@Riot Meddler I get that the PBE cycle isn't done but we are getting Vayne and twitch nerfs right?

Doseqis·Nov 17, 2016·82 votes·87,679 views

It would be a really sick joke to make us have to play with Vayne 2 shotting everyone in the game after two items based on RNG and Twitch destroying whole teams.

I really want to have faith but i'm getting worried when all i'm seeing is Malz getting put in the trash and Shyvana buffs.

I really really really would appreciate it if you would nerf Vayne in particular since she is 10000x more frusterating to play against since idk if i can deal with another whole patch of Vayne dominance especially with a BOTRK buff on top of that.

355 Comments

Malicious MetalNov 17, 201675 votes

Twitch is a product of the Meta.

Tanks with CoC and Teamfighting have become very prominent with most supports being peel supports that can protect someone just as Twitch. Assassin's are being countered by the prominence of those two things; Peel and Tanks while Mid game spikes have become very important.

Thus Twitch has become one of the best ADC's, though I wouldn't call him overpowered in the slightest.

He still is squishy, lacks Peel like Vayne, has not mobility, no stealth and needs perfect setup to do his thing.

HazyCloud7Nov 17, 201654 votes

Agree completley. Twitch's kit is far better designed (i.e. not overloaded) he has a lot more counterplay.

Rude NameNov 17, 201619 votes

To you two: [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

PermabannedGarenNov 17, 20168 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=7iQ9PvZO,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-11-17T09:40:35.121+0000)

Twitch is a product of the Meta.

Tanks with CoC and Teamfighting have become very prominent with most supports being peel supports that can protect someone just as Twitch. Assassin's are being countered by the prominence of those two things; Peel and Tanks while Mid game spikes have become very important.

Thus Twitch has become one of the best ADC's, though I wouldn't call him overpowered in the slightest.

He still is squishy, lacks Peel like Vayne, has not mobility, no stealth and needs perfect setup to do his thing.

He has pretty much the exact same win rate as Vayne while having a playerbase half as experienced.

Also, why do you attribute Twitch's sudden spike in performance to the meta, but not Vayne's? Vayne benefits just as much from peel supports as Twitch, and due to Merc's being bought almost every game as well as her natural tank-shredding she performs well against CC tanks.

Vayne is just as squishy as Twitch, lacks range like Twitch, has no way to engage a team fight herself like Twitch, and is pretty much completely focused on killing single targets, whereas Twitch can shred entire teams.

Tychusfindlay919Nov 17, 20165 votes

{quoted}

He has pretty much the exact same win rate as Vayne while having a playerbase half as experienced.

Also, why do you attribute Twitch's sudden spike in performance to the meta, but not Vayne's? Vayne benefits just as much from peel supports as Twitch, and due to Merc's being bought almost every game as well as her natural tank-shredding she performs well against CC tanks.

Vayne is just as squishy as Twitch, lacks range like Twitch, has no way to engage a team fight herself like Twitch, and is pretty much completely focused on killing single targets, whereas Twitch can shred entire teams.

Vayne is also a ton more mobile and deletes squishies faster thanks to her Q buff.

Twitch is like kog maw in that he has to stand still and machine gun everyone down, get into his face and he has to start stutterstepping which REALLY cuts into his damage hard if he doesnt just die first.

VenomarNov 17, 20167 votes

Twitch isn't a product of the meta. He's a product of his W getting a humongous buff and being gifted an excellent lane phase and wave clear over night. An area where he used to struggle (by design) he now excells in. And don't get me started on his new Q Delay timing, it does more than just give him quicker camo, it gives him more and faster burst windows in prolonged fights. His win rate is top 5 at all minute checkmarks on Champion.gg. His mini rework gave him new power, and that's fine, but he's a boss in any meta in his current state and needs a second look.

And this is coming from someone who loves Twitch and his design, pre and post rework.

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201642 votes

Patch 6.23 is locked for new changes at this point. A combination of non balance pre-season follow up, MMR issues making balance assessments trickier than usual and shifted patch dev cycles due to Thanksgiving means it's going to be a lighter patch than most balance wise.

