Why isn't duskblade's % missing health passive melee only?

Irelia Bot·Aug 6, 2016·51 votes·2,369 views

I don't recall hearing about this item being intended as an ADC item but instead a AD assassin item. And I don't seem to hear anyone really pissed about it when used by assassins.

I can't think of any ranged AD assassins who would likely buy this item so this nerf would effectively allow MF and jhin to get it if they really wanted for the armor pen and AD but lose a decent amount of the power of the item to the point of perhaps not being even worth considering.

46 Comments

VallalanAug 6, 201612 votes

because the passive isn't even why its broken on adcs. its just there. the passive on duskblade is really underwhelming to be honest.

adcs build it as part of the ghostblade/duskblade rush for 135 ad and 30 armor pen which is intense for a two item spike.

I main MF and as long as ghostblade gives 60 + ad, 20 armor pen, and has a great active it will always be rushed on her.

as for jhin they just need to make his base ad scaling lower to encourage the crit builds to get the same ad so he cant just build flat armor pen and still hve ginormous ad because his base AD scaling is insane.

I Go Pew Pew PewAug 6, 20161 votes

You know, so many people can see the flaws in things like this. It's really amazing how rito can't.

WheatloafAug 6, 20161 votes

Flat armor pen is arguably more valuable than flat magic pen, and yet there's more of it available (I don't count abyssal. Fuck that item.)

manbearswineAug 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bermeme Sanders,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bBeTd2wK,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2016-08-06T17:56:46.756+0000)

Flat armor pen is arguably more valuable than flat magic pen,

It's not, most champions will generally have less magic resist hence magic pen is more valuable, the problem is how pen works:

The more of it you have the more valuable even more becomes(in contrast to say ad where the more ad you have the more attack speed and crit become valuable), so the moment you get one apen item, suddenly other apen items become much more attractive(on paper the same problem exists with mpen, in practice mpen lacks itemization(and rightly so)).

The big problem, and it's not just for adcs(it's disgusting on anyone who is works on), is the item which starts this slippery slope: yomumus blade, this overloaded, overpowered, moronic item is the core of the problem, the problems with dusk blade(at least on adcs) will go away if that item is addressed.

WheatloafAug 6, 20162 votes

My argument for flat armor pen being more valuable is that physical damage is generally more reliable than magic damage, but I see your point. Youmuu's having a whopping 20 pen (the most of any flat pen item of any type, again not counting abyssal (an item which is itself a slightly lesser problem)), plus high AD, cdr, and a powerful active, is a little much. Maw also annoys me, but that might just be because I'm a mage player.

manbearswineAug 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bermeme Sanders,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bBeTd2wK,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2016-08-06T22:05:02.629+0000)

My argument for flat armor pen being more valuable is that physical damage is generally more reliable than magic damage, but I see your point. Youmuu's having a whopping 20 pen (the most of any flat pen item of any type, again not counting abyssal (an item which is itself a slightly lesser problem)), plus high AD, cdr, and a powerful active, is a little much. Maw also annoys me, but that might just be because I'm a mage player.

One thing to note about abyssal(aside from it scaling with levels whereas flat pen is best early, before people get mr/locket) is that it scales badly with %pen, whereas flat pen becomes even stronger once %pen is bought.

DeathBot666Aug 6, 20169 votes

Technically Jhin secondary is assassin.

Stars ShaperAug 6, 20165 votes

item 3025

The Yetii RiderAug 6, 20163 votes

Ranged assassins that would buy this item - Twitch Vayne Quinn Jhin

The problem isn't so much that the execute is dangerous. It's that Riot has essentially combined the assassin and marksman roles on some champions, which results in probably the lowest levels of counterplay imaginable.

Regardless, Jhin, Twitch and Quinn are all DEFINITELY assassins, and Vayne is arguably one as well. No reason to restrict this item to melee only when we have so many ranged assassins.

iMaB3ASTAug 6, 20163 votes

I remember when Riot said if ADC were to start buying this item, they would make it melee only. Since ADCs are abusing this item that was meant for an assassin, isn't time to make it melee only,( at least the passive part)?

