Why does Garen need to be a 'noob champion'?

Mira Arya Enthe··65 votes·6,339 views

Now I don't know about you, but when I started this game(and just about everyone I know), I didn't say "Oh they gave me that knight dude, I'm going to spam him every single game until I know the basic mechanics and strategy overall!" Like... who tf actually does this? Everyone, everyone I have met has done something like this

Skips tutorial Finishes tutorial, plays what is on free week, tries like 5-6 free week champions, settles on something they enjoy enough. Then they look through the champion list "Oh this appeals to me." And buy/save for a champion, play that champion.

My first champion was neither Ashe or Garen or Warwick. It was Leona, but before I could buy her I played Xerath on free week, who at the time had some pretty 'complex' mechanics due to his clunky kit and sieging. But as a gamer I was able to figure it out to an entry level within about 2 games.

People act as if "Land the edge of Darius Q for more damage and healing" like... fucking requires a PHD and distracts from learning the game overall. Unless we are talking about hidden aspects of the game like animation canceling, or hard to use directional abilities like Condemn, or complex spells like Zed's shadow mechanic, almost all mechanics in this game are extremely straightforward and simple(as they should be, no reason to overcomplicate a Lux root). There doesn't need to be a 'starter' champion everyone can learn, especially in a class like Juggernauts, where the most complicated mechanics are Mordekaiser's bugs.

Same goes for ADC, almost all of them are pretty straight forward, barring Draven's axes, Vayne's condemn, Corki and Varus weird ability setups and Ezreal's skillshots, most ADCs consist of "Right click, things happen."

There is no excuse for leaving Garen dull and overly linear "So noobs have a champion to play". That isn't how people work, nobody jumps into a Moba and asks "Which one is the noob champion guys I need to learn about warding and Baron tactics before I learn super complicated mechanics like axe swing does more damage on edge! Else my brain might explode." They play what looks fun, what is free, and what appeals to them that they can buy.

I am fine with keeping Garen simple, most Juggernauts are. But at least keep him Darius simple, not worthless never-going-to-be-used-commonly-over-platinum simple. Not linear stat stick who if you love the champion realize he will never be viable simple.

110 Comments

Malicious Metal48 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bM354gjE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-04T17:50:09.254+0000)

There doesn't need to be a starter champion everyone can learn, especially in a class like Juggernauts, where the most complicated mechanics are Mordekaiser's bugs.

...

That's a low blow.

Ahristocats2 votes

op mains shyvana, so he must gotta lower juggernauts to shyvana's skill despite morde having 3 or 4 different animation cancelling

kappa

Big Lincoln10 votes

I was going to say that nobody believes he should stay as is, but then I saw the replies

im partially glad riot doesn't listen to us as much as we want them to now

franchise76765 votes

leave him alone you fuckers. every champ riot reworks becomes shit. gp anyone?

CancerBasedGod26 votes

GP is fun and actually takes some thought unlike most champs...

Smitty Manjensen6 votes

{quoted}

GP is fun and actually takes some thought unlike most champs...

Yes, he's very fun, just staying away and spamming barrels is extremely fun and complex gameplay, also the occasional ult across the map, so damn fun.

50000000000000004 votes

You can't spam barrels. It has a long recharge time.

DeusVult1 votes

18-10 isnt a long time to recharge, especially since GP builds CDR as his first item, and generally ends a game with 30-40% CDR.

And since barrels have no mana cost, laning for GP generally ends up being him setting up barrels and clearing waves, trying to land some poke and avoiding all ins with oranges/exhaust. He then ults cross map for pressure.

Limrick1 votes

You have to combo at least 2 barrels to hit people unless they're a monkey. So you can double that charge time. Plus the barrels get killed in one hit by anyone, and most auto attacks are faster than GP's Q. Not to mention that he's ridiculously squishy and can easily be bullied early and then dove if he doesn't play very well.