We are talking about whether we should make changes to Vayne in 6.24 (the patch we're working on now), given she does look pretty strong. Twitch isn't currently on our radar, though possible that could change. Other stuff we'll likely be looking at includes Courage of the Colossus, Fervor, overall increase in magic damage from Aegis removal, Syndra, Fiddlesticks and more.

Meep ManNov 17, 20166 votes

Fiddlesticks?

Sightless66Nov 17, 201613 votes

The jungle changes nuked his clear speed. The buff camps losing their small minions means that he can't bounce his bird off of them, lowering his clear times for those camps. However, camps like the raptors and Krugs just have way too many small minions now, and he takes forever to actually clear them all.

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201614 votes

Jungle changes have probably hit him too hard - Dark Wind's good at camps of 2-3, much weaker against camps of 1 or 6.

Malicious MetalNov 17, 20165 votes

How about making his wind bounce back to him like old Ryze's spell flux?

Big LincolnNov 17, 20163 votes

that would be way too strong and would probably turn him into a ridiculously good invader

just let his W auto-switch to the closest monster if the original one dies

lmpetrixNov 17, 20166 votes

Except it wouldn't be too strong at all, because you still only get 3 damaging bounces if it bounces to him. This means that it will do at most half of the ability's total damage, where before you could proc the full damage on every camp except Gromp. (Which is why you smited Gromp even if you didn't want the passive)

Unless you're talking about boosting the damage of Drain by as much as 100% against isolated targets, it solves nothing. He gained an additional 55 seconds on his clear time with 6.22. Most other junglers actually clear faster now. Letting Drain switch from target to target would shave maybe 20 of those 55 seconds off.

VisthaNov 17, 20164 votes

Syndra

I hope what you will look into would be reverting her MYMU, because if this is will be another case of "we made a cancer change that resulted in everything else in the champion's kit being nerfed", I'm going to be upset.

Malicious MetalNov 17, 20163 votes

Rylais is probably also a topic, huh? Though it's probably weird to assess during an Assassin "meta" when the extra hp's so useful

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201612 votes

Yep, almost certainly Rylai's in 6.24.

EROTIC RAID BOSSNov 17, 20162 votes

how do you decide how much to buff azir in 6.24 while nerfing one of his core items at the same time? Just genuinely curious, I figured you decided on what numbers are right based partly on live statistics

RiotMeddlerNov 18, 20165 votes

Azir buffs, at least in 6.24 or 7.1, are likely to be quite small. Azir's proven quite difficult to balance so we're really cautious of overdoing it and a nerf to Rylai's will affect a range of other champions as well. Playing it safe like that could certainly leave Azir in too poor a state still, especially if Rylai's is dramatically more important to him than other champs. If so we'd consider a second set of buffs.

Again, just to be clear on what we're thinking though, whatever we do for him's almost certainly small stuff, not major power impacting changes.

Masala ChaiNov 18, 20161 votes

Kalista?

RiotMeddlerNov 18, 20165 votes

Buffs targeted for 7.1, possible they end up in 6.24 if they go really smoothly.

SkiasNov 17, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Patch 6.23 is locked for new changes at this point. A combination of non balance pre-season follow up, MMR issues making balance assessments trickier than usual and shifted patch dev cycles due to Thanksgiving means it's going to be a lighter patch than most balance wise.

We are talking about whether we should make changes to Vayne in 6.24 (the patch we're working on now), given she does look pretty strong. Twitch isn't currently on our radar, though possible that could change. Other stuff we'll likely be looking at includes Courage of the Colossus, Fervor, overall increase in magic damage from Aegis removal, Syndra, Fiddlesticks and more.

Courage feels really underwhelming on champions like Taric who you'd think would want it at face value. Its so unreliable to me, I just opt for taking Fervor for a stronger dueling presence. I like siegemaster and fearless. Grasp is still lackluster.

DarkRitualNov 17, 20167 votes

Courage is for Divers. Taric is definately not a diver, so is not someone I would imagine wanting it either way.

Elderwood HoloNov 17, 20164 votes

How's Ahri these days?

