Can Ivern's ult Daisy not be able to be Smited or picked up by Syndra

Doseqis·Oct 17, 2016·91 votes·5,948 views

I get that it is pretty cool for the enemy to do things like this but having my ult disabled by a syndra for 90% of a fight or just smited and killed instantly is really annoying and ruins his ult entirely just based on one ability and summoner, If Riot still wants it to be smiteable then at least give Daisy some damage reduction so a Lucian ult clipping her doesn't just 1 shot her in a half a second.

Just on a side note Daisy's AI is really clunky and the Line that shows who She is following/Attacking is almost impossible to see in fights.

92 Comments

AnCaOct 17, 201633 votes

Its been like this for every other summon pet. Its probably intented.

But I do agree Dasiy's AI is garbo. Just like Tibbers have a really garbo AI, but since Tibbers can be combo'd with annie stun on arrival, this AI issue has been overlooked all these years. But Daisy AI is so apprantly bad because Daisy basically does nothing on arrival, and you will notice all its clunckyness since the whole point of it is getting some damage over its summon duration. And that get really annoying since the AI is so stupid.

Also, did you know that if you leave Tibbers to chase someone and move him out of range so he would teleport to you, but the same thing won't happen with Daisy?. In order to make Daisy teleport back to you, you have to constantly issue command for it to "walk" out of range and teleport back to you. Otherwise, it will slowly walk toward you to rejoin you. I don't know why this is the case but it is.

LXIIOct 17, 201626 votes

Tibbers does massive damage on cast, who cares if he dies immediately? The Maiden has a ton of hp and can solo push lanes, not sure if she's smiteable, but if she is that's a fair tradeoff for a 6th team member. There are usually a ton of voidlings so it doesn't matter there either, same with spiderlings.

Daisy doesn't do anything besides auto attack people and you need 3 successful autos just to make an impact.

EDIT: Why is this getting downvoted? I thought they were fair points.. at the very least reply with something.

DraqoneOct 17, 20166 votes

Tibbers also has an AoE aura which means he doesn't need to hit anyone, he can just stand there. :D

LXIIOct 17, 20165 votes

That too. Every other pet is substantially more useful than current Daisy. I still love her, and we have some good times, but she does go down too easily sometimes.

The Yetii RiderOct 17, 20163 votes

Every minion/pet is Smiteable and affected by Nunu's Consume. This includes:

Zyra plants Heimerdinger turrets Yorick Ghouls The Maiden Tibbers Daisy Shaco boxes Malzahar voidlings Zzrot dudes

MrBuffingtonOct 17, 20161 votes

It's because Daisy can have such a massive impact; AoE knock-up potentially every few seconds is huge, and even if she doesn't get it off, the threat alone gives your team a lot of breathing room. You just need to use the spell properly to take advantage of what it offers.

LXIIOct 17, 20161 votes

Which matters little if she gets 1 shot on cast.

MrBuffingtonOct 17, 20161 votes

It matters a lot, since the enemy just used a bunch of cooldowns on her. Which you can take advantage of if you're good enough. You can also pay attention to a fight and figure out which cooldowns have been used before you cast your ult, so Daisy has a bigger impact.

Troll for TrumpOct 17, 20161 votes

You don't need cooldowns, either Ivern or Daisy will die in a few AAs from the ADC. He should be in the back/middle like Sona or Lulu, but he can't be as proactive as those two because he's gated by cooldowns. His most "active role" in teamfights is bush spamming, which doesn't do anything, and his E. His R gets killed as fast as Maiden, but unlike Maiden isn't a good splitpusher.

MrBuffingtonOct 18, 20161 votes

Daisy will die in a few AAs from the ADC

Which means the ADC isn't focusing your teammates, which means the ADC will get destroyed by your teammates so long as you're not an idiot and send Daisy in alone on a suicide mission.

but he can't be as proactive as those two because he's gated by cooldowns.

Because Lulu doesn't have cooldowns. Right.

His most "active role" in teamfights is bush spamming, which doesn't do anything, and his E

Also his Q is hard engage for the entire team. And Daisy is a mini tank with an AoE knockup. So basically his entire kit.

His R gets killed as fast as Maiden, but unlike Maiden isn't a good splitpusher.

Also unlike the Maiden, Ivern can actually control Daisy.

inb4 "but Daisy's AI sucks." Sure, but that's basically a bugfix, not an actual issue with how Daisy's supposed to work.

