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I hit Masters with Teemo Jungle not because of the champion, but because of the items.

HIKASHIKUN··150 votes·13,803 views

Hi there, my name is Hikashikun and I'm a 3-year long Teemo main. I honestly don't know what else to say. I've played thousands of Teemo games, I hit high peaks on the ranked solo queue ladder, and played with and against the pros. I love playing him, I really do and I've tried literally every build possible for him and of course, played him for each and every lane.

However, thanks to the recent changes to Teemo, I feel like he's been gutted as champion - I made it to front page reddit on the LoL sub five days ago for hitting Masters with Teemo jungle; I was only able to do it not because of the champion but because of the items I've used. It's a joke and a half to be quite honest. Can I get some type of response from a Rioter about any potential changes for Teemo? His identity? There's so many people out there in the community that think these changes are a Nerf, not a Buff. There's been tons of posts made regarding how negatively these changes has affected him but no response from Riot. What do I need to do to get your attention? Make another front page reddit post? Cry out on social media? Create private messages to Riot employees who have a hand in the Champion changes? I tried drafting a huge analysis for the reasons why the changes made Teemo weaker, not stronger. I tried to adhere to the guidelines for post submission, to make room for healthy conversation regarding the topic (counter arguments, etc).

I just don't know what to do at this point. I feel like there's no sense of responsibility or care to even respond to us players who enjoy playing Teemo, the champion. Who invested so much time in learning him. Sure, you guys made changes to him and you want us to change our gameplay based on those changes however, after all this time there's more and more negatives than positives to be had. We're all lost. Teemo has no identity, it's beginning to be not fun playing Teemo and I think that's a cause for concern for the community as a whole, not just Teemo mains.

Ranked History:

  • Season 2: 1500-1600 Raw ELO
  • Season 3: Diamond 1, 97 LP
  • Season 4: Masters 0, LP
  • Season 5: Masters 15, LP

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171 Comments

Lord Dolan35 votes

Those nerfs to his passive and ult were brutal, I agree. 40% attack speed gone and 5 minute mushrooms hurt. Make it worse, his mushroom ratio was nerfed by 30% last season for no reason...

Curling Veigar74 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dolan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bMf6GPpW,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-27T07:48:57.593+0000)

Those nerfs to his passive and ult were brutal, I agree. 40% attack speed gone and 5 minute mushrooms hurt. Make it worse, his mushroom ratio was nerfed by 30% last season for no reason...

Ratio was nerfed because it was oneshotting people.

Penns6 votes

Veigar

I had to

Curling Veigar50 votes

{quoted}

Veigar

I had to

But now imagine veigar ults all around the map,invisible, lasting for 10 minutes

Penns3 votes

True but theyre pretty hard to hit in an actual fight and... not point & click :D Also they dont look like a fking badass blue explosion thing that scales with AP, they dont even have an animation without a skin :[

Shield Villain27 votes

They're not meant to be hit in an actual battle. They offer you vision of the map, allowing you for better objective control. They also double up as potential executes after team fights, when the enemy runs away low. Even worse if they run into a shroom before a team fight.

You're not supposed to be able to shroom an entire enemy team mid battle.

Penns2 votes

Yeah but Veigars ult is meant to. You can sweep Teemos ult or just go back and not engage when you walk into one. Veigar just presses one button and makes the game 4v5.

Shield Villain10 votes

That would be valid if Sweeper Lens upgrade lasted more than a few seconds, even with its small buff. Being realistically here, you sweep up maybe one to two shrooms before the thing runs out. Then you run into the one you didn't sweep or see.

I don't know if you realize how scary playing against a good teemo is. Shrooms well spaced out, covering about half the map. Any venture into the jungle feels like you're walking into the Vietcong jungle.

Veigar has 1 ult to use, on one person. Yeah, it deals a lot of damage, but that's mostly against AP champions.

If you let it drag out to late game, where he has 1400 AP, then of course it's going to hurt. it's like saying a Nasus with 1000 Stacks isn't going to hurt. But he's still hella squishy and his ult won't stay on the map until someone runs into it.