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201628 votes

Quite strong in regular play. Some of that reflects that most mages have become significantly more effective after the Aegis change though and some of it's that a lot of people are still learning the assassin changes so mages often get easy match ups mid right now. Would want to address class as a whole issues/let the meta settle before considering balance changes for most mages as a result. Some outliers we'll touch in the meantime though (e.g. Syndra)

PnakoticNov 17, 20163 votes

any thought about Kindred ? (thank's in advance)

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201613 votes

Right ballpark power wise. Power drops off too hard over the course of the game though which classes with intended jungle carry playstyle. Might be appropriate to shift power later as a result (get them onto more multiplicative builds with Crit perhaps as another scalar?).

Edit: Actually, arguably on the soft side in terms of power. Another possible argument for Fervor being undertuned versus Warlords.

hunterspecNov 18, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Right ballpark power wise. Power drops off too hard over the course of the game though which classes with intended jungle carry playstyle. Might be appropriate to shift power later as a result (get them onto more multiplicative builds with Crit perhaps as another scalar?).

Edit: Actually, arguably on the soft side in terms of power. Another possible argument for Fervor being undertuned versus Warlords.

I'm still waiting on my answer when I asked when you are gonna update eve

DwarvenGiantNov 18, 20161 votes

Probably sometime in 2017. No real concrete plans right now, though, because the teams got their hands full with Warwick and Galio.

RiotMeddlerNov 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Probably sometime in 2017. No real concrete plans right now, though, because the teams got their hands full with Warwick and Galio.

Yep. 2017 looks pretty plausible, got some other champs to do first though so no guarantees yet.

MunchCrunchLunchNov 18, 20162 votes

you guys take a break during thanks giving?.

balance aside i think yall need a break man. the past few weeks been crazy content and balance being put out

RiotMeddlerNov 18, 20165 votes

Yep, for the US offices at least most people are off work for a couple of days.

In general though the Christmas time tends to be when we take time off in particular. Most development's on hold for a bit there so it's a good time to go catch up with friends/family, especially when that means traveling to a different state or country.

Elderwood HoloNov 17, 20167 votes

Thanks for the answer Meddler!

kasfasNov 17, 20161 votes

What in particular do you think you're going to change about fervour and colossus?

[ IMO fervour is in a pretty good spot. Mathe you want to have it stack faster for melees again, but I don't think it needs large buffs but Colossus could do with some changes. Maybe it should give more shield based on the number of enemies actually hit with cc, or perhaps increase the base by how many people are nearby (say base 5% increasing by .5% per enemy champion nearby keeps the max shield the same, but makes it more manageable in lane and in 1v1s). ]

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201611 votes

Gut reaction is Courage is out of line in terms of both shield strength and CD, possible we just adjust one though.

Less sure on Fervor, does look like it's underperforming relative to Warlord's though. First step's probably to determine if it's too weak or Warlord's too strong as a result.

Shadow HazardNov 17, 20168 votes

Kindred Jax Warwick XinZhao MasterYi Oh yes Warlords is clearly too strong of an option on these guys.... On a serious note will these guys be getting looked at, it feels pretty bad to see only shyvana get attention because she lost both fervor and sota, when there are quite a few others who are in a similarly hurt spot right now, most have been in a really bad spot since they lost devourer (not saying it should be returned in its infamous glory). I think it should be considered to look into bloodrazor as a common factor for these weak champs also.

WinTheWarOnPantsNov 17, 20165 votes

what seems to be the problems with Fervor IMO is that you can only stack it with autos. I tried it a few times on Evelynn and it's just so underwhelming since it obviously favors ranged champs(not the only thing that does, but i digress) and i almost never had the AD when i needed it. The flat AD means that it should favor AD castors, but the casters can't get in enough autos to get the AD. very Auto heavy champs(more so ranged than melee) can easily stack fervor, but its much less useful on them and would much rather have Warlords(which casters can't use either(with few exceptions)).

GandlosNov 17, 20161 votes

What about our supreme emperor? Azir Anything specific?

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201614 votes

Trying to find some small love for him that helps out a little without recreating previous problems. Hopefully for 6.24 or 7.1. Tough to work on without making more fundamental changes.

I am RazgrizNov 18, 20163 votes

Personally I won't play Azir until you let his Soldiers apply on-hit effects, even at a weakened value :)

The fact his soldiers can't apply red irks me.