Troll for TrumpOct 18, 20161 votes

Most adcs will ignore it due to item 3085 or some shenanigans. Twitch Jinx Sivir are the meta ones that won't care Ezreal Jhin Vayne will just ignore it because they can move faster than a melee slow moving AI like Daisy. Tibbers on the other hand has the instastun and ms buff with Annie's E and "enrage". Maiden has range. Here's the thing; when do you throw in Daisy? If you do it in the beginning, they'll immediatly back off. His cast time is REALLY long, and he's really slow. They don't need to burn abilities to get away either, they can just walk away. In the middle of the teamfight, he'll suffer the same problems as Maiden; instadeleted in anyways in the middle of it. Being so cloddy means it can't do much later on. Yorick's Maiden can splitpush hard, Annie's is... more expendable, and, once again has the stun latched onto it alongside with enrage. Tibbers will also have a prescence even after Annie dies, albeit brief.

Lulu's cooldowns are much shorter compared to Ivern's, as well as generally being more practical.

His Q isn't a hard engage. Far from it. He works better being the 2nd or third one into the fight. If your engaging with him and the opponent is close enough to you that you can hit them with the Q while being in the back, then it's bronze.

Daisy's problem, while some of it does lie in the AI and bugs, also lies with how slow and clunky (she?) moves. She has to walk up, without any CC, or ms haste, which is too slow with all the mobility cc and rage effects. The way to accomodate for it is to abuse the broken Rylai's which is one of the best items for Ivern, letting Daisy slow every AA. The gapcloser is tied to his Q. His entire kit is pretty much tied into his Q, but he has little else to rely on. Morg, for example, also has a powerful Q, but she can fallback with her R and E, which are much less conditional and clunky than Ivern.

MrBuffingtonOct 18, 20161 votes

Runaan's does 1/4th the damage of a regular auto attack. If the ADC is focusing a non-champion, your team effectively has 75-100% damage reduction from the ADC during that period. That's massive. Furthermore, it's bronze mentality to mindlessly focus the ADC. If the ADC runs away, congratulations, they might as well be dead for the purposes of the teamfight, since they're not contributing at all.

Tibbers gets an AoE stun once, maybe, if Annie has her stun charged when she casts it. Daisy can have multiple AoE knockups in a fight. That's a massive threat, and your opponents are torn between two bad decisions; focus Daisy and get destroyed by you and your team, or focus your team and have Daisy interrupt you anyways.

You can't have some braindead formula for when you use your spells; that comes with actually understanding the situation you're in during the game and acting accordingly. That awareness comes with getting better at the game. You look for the proper openings to cast your spell, same as any other ability.

Lulu's cooldowns, at max rank, are, respectively: 7, 12, 10. Ivern's are: 12, 0.5 (charge system), and 8. What are you talking about?

Again, bronze mentality to mindlessly tunnel on the backline. Furthermore, hard CC that's tied to a targeted gap close for your entire team could not be anymore textbook hard engage.

Daisy can also gapclose with Ivern's Q. Ivern's E is one of the most powerful shields in the game, especially since it deals AoE damage and 70% slow. His W is one of the biggest new mechanics in the game. Ivern's power comes from knowing how to use him; of course there are going to be players that suck at him, he's a difficult champion with a ton of new mechanics. That's not Ivern being bad; that's players having no idea what to do with him. The solution is to get better at the game, not kneejerk buff Ivern.

dunkeroniOct 18, 20161 votes

If you as Ivern die in "a few AAs from the ADC" then you're definitely building wrong. Ivern is a tank. That's how you build him. Combined with Daisy, they have over 9500 health to get through late game. His more "active role" is to peel and shield teammates and set up snares for his fighters to engage on.

Troll for TrumpOct 19, 20161 votes

Ivern is a tank.

No.

dunkeroniOct 19, 20161 votes

Yes.

Here are my recent games with him: http://imgur.com/gallery/0Add4

Jet SettOct 17, 20162 votes

Agreed, AI and the coding that brings it back to you is so clunky that if feels like trying to leave a fight with her out guarantees her death. I've also had issues where I can't see who she is hitting, or she stops hitting the target in big groups (probably due to pathing and minion block)

Meep ManOct 17, 20169 votes

Guess we would have to do that with Tibbers, the Maiden, UPGRADE Turret, and whatever other ultimate summons there are as well.

Vistha KaiOct 17, 20167 votes

I hate this notion that just because something is an ult it should defy all "laws" in the game.

AirKingNeoOct 17, 20162 votes

Make smites deal halved damage to them sounds healthy.

