of champion DrMundo , in fact Sion's archetype is the exact one that Kalista's passive is designed around. Sion should be standing in the middle of team fights trying to CC as many people as possible at a time, not hunting down individual targets.

JixxNov 21, 20141 votes

"20% of the target's maximum health in magic damage every 8 seconds at max level"

This is only if their soul bound is also attacking you at the same time. If that's a melee, no problem. If it's a squishy support, one of them will die.

Also, pretty weird because Sion, Garen, Olaf and Nasus all have skills that can either slow you WAY down, get right on top of you or chain CC you after getting on top of you for days.

JbelsNov 21, 20141 votes

Bro, Nasus's wither is pretty much the death of Kalista when it comes to catching her out. Besides, Nasus is kinda like Shen. He doesn't win lanes, he wins games

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20141 votes

Interesting because I made several kalistas rage extremely hard last night with my Riven. Last I checked she's a melee champion.

FyshinaTuxNov 21, 20141 votes

She's also a broken melee champ. No, that's not a pun on the name of her Q... and no, I'm not saying her damage is broken (although it is pretty stupid how strong she gets once she hits lvl 6...)

The fact that she has 4 gap-closers on 2 abilities is a bit much. Add in no resource, a stun and a knock up, and an AoE execute, a massive HP Shield, and a massive AD Steroid...

Just sayin'.

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20141 votes

if she is so broken then why is she not used in LCS? they nerfed her pretty hard this season. i can give you more examples than just riven who will beat kalista in a 1v1, that's just the champion i was personally using last night.

there are a lot of champions that can shut her down in lane. cait, lucian, quinn, graves will heavily outtrade her in bottom. trundle, tryndamere, yasuo, zed, and nasus will outscale her in top

Fury and EmperorNov 21, 20141 votes

if she is so broken then why is she not used in LCS?

Because... she was released... one day ago?

FyshinaTuxNov 21, 20141 votes

I'm not saying there aren't champions that can beat Kalista outside of Riven. The list you just provided however, Cait has the longest range in the game up until level (whenever Tristana gets higher attack range) or Kog'Maw getting max rank W(is it his W???), Lucian is a lane bully with some pretty sick mobility, Quinn... let's be real, no one plays Quinn Kappa, and Graves actually requires skill to play (I doubt he'd beat Kalista in anything but higher level play).

As for the other half of the list, outscaling means nothing if you can't make it to late game, and there's no way that Tryndamere, Trundle, or Nasus will ever win lane against a Kalista of equal skill because they'll never be able to STICK to her to do their damage/zone/trade/anything.

Personally I think her kit is overloaded, and I think she'll be STUPID easy to play, that being said, I haven't gotten her yet, and I don't plan on getting her until she drops to 6300 IP in the store.

As for Riven not being played in LCS, it probably has something to do with her lack of health regen and her short shield length, doesn't make her any less broken.

Drunk RummateNov 21, 20141 votes

Okay well I do have her, and she's actually really difficult to play. The dashes actually telegraph your movements and it makes landing skillshots like morgana bindings surprisingly easy. At higher attackspeeds you have to click extremely fast to keep up with her movement potential. Oftentimes you have to guess which direction to go because your auto attacks don't sync up with when you want to dodge a skillshot, unlike other dashes which you can simply hold onto until necessary.

Kalista actually loses 1v1 to most ranged champions due to having no steroid or burst mechanic. All of her damage comes from sustained output and it's loaded into her E, which comes at the end of a fight rather than early. So if Lucian or Graves or Quinn jump in and 1 shot you with their combo... well suffice it to say you're not going to do very much damage.

Regarding top lane kalista, she doesn't have a support for her passive W damage which is a huge part of her lane phase. She has low mobility outside of combat so she's incapable of pushing up past the outer turret without the risk of dying in a 2v1. She has to push her lane to harass which leaves her open to ganks. Melee versus range top lane you just have to give up CS. That's life. You build a little bit of armor and sustain and you come back to lane post-6 with the ability to farm and catch up, and you offer far more to the teamfight as a frontline, especially considering their team will have a weak frontline due to having a kalista top.

Oh... and if you're going to simply list Riven's 2 greatest weaknesses, admit that they prevent her from being LCS viable, and then disregard them as if they don't matter... well I guess I just won't be convincing you of anything because that's just stubborn.

KidSpectreNov 21, 20141 votes

I'ma have to build Full AD Sion with item 3800 so I can two shot her. Alternatively, item 3110 , since her her dash is tied to her completing auto attacks.

RyokosanNov 21, 20141 votes

I'ma have to build Full AD Sion with so I can two shot her. Alternatively, , since her her dash is tied to her completing auto attacks.

charging* the dash activates when she is "starting" the AA. not then she completes it

KidSpectreNov 21, 20141 votes

I'ma have to build Full AD Sion with so I can two shot her. Alternatively, , since her her dash is tied to her completing auto attacks.

charging* the dash activates when she is "starting" the AA. not then she completes it

She won't dash until the animation finishes, though, so it STILL slows her down.

JixxNov 21, 20141 votes

A lack of research from OP.

KidSpectreNov 21, 20141 votes

more practically: item 3110 item 3143 Also: Malphite Rock beats scissors.

FyshinaTuxNov 21, 20141 votes

Some people would say that champions should be balanced around the majority of the player-base. Which would be Bronze/Silver... by a LONG shot...

I just hit Gold V recently, and according to http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FyshinaTux , I'm in the top 27% of players... which means that nearly 3/4 of the player base on NA is in Bronze and Silver.

Balancing to even Gold and up, is only catering to a small amount of the player-base.

redniwediSNov 21, 20141 votes

As a Garen main I can say I have yet to have trouble against a Kalista. I've even managed to snowball off a Kalista/Gnar top lane. Maybe it's because there are no good Kalista players just yet, but maybe it's because people keep underestimating melee champs.

FyshinaTuxNov 21, 20141 votes

No, assuming that the only viable champions are champions played in LCS is stubborn.

Master Yi is NEVER played in LCS, and I would bet he never WILL be played in LCS... He's stupid strong in solo queue though. Almost strong enough that I'd say he's... Viable!

It's easy to say "oh, just wait til you get armor and some sustain and you can come back", but how frequently does a game actually pan out that way? I've even seen Pro players on stream not do the "oh, just do this, it's easy..." for whatever reason and end up losing games to "OP Champions" because they didn't do the "oh, just do this and it's easy peasy" strat against them.

Seeing as you place such a high emphasis on Pro play (so as to say that the only viable champions are played in LCS), then explain that for me. How can pro players lose to these OP champions when it just takes something as simple as waiting until you get some armor and sustain...?

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