Penns1 votes

Veigars ult does stay on the map (at least it stays in the game lol) until somneone runs into it because he simply cant miss unless you use a even unhealthier mechanic. Sure he cant go somewhere else meanwhile but I mean... Teemo doesnt have a ranged 2.5 second stun with awesome zoning so lets not compare one of the best mid laners in the game with... Teemo :p Apart from that, his shrooms never even got close to "oneshotting" someone. If he was really fed, his shrooms maybe twoshot you, but adcs have life steal, apcs can have abyssal or athenes and tanks dont really care...

I Main Swain6 votes

veigar isn't even close to one of the best mid laners in the game. are you really making an argument that he's op?

Penns1 votes

He is lol. Stat wise, he rose from medicore- bad to top tier this patch. Idk why, but he did and this cant be coincidence. People just found out how strong he really is, Viktor became top tier over night too without any big changes.

I Main Swain6 votes

well one way or the other, he has enough clear counterplay that he is certainly not op. i mean, with a well timed zhonyas you can ruin his entire combo.

I Main Swain3 votes

if you sweep teemo's ult and stop to attack it, you probably lost the teamfight right there.

also, teemo can just pres q and make the game 4v5

Penns2 votes

If he gets in range of the adc, which he probably cant without instantly dying for it since he has no tools to do so, unlike Veigars E. Also Teemos Q does like 700 dmg max by the time Veigars ult easily oneshots the enemy APC. And you wont get more than 1, maybe 2 Teemo Qs off in a teamfight since he has no survivability at all apart from his W.

I Main Swain3 votes

veigar is also slow as balls, and by the time he gets from his safe distance to the adc (assuming he manages a full team stun), the stun will have faded already and you will be at about -1000 hp.

as for the teemo q, the damage isnt what would make it a 4v5, it's the blind. if your team is focusing properly and you can survive long enough to place a shroom and q the enemy adc, it massively boosts your team's chances of wining. meanwhile, your apc used his zhonyas while the veigar ult was mid-flight and then died almost instantly afterwards because he has 10x less survivability than teemo if his ult is on cd.

Penns2 votes

But what if the enemies have some type of close range assassin like Diana for example? He doesnt have to do anything to oneshot her, she will come to his team. Veigar doesnt normally kill the adc except when hes fed or he fucked up.

Thats what I was implying with my first sentence. Then I said that Veigar doesnt need a blind because he just oneshots (those 700 damage came from 1000 AP Teemo against a less than 50 MR target btw). And yo... How does anyone have 10x less survivability than Teemo, who basically has 0 lol?

I Main Swain2 votes

first off, veigar is a strong diana counter so that's not a very good example. second, any assassin playing against a veigar would be crazy in most situations to not build a banshees. also, good veigar players dont just focus the apc, that's a stupid way of thinking tbh. they go for whoever they think they can get and try to get rid of the biggest threats on the enemy team.

have you never tried chasing a teemo? have you never experienced the escape combo of his w and a trail of shrooms? it's like trying to chase a singed with rylais.

Saianna4 votes

Ratio was nerfed because of synergy with Liandry. Now to deal pretty much the same damage as pre-nerfed ratio Teemo HAS to build Liandry. There's no choice.

Horrow19 votes

{quoted}

Ratio was nerfed because of synergy with Liandry. Now to deal pretty much the same damage as pre-nerfed ratio Teemo HAS to build Liandry. There's no choice.

I hope you also complain about ADCs having to build Infinity Edge.

sp4415 votes

Well, I do. I think it's dumb that you HAVE to buy a certain item if you're of a certain class. Not a certain champion, a certain CLASS. If you're a Marksman you WILL build Infinity Edge, and if you're a Mage you WILL build Rabaddon's Deathcap.

chipi992 votes

Its not like sweeping lens made his ult useless or anything.

SteelStallion17 votes

Riot does not like to acknowledge that they make mistakes, so they never revert champion changes like this even when it is a blatantly bad idea. They have a schedule of champions to rework/change and they keep trucking on with that schedule with no regard for feedback along the way on the changes they put out.

Pahimakas2 votes

{quoted}

Riot does not like to acknowledge that they make mistakes, so they never revert champion changes like this even when it is a blatantly bad idea. They have a schedule of champions to rework/change and they keep trucking on with that schedule with no regard for feedback along the way on the changes they put out.