DoseqisOct 18, 20162 votes

there is a pretty big difference between these and i don't get why people are treating Daisy like a Tibbers or Maiden Tibbers for one does initial damage and although his auto attacks hurt they aren't 100% necessary for annie to be successful in killing someone. Yorick doesn't need Maiden to half health someone to be successful, Ivern NEEDS Daisy to get a knockup for him to even be close to a good champion.

If daisy gets Smited or Syndra W'd out of a fight what else can Ivern do, Give a Snare, a brush that only has synergy with select champions and put a high cooldown ok at best shield on someone. He isn't even tanky enough to soak up a ton of damage like other tanky support junglers.

Ults shouldn't "Defy all laws" but they should be excempt from some rules if they are needed to make their champion successful.

Meep ManOct 18, 20162 votes

I get what you are saying, but realize that doing it with Daisy opens a whole can of warms for Annie, Yorick, Heimer, etc. mains to pop up and complain about. Heimerdinger especially since his Q is shut down by such interactions.

Captainn GinyuOct 17, 20165 votes

that reminds me

was playing a game few days ago an saw ivern Q a azir who managed to dash an flash as it hit him an next thing i knew i saw daisy flying across hte lane an smash into azir an kill him

shit killed me i was laughing so hard

YoureNotAMuffinOct 17, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Le Shenpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bPlh3AJd,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-17T07:09:29.664+0000)

ruins his ult entirely just based on one ability

Yasuo Windwall

Ashe Caitlyn Draven Ezreal Fizz Gragas Graves Heimerdinger Jhin Jinx Karma Katarina Lucian MissFortune Nami Nautilus Poppy Riven Sejuani Sona Syndra Talon Tristana Varus

All SkillzzOct 17, 20163 votes

eariler 1 shot daisy with a ezreal Q when it spawned. item 3146 item 3100 item 3042 item 3020 was all i had. it seemed werid cause most time it took longer to kill but soon as it poped out the bush i threw Q at ivern and it hit daisy and i got 50g an daisy didnt spawn lol.

PersevenceOct 17, 20163 votes

I dont trust the 36% win rate, this stupid tree has sheilds to block the sun.

SociopathFriendOct 17, 20161 votes

Everyone and their mother is trying to use him now- give it a month or two to settle down for a stable winrate.

RedagaOct 17, 20161 votes

yes, but even on release most champs at least stay over the 40% win Rate, below 40% is incredible low, specially for a role not as requested as Mid or Top

SociopathFriendOct 18, 20161 votes

Well it IS Jungle- so he's in a prime position for "the lanes are losing and I can't carry" syndrome. If lanes lose- the jungler loses whether he dies or not. His jungle becomes unsafe and he can't farm.

RedagaOct 18, 20161 votes

""the lanes are losing and I can't carry" " LaughsOnCarry Olaf Hecarim Nidalee MasterYi

SociopathFriendOct 18, 20161 votes

Snowballing doesn't count :P I'm just saying the jungler can't get to his jungle safely when they enemy team can run through it in groups because they took your outer turrets.

dunkeroniOct 18, 20161 votes

The low winrate is because idiots try to build squishy AP items on him. Try him out and build him tank. You will do fine.

KaylaDaBamfOct 17, 20163 votes

But I mean, a Lucian R will melt anything in its path, why should Daisy be an exception?

morris1Oct 17, 20161 votes

I have no evidence to back this up, but I think since Daisy is coded as a minion she takes 4x the damage from his ult which basically kills it in less than a second of tanking.

KaylaDaBamfOct 17, 20162 votes

So does Tibbers and so does Sion passive. I think old Yorick ult used to also. What's your point? If it's not a champion it shouldn't be as tanky as one.

dunkeroniOct 18, 20161 votes

Daisy is coded as a minion, but Lucian's ult also does bonus damage to monsters (which fits thematically).

Blackstone01Oct 17, 20163 votes

I'm waiting for Worlds to finish before determining if Ivern is actually shit, cause it's happened several times where a champ is released, everybody thinks they are garbage, Riot gives them some buffs, and suddenly some pro shows everybody how to play them. Right now we are missing that last part.

LXIIOct 17, 20163 votes

I've been crushing with Ivern. I'm only Gold though, so I can't speak to his usefulness in higher elo.

SpecterVonBarenOct 17, 20163 votes

Diamond V player here, have a similar impression of him.