All you need to do is stand just outside your wave so you don't get chipped by a barrel when he hits the minions, then bait his orange and beat him up. He's extremely weak in a head-on fight unless he's already landed a ton of poke or has some barrels set up well. And also if he ults bot, he just lost a ton of his power in a fight, and he lost a huge slow that helps deter dives. After he uses ult, start getting as much damage as you can on him, force him under tower, then dive him, get your jungler if you have to, just dive his ass.

GP can be extremely safe and powerful, but if you play it right you can seriously cripple him, and a GP that's behind is basically dead weight. Like any champ, just capitalize on his weaknesses and shut him down. Also, taking ignite is a good way to deal with him, because it makes the orange heal less and gives you more damage that his exhaust can't reduce.

Sozan51 votes

His playstyle was exactly the same before.

He rarely could fight anyone in lane and he would just sit back and farm with Q until late.

Smitty Manjensen1 votes

{quoted}

His playstyle was exactly the same before.

He rarely could fight anyone in lane and he would just sit back and farm with Q until late.

So basically they did nothing? He's garbage, shit design before and after. They need someone decent to rework him not whoever did that.

Sozan51 votes

Nah, I think he's in better spot then he was. Now he has high and low moments with the barrels and is just a tad more interactive than he used to be.

However, I still think that some changes might be necessary to force him to interact with his enemy.

Main offender is actually W - at rank 1 it costs 80 mana and heals 50 +90% AP +15% of missing health - that's a pretty substantial amount of sustain for 1 point in an ability. You could say that 80 mana is a lot, but considering that his Q costs 40 and his E nothing, he literally doesn't have anything else to spend it on.

The other offender is of course the gold on his Q. I think both have pretty reasonable solution:

E mana cost increased to 50 - refunds 50 mana per champion hit.

Now he can no longer just spam barrels whenever he pleases, destroying barrels feels good and he doesn't have enough mana to use W for healing (or he will be missing out on farm with E).

That said - GP is in a spot where I don't think he needs much nerfs and I have no idea how to compensate him for this.

Sahn Uzal3 votes

I gotta disagree with you here. Remove scurvy has a high mana cost, you can't simply spam it in lane.

The main offender DEFINETLY is the Plunder passive on Parrrrrley, because of the playstyle it supports. Especially since Gangplank does not have a lot of base health, so the heal from W seems better than it is in reality. The reason his W has that % missing HP cost is to keep a Fighter GP build Viable, because the rework did not intend to kill that playstyle.

I disagree with adding a mana cost to Powder Keg, because adding a mana cost to a previously free-to-cast ability comes with an increase of that champion's maximum mana pool (See Ekko's ult.)

This would allow him to keep sitting on a keg, but use the ability less frequently, and spam Q for way longer instead. I do not think thats the direction he should be going.


In my opinion, Gangplank should lose his Plunder passive on Q, and have some power shifts in how he deals damage in the early game.

Put a majority of his early trading power in Trial By Fire, and he should be encouraged to have a more interactive laning pattern. The mini game with Powder Kegs is interactive, and putting the early game power in Trial By Fire rather than the actual explosion or Parrley should encourage him to get in Melee Range. Using 2/3 keg combos means he only gets one passive proc off 2/3 barrels, losing damage potential that he might want.

EDIT: I'm talking about his Laningphase, just to be sure it's clear. I think his mid-lategame playstyle is fine because you're almost guarenteed to have a Ranged champion in your team, so you always have the chance to contest or outplay him.


I think changes to GPs kit should be power neutral, he's in an ok spot, not a ''strong'' one. Which is where I think he should be.

Off Meta Evan1 votes

i agree that he is fun but he's basically an entirely different champion. old gp was AFK farm for 30 minutes, get your items, EQ the AD, win. now gp actually requires you to commit to the champion. i've played A LOT of gp but i still fuck up triple barrels regularly, even the lord and savior of GP, tobito fucks up barrels. GP is a good champion as is but i don't feel he's faithful to old gp. kinda like how castlevania 4 is a good game but its not exactly loyal to the games of before it.