JerulEonNov 17, 20161 votes

How about Garen? I'm itching for more news.

RiotMeddlerNov 17, 201610 votes

Potential E armor shred mechanic added in 6.24, still going through testing though.

Chromatic EagleNov 18, 20164 votes

Just wondering, but why that mechanic?

LeetriNov 17, 201612 votes

Wait, Twitch is actually strong? Everyone were complaining earlier about how useless he is because of the stealth change. I shouldn't be surprised, it wouldn't be the first time everyone overreacts before actually trying something out.

DoseqisNov 17, 20169 votes

Pretty much his stealth being so much longer and his W slow being insane while also letting him waveclear alot easier which was a pretty big weakness he has.

His Runnans into IE build completely destroys teamfights too

the weeabooNov 17, 20169 votes

WHAT? Why are you asking for nerfs on my Twitch??

Honestly Twitch received so many nerfs this patch already... he has literally no mobility, escape, or even a decent form of CC. He doesn't even get to build Youmuus anymore. He relies 500% on waiting for the stars to align so he can get an effective ultimate off. He has one of the weakest laning phases of all ADCs. To be honest he is probably one of the most balanced carries right now.

The only reason he is actually shining now is because other ADCs like Jhin are scrambling. There's a simple counter to Twitch it's called control wards and CC.

RrettNov 17, 201610 votes

Twitch is actually stronger now lel.

The change to his W makes him soooo freaking strong now. It's great for laning phase.

ÀchillèsNov 17, 20167 votes

ARE U FUCKING KIDING ME SHE LEGIT JUST CAME BACK INTO THE GAME AND JUST BECAME SOMEWHAT DECENT. i dont think u all at riot understand that there are way to many fucking champs that need nerfs AND U DECIDE THAT VAYNE should be the one to get nerfed. This is fucking bullshit, jhin has gone about 2 whole season, and hasnt been FUCKING NERFED. GOD FUCKING DAMNIT VAYNE CANT BE RELEVENT FOR 2 PATCHES AND JHIN AND CAIT CAN BE BROKEN FOR 2 FUCKING YEARS. ARE U KIDING ME FUCK THIS SHIT I SWEAR TO FUCKING GOD IF U NERF VAYNE IMA FUCKING QUIT. SHES MY MAIN AND IVE TRIED TO PLAY HER ALL SEASON 6 AND I CANT BECAUSE THESE FUCKING JHIN AND CAIT PLAYERS CAN BE BROKEN AF AND U LET THIS SHIT HAPPEN BUT VAYNE ISNT ALLOWED TO BE PLAYED, NOPE CAUSE SHES SO BROKEN. WHY ARENT THERE FUCKING NERFS ON SO MANY OTHER CHAMP THATS ARE 10X MORE BROKEN THAN VAYNE. U MAKE ME FUCKING SICK, IVE PLAYED THIS GAME SINCE SEASON 3, AND IVE SEEN WHY TO MANY STUPID THINGS THAT U DO. MAYBE LISTEN TO THIS FUCKING MSG AND U CAN MAKE SOMEWHAT A GOOD DECISION. If i hear about vayne nerfs, im so done with u and ill have no respect for you mother fuckers!

RiotMeddlerNov 18, 201657 votes

It currently looks like Vayne's one of, or the strongest, marksmen right now. That means she's worth looking at. Conclusion might be that we should buff weaker marksmen, adjust items or masteries, or that it's just meta that she's strong and that's appropriate. Looking at her in the first place seems pretty important though.

As a heads up your capslock or shift key seems to be stuck. Makes your words appear angry and less coherent.

TheHypeGokuNov 18, 201620 votes

{quoted} As a heads up your capslock or shift key seems to be stuck. Makes your words appear angry and less coherent.

You're amazing lol

Michael SykesNov 18, 20165 votes

{quoted}

It currently looks like Vayne's one of, or the strongest, marksmen right now. That means she's worth looking at. Conclusion might be that we should buff weaker marksmen, adjust items or masteries, or that it's just meta that she's strong and that's appropriate. Looking at her in the first place seems pretty important though.

As a heads up your capslock or shift key seems to be stuck. Makes your words appear angry and less coherent.

Logged in on My phone to upvote that lol Wp Meddler!