KillstradoOct 17, 20161 votes

Shitty Bronze here, and I do pretty good with him and thoroughly enjoy playing him in his current state....when my team doesn't ban him because he sucks and don't want me too carry them, or worse feed&flame because they don't like that I picked him

Ariel the CruelOct 18, 20161 votes

Unranked. Haven't even seen him yet. (>_>)

DoseqisOct 18, 20161 votes

I feel like one good coordinated team can dumpster him, invades are already tough since you don't have a ton of damage and can't contest with smite.

LXIIOct 18, 20161 votes

I honestly do most of my farming when my smite is up to avoid that. I usually just mark some camps then look for ganks and come back at the earliest convenience to collect. If the camps are gone when I get back it's not the end of the world because I usually just got some kills for my team instead.

On the pro level though I could see some issues arising with him being perma invaded though.

dunkeroniOct 18, 20161 votes

He's surprisingly good at escapes because of his snare and shield. If you find the enemy team, you can almost always run away. If they don't find you, you can guarantee a buff steal in the beginning. In a recent game, I stole blue buff in front of enemy nocturn, had enough escape to survive his counter-invade, then I stole his first red buff as well after he backed.

Fun fact: If you and the enemy jungler are fighting over a buff camp, the buff camp will only ever attack the enemy jungler, putting you at an advantage. If you can trigger your passive on the camp, then your smite will free it no matter how much health it has, overpowering any smite the enemy jungler might have. You also have much better protection for taking Dragon and Baron since your bushes will stop the enemy team from knowing how much health it has.

dunkeroniOct 18, 20161 votes

Gold IV, and I've been getting tons of S ranks by building him tank.

Nurgle ProphetOct 17, 20163 votes

Daisy needs to be treated as another champion.

Meaning, all things which affect minions won't work on her, but champion specific abilities will.

Example: Can't be Smited, Sion can't scream at her until she goes away, Syndra can't make her go bye bye with a click of a button. On the other hand, Karthus ult should affect her, she should be able to take a Magical Journey, and Soraka should be able to heal her.

Kitsuki05Oct 17, 20167 votes

You should just BECOME Daisy when you ult, and Ivern go off and hug a tree

DecritOct 17, 20162 votes

I think it is lart of the concept of summoned units.

May you be Annie, Ivern or a future Malhazar rework that summons Nashor in a teamfight if the enemy team has a Syndra you gonna have a bad time. Which i think it is nice, because it shows up the difference between champions more.

Besides while Syndra is using her W on your minion she lacks a CC and a damage spell on her rotation and if thr jungler smites it can' t smite an objective or the enemy adc. There is always something given for what is taken.

AbyssionKnightOct 18, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Le Shenpai,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bPlh3AJd,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-10-17T07:09:29.664+0000)

I get that it is pretty cool for the enemy to do things like this but having my ult disabled by a syndra for 90% of a fight or just smited and killed instantly is really annoying and ruins his ult entirely just based on one ability and summoner, If Riot still wants it to be smiteable then at least give Daisy some damage reduction so a Lucian ult clipping her doesn't just 1 shot her in a half a second.

Just on a side note Daisy's AI is really clunky and the Line that shows who She is following/Attacking is almost impossible to see in fights.

Same thing happens to Tibbers, but you don't see Annie players bitching about it.

DoseqisOct 18, 20162 votes

Tibbers also does initial damage and can be a stun allowing for a couple of autos before he gets thrown.

Tibbers also doesn't die with annie and doesn't need to do something with his Ai to make annie successful.

AbyssionKnightOct 18, 20161 votes

Your complaints were that he can be smited, and that Syndra can throw him around.

Daisy actually has more health than Tibbers at all levels (high base HP at 1 and 3 ranks, plus Ivern has AP scaling for HP, which Tibbers does not). It's also worth mentioning that at second and third ranks, Daisy has almost double the Armor and MR of tibbers, plus ap scaling on that armor and MR (which Tibbers doesn't have). So when it comes to smite, it's a significantly worse issue for Tibbers than it is for Daisy.

As for Syndra, I can understand your complaint, but as I'm sure you're aware, they've shifted Tibbers power so that he's more Auto attack reliant, as his initial burst, and his aura, are both weaker than before. Another thing you're not taking into consideration is movement speed. Tibbers base speed is 350 while Daisy's is 419. So each throw is worse for Tibbers than it is for Daisy, since he takes more time to cross the same distance. So a Syndra toss is going to ultimately harm Tibbers more than it is Daisy.

Of course there are other considerations, such as snares, Ivern's brush placement, Annie stuns etc, but I've ignored those factors in order to determine which of the two on average is going to have a worse time dealing with both smite, and syndra's throw.