Papa Andrei3 votes

Sion, Yorick, Poppy, GP, WW, are all great champions now without absolutely game breaking kits.

Agent Corgi1 votes

{quoted}

Sion, Yorick, Poppy, GP, WW, are all great champions now without absolutely game breaking kits.

I miss them for being Tacky, but they did have some real game breaking things about them. Sion : Weird AP Build, AD Sion's use of [W]: Enrage & [R]: Cannibalism Yorick : Disgusting Ghoul Spam & Cloning/Reviving Allies with [R]: Omen of Death Gangplank : Don't remember him ever having issues seasons 4-5 (When I started), but I heard somewhere that he used to be able to execute his OWN minions so that he could use his old [E]: Raise Morale Poppy : Tankiness due to her [P]: Valiant Fighter & the fact that she could dive your Backline with no consequence using her [R]: Diplomatic Immunity Warwick : Don't remember him being a problem either, aside from being really stale and the fact [R]: Infinite Duress was Click & Point

CancerBasedGod2 votes

WW was a problem for his own team. He simply could not apply pressure like other junglers, was useless before 6, and was useless between ults.

boo9101 votes

I have been able to gank occasionally pre lv 6 with old ww. But I cant prove it too you as I don't have replays

CancerBasedGod1 votes

If you ganked, that was a rare thing. Not enough for a jungler to be useful to his team.

Papa Andrei3 votes

GP and WW were reworked for same reason as Taric. Their kits were just so stale and didn't feel good to play or play against.

Tbh, I would take Old Yorick back any day over what we got now.

Agent Corgi2 votes

{quoted}

GP and WW were reworked for same reason as Taric. Their kits were just so stale and didn't feel good to play or play against.

Tbh, I would take Old Yorick back any day over what we got now.

As much as I love Old Yorick, New Yorick feels right at home for me. Played him for nearly a full year & he became the very first champion I earned my Lv7 Emote with (I had alot of people either Question whether I was insane or if I genuinely enjoyed him). After his rework, It didn't feel any different but he just, like Taric, lost that magic that made him special for me.

chipndip12 votes

Poppy turned out pretty good after she was put in line. Same for Fiora. Sion's great too.

VGUs have a higher success rate than smaller reworks. Now the MINI-REWORKS? Those fucking suck. Only Shyvanna's worked out.

Sexy Jack Rabbit4 votes

Shyvana was gutted after 2 weeks of relevance.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

lol GP was a great rework, he went from super boring to much more interesting while keeping about the same cool things he always did- kinda like warwick

franchise76762 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bM354gjE,comment-id=00050004,timestamp=2017-03-05T11:13:02.342+0000)

lol GP was a great rework, he went from super boring to much more interesting while keeping about the same cool things he always did- kinda like warwick

I was at gangplank Main and refunded him back after the rework that's how shit he is

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

wasn't he just a super boring champ with zero skill zero viability and zero fans?

I mean, makes sense you're so against a garen rework I guess

franchise76762 votes

[{quoted}](name=Monado II,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bM354gjE,comment-id=0005000400000000,timestamp=2017-03-05T12:42:02.500+0000)

wasn't he just a super boring champ with zero skill zero viability and zero fans?

I mean, makes sense you're so against a garen rework I guess

nope he was awesome

elon wątroba1 votes

The best thing, that old gp could do and new can't was a 6 full item build. With tf, shiv and his e you didn't have to buy boots.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

Tobias Fate begs to differ

''Boots are useless, they deal no damage'' -Tobias Fate 2017

chipndip15 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bM354gjE,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-04T17:50:09.254+0000)

I am fine with keeping Garen simple, most Juggernauts are. But at least keep him Darius simple, not worthless never-going-to-be-used-commonly-over-platinum simple. Not linear stat stick who if you love the champion realize he will never be viable simple.