The feedback is from PBE. It is PBE's job to tell Riot what is good and what is bad. If people on Live argue about it then its PBE's fault but heck... Everyone argues about anything. Can't make everyone happy

1011001110009 votes

You act like the PBE hasn't complained about everything that hits live anyway. PBE balance feedback gets ignored 99% of the time.

HalcyonDweller2 votes

PBE isn't ignored that much. Look at the Skarner Rework, he came out strong because the PBE players were playing him like the old Skarner and thought he was weak. They complained, and RIOT buffed before release. Then we had the era of Skarner Jungle on Live.

HIKASHIKUN14 votes

I just don't care anymore. We don't get any type of response and that's just it. No one cares to do anything or even talk about the issue - there's no communication. This will be my last post concerning Teemo, I put in a lot of effort to get attention and it doesn't get through, a waste of time. You guys can continue your circle jerk hate memes on Teemo or say to even delete him because in the end of the day, just like this post, no one cares.

Cosnirak2 votes

I'm fairly certain Riot has noticed and are not ignoring it. But they're pretty busy and want to talk to each other before making public statements on the issue as well.

When they first talked about doing the changes to Teemo people expressed concerns over it being an overall nerf, and a hefty one at that. Riot said they would compensate him if the changes were a big enough nerf. I still trust that they will. But lets not jump into utter despair. It's not like he's useless. He wasn't actually gutted. His identity is completely the same. He was simply nerfed and elsewhere slightly buffed but not enough to make up for it.

Personally I think Riot just needs to make two changes:

  1. Bring the duration of shrooms up to 7 or 8 minutes, 5 has shown itself to not be enough but 10 is pretty dang long.
  2. Change the attack speed bonus from his passive to 30/45/60/75. Trying to kill people with it early on shouldn't be too easy like before but shouldn't be impossible, it's a very Teemo thing to do.
Sozan513 votes

Indeed, Teemo got gutted and the only thing he got in return are some gimmicks (let's be honest - I can't remember bouncing shrooms ever being useful).

Silents4291 votes

They are suppose to be used in team fights or shroom out of reach places. Just no one is adjusting there playstyle around the new changes but instead forcing there old one.

1011001110006 votes

By late game, those things go so far the bounce mechanic doesn't even matter. The bounce mechanic never truly matters at all.

The only legitimate buff Teemo got was holding his passive while in brush. Everything else was a nerf.

Silents4291 votes

Then position yourself better.

1011001110001 votes

What does my positioning have to do with the uselessness of a cheesy mechanic that contributes nothing to Teemo's ultimate ability?

Silents4291 votes

If they bounce to far move further back before launching them.

And how doesn't this contribute to his ultimate exactly? He can place shrooms over walls and into another bush with safety now, if he tosses some into teams it can be devastating.

1011001110005 votes

The ability's range already scales with rank, and he has no trouble shrooming over walls with the initial range given anyway.

If he tosses them into the enemy team, 3 of them can turn to auto-attack it and it pops before it even has a chance to arm. The bounce is telegraphed to shit and accomplishes nothing in a teamfight situation that the ability without the bounce mechanic wouldn't already accomplish on its own. It's a sad gimmick they added just to gut the shroom timer.

Puddy9 votes

I completely agree, hikashikun. Lets hope this thread & the reddit frontpage thread makes riot do something. We can hope :(

A Miss Fortune9 votes

Teemo needs a rework before he's ever buffed. He's too toxic to play against and even if he was in a half decent state, he'd make playing the game boring and fun. More than sure Riot has always wanted to rework Teemo, but him having probably the largest fan base in the game would make it difficult.

Think of Lee Sin, whenever Riot dares nerf him his fan base flips out and all you see are Reddit posts about "ogm lee is balance". If Riot were to rework Teemo, they would most likely have to remove his blind, poison, and mushrooms (or just change them up a ton) which are his identity that for some reason people want him to keep. He'll never be viable and he's probably one of the weakest champions right now but if he ever was remotely strong he would probably be banned most games because he would prevent a player from enjoying the game with his current kit.

He's purposely kept in a bad state because of how toxic he is.

diamondlight9 votes

His buffs were nerfs.

  • Shroom arm should go back to 1 second.
  • Shroom duration should go up as R is leveled, 5 mins, 6.5 mins, 8 mins. I think that's more fair, than having gone from 10 mins to 5 mins.
  • Shroom bounce/travel speed should go up as R is leveled, sure the range is increased, but it's not compensated for by traveling faster.