This is all I want for champs like Garen, Sona, Yi, Kayle, and so forth...and no one cares. Not even Riot. They LIKE it that way. It's truly pathetic.

Orangesilk3 votes

To be fair, Kayle is deceptively simple, she actually has some depth regarding cd management, ult timing, kiting and so on. Which is also why she's allowed to remain strong, Kayle is never irrelevant, unlike, say, Garen or Yi.

chipndip11 votes

No, she's not.

Kayle is the same thing Yi is: "Your kits are binary as FUCK, so we'll just gate you behind items. If you get those items, you're fucking broken. If you don't, you go 0/5 and that's just how you're gonna live. Ciao."

Idk how you can claim Yi is irrelevant while saying Kayle is strong. They're almost the same thing, except Kayle is ranged and Yi is fast as fuck, boi.

Orangesilk3 votes

Except Kayles kit isn't really binary? She does not attempt to outstat anyone, in fact if she straight up tries to tank an enemy if not brutally ahead she will probably lose, she really needs to kite. She isn't overbearing when ahead, she's not useless when behind, her W, passive and R make sure she isn't useless when behind.

Her kit is anything but binary.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

Except Kayles kit isn't really binary? She does not attempt to outstat anyone, in fact if she straight up tries to tank an enemy if not brutally ahead she will probably lose, she really needs to kite. She isn't overbearing when ahead

You're legitimately committed to lying to me...

Whiteeye Avelyn2 votes

OR or he has different experiences, to me kayle can be played simple for good results or like a high level adc and ultra kitting her laner till then give up or die.

Shrek Luigi5 votes

Probably because Garen is Demacian scum. Long live the Noxian empire!

A Doorknob4 votes

Riot shouldn't touch Garen. They would just ruin him like they do most champs they rework.

Mira Arya Enthe7 votes

They already did, they loaded his entire power budget into the villain mechanic.

Ark Sorcerer1 votes

This "villain mechanic" would be...?

An Undead brat2 votes

Just do your homework and don't ask obvious questions...

http://gameinfo.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/garen/

Shadòw4 votes

Now I don't know about you, but when I started this game(and just about everyone I know), I didn't say "Oh they gave me that knight dude, I'm going to spam him every single game until I know the basic mechanics and strategy overall!" Like... who tf actually does this?

slowly raises hand

RainXBlade4 votes

The first champ I picked when I got back into League after a 1 year hiatus is Yasuo (obviously not a noob champion).

RexSaur1 votes

As much as i like champs like riven and vayne, why does every champ need to be like that?

There has to be simple champs like annie and garen too for new players, not everyone is hardcore on playing mechanically intensive champs.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

I am comparing him to Darius, not Riven and Vayne.

I highly doubt people joining the game know what is meant for them, they get in the game, see Kha'Zix or Illoai is on free week, it appeals to them, they play it.

Warlord Scrap1 votes

Dont you get a static set of free champs until like 5 or 10 though?

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

I didn't on my smurf, Arya Riven. Yasuo was on free week.

ShaolinToilet2 votes

You start out with wukong kha jinx and some other champions

Aeszarck2 votes

{quoted}

You start out with wukong kha jinx and some other champions

Marksmen: Ashe Jinx Varus Juggernauts: Garen Shyvana Divers: MonkeyKing Assassins: Khazix Burst Mages: Lissandra Lux Battle Mages: Ryze

PermabannedGaren9 votes

{quoted}

As much as i like champs like riven and vayne, why does every champ need to be like that?

There has to be simple champs like annie and garen too for new players, not everyone is hardcore on playing mechanically intensive champs.

Jesus, it's like you can't read or something.

There is an enormous gap between Riven and Garen. The gap between Garen and Darius is much smaller. Garen doesn't need to be a useless and binary sack of shit so that your dog can play him. The average gamer isn't put off by a champion like Darius' complexity. Every juggernaut is relatively simple to understand. Garen is just so simple and braindead that it makes his kit binary and unviable past plat.

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