I almost would rather it not travel as far if it could arm in time to actually do something. So, yes, you level R, now they bounce further, cool, except the animation speed is still the same... so that means you have far longer to see this shroom bounce and kill it/dodge it or just ignore it by moving somewhere else till minions tank them.

Team Fight Shroom Bounce: Right now the slow animation, increased arm-time and the fact that bouncing them actually makes it take even longer because of the travel speed with bouncing (the promoted mechanic) that it's ridiculously telegraphed and slow-animated. It's crazy easy for the enemy to just move to the side and wait for minions to tank the shrooms, which basically takes Teemo shrooms out of the picture for 27 * 3 = 81 seconds. At Max CD, it's still 49 seconds to get 3 more shrooms.

I am not a Master/Challenger Teemo player, but I did try it out and honestly the bounce makes it EASIER for enemy champs to see it coming, to work around it and to have it be completely ineffective. The longer the bounce, the more time the enemy has to completely avoid/ignore it and do some dances and laughs completely due to the animation/travel speed being so incredibly slow.

notawinner6 votes

Agreed. I really like teemo, in fact I even bought most of his skins, but I cant really justify playing him because hes so weak. Makes me sad

PePsiLemoNN5 votes

Or just delete him from the game? -??

MalzaharAnyLane4 votes

delete teemo 2015

SlytherinUmbreon18 votes

Teemo for President 2016 10/10 poro's think he's cuter then Bernie Sanders

I Main Swain4 votes

I absolutely hate the changes to his mushrooms. ignoring the nerfs to the damage and duration, the throwing/bouncing change is just downright rediculous. His weakness with the shrooms was having to go and manually place the shrooms AND that he couldnt place them over the wall. on top of that, it doesnt really make sense to have him be throwing and bouncing shrooms all over. i just hate the changes in every way.

Budupops3 votes

noob now that devour is gone u r bronze

Mia Hanoka2 votes

Sad fact is sad any change that will happen to teemo other then reverting to S2 S3 teemo will just piss off all the teemo players. however if that happens then the game becomes, "NO ONE FRELLING LEAVE BASE!" sorry the changes the balance out you crap rat hurts but at the same time any time some one recommends something that would massively help is lost identity you stains just flip out and demand S2 S3 teemo back. you want the 1 shroom one kill teemo. guess what S2 S3 is never coming back know why? the new ward system so get over your self righteous need to have every shroom = a kill.

Teemo was purposed as a scout, his lore is that of a scout, and none of what he does is a scout. Changing his R to not do damage grant more vision have a harder slow and reveal invisible targets when they pop would make him fit every thing rito intended him to be. get off the teemo needs remote kill switches and you will see it would be a positive change. he was never meant to be a I kill every one just cause I exist champion he was meant at best as a mascot AT BEST.

Quort8 votes

Teemo hardly does anything anymore.

He is no longer much of a lane bully because his short range and relatively poor mobility make him a much easier target than in the past. Champions like Quinn, Vayne, Cassiopeia, and Lissandra are all far more oppresive to melees in the top lane.

His Mushrooms were severely nerfed. They halved the duration which makes them worse for providing vision and global presence. They simultaneously increased the arming time which makes it worse as a reactionary measure when he is jumped on or needs to kite. What was the compensations? He gains range which is useless because outside of combat scenarios it was rarely an issue to place Mushrooms and in combat the prolonged travel animation and slow arm time makes them too telegraphed.

ForeverLaxx2 votes

To be fair to Teemo (I know, crazy idea), this has more to do with mobility creep than Teemo. He's still a lane bully in much the same way he always was, it's just that his old level of power has been eclipsed by newer releases and what they're capable of.

Manwalrus1 votes

The two Xin games with all tears where you went a combined 39/11 were entertaining.

DorkunedAuras2 votes

To be fair, he probably sold his real build at the end for tears because the game was over.

xFrostKnightx1 votes

When you are above saying "gg ez"

Buy 6 troll items at the end to rub it in like a respectable player.

HIKASHIKUN5 votes

I've never said "gg ez" before in my life, it's just plain rude. The only reason why I bought 6 tears was because my friends on the team were salty they were losing until I came in and because I like the color blue.

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