Cookimonster316Aug 7, 20162 votes

2 adcs are abusing the item

TesliumAug 6, 20162 votes

Duskblade is so OP on ADs because of its raw stat power. It literally gives 75 AD, and 20% armor pen for less than 3000 gold. Its price has to either increase to at least 3500 gold, just like any other 75 AD item, or the 75 ad and 20% armor need to be nerfed.

Pierce The VealAug 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Duskblade is so OP on ADs because of its raw stat power. It literally gives 75 AD, and 20% armor pen for less than 3000 gold. Its price has to either increase to at least 3500 gold, just like any other 75 AD item, or the 75 ad and 20% armor need to be nerfed.

Flat pen, not %pen.

SpoofghoulAug 6, 20161 votes

if you first buy it, then its roughly 20% pen vs most targets

except those who bought an armor item But its usually only the tank who would do so

At that point in the game the item gives better stats then a bloodthirster So yea its pretty cheap

VasilisGreenAug 6, 20162 votes

it's 10 flat pen. the end.

The Yetii RiderAug 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

if you first buy it, then its roughly 20% pen vs most targets

except those who bought an armor item But its usually only the tank who would do so

At that point in the game the item gives better stats then a bloodthirster So yea its pretty cheap

That's not true anymore. Talisman of Ascension gives 45 armor. It's a common early item for some supports.

Pierce The VealAug 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

if you first buy it, then its roughly 20% pen vs most targets

except those who bought an armor item But its usually only the tank who would do so

At that point in the game the item gives better stats then a bloodthirster So yea its pretty cheap

No, not at all.

iDarkWindAug 6, 20162 votes

Not only Duskblade, but also GhostBlade should be Meele only. it's being abused by most of ADCs and it's a item supposed to be build on AD Assasins. If you nerf it, will be bad for AD Assasins, meanwhile it becames meele only it's case closed. And I know there are many range who use that item, but there's no other possible way to stop with those Korean Builds.

bill84Aug 6, 20162 votes

Jayce

UlriahAug 6, 20162 votes

Nobody buys it for the passive though, since it's pretty meh. That item is only good for its raw AD and flat ArmPen values.

BloodyTomponAug 6, 20161 votes

Because it ends up doing significantly less DPS later on.

USG FailsawceAug 6, 20161 votes

For that matter everyone complains about how Youmuus is bullshit on all ranged champs, and is ruining the meta because it's intended to be an assassin/bruiser item...

So why can't Rito make it a melee champs only item?...

DreadlocksAug 6, 20164 votes

They could easily make the item less appealing to ADC's by removing the attack speed on active since most assassins don't generally opt. attack speed in their builds.

VasilisGreenAug 6, 20161 votes

Lol NO!!! Many assassins need that active for split pushing.

DreadlocksAug 6, 20165 votes

Thematically they're designed to kill, not spit push.

VasilisGreenAug 6, 20163 votes

if you take themes into the game, Xerath is immortal and can't be harmed at all, Every alive being, flesh and blood, can be instakilled by Zed's deathmark, Darius can cut people in half with one swing with that 30 kilo axe, aurelion sol would be so enormous he wouldn't be able to fit in the map, thresh karthus mordekaiser and basicaly all the shadow isles champions would dominate the game because they cannot die -what is dead may never die- and pretty much every mere human champion with no mystical powers would be helpless against all mages and Zed/shen because Zed has his shadows and shen is omnipotent/omnipresent or something... Thematics would break the game.

KushDid420Aug 6, 20165 votes

That's completely irrelevant to what he's talking about

He's saying assassins in general are made to kill and you brought up lore, read next time please

DreadlocksAug 6, 20162 votes

Thank you. Lol.

UlriahAug 6, 20161 votes

And being able to kill means they can be good duelists, which means they can be good spllit-pushers. Either way, the active must stay.

VasilisGreenAug 7, 20161 votes

he said "Thematicaly"...

And splitpushing is a good tactic for an assassin. He can duel well 1v1 or 2v1 and has means to escape. The enemy team will have to either split up to go and defend the splitpush, giving your team the 5v4 or 5v3 advantage, or will lose everything in the sidelane up to the inhib.

TilthankaldarAug 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi Im Vasilis,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bBeTd2wK,comment-id=00040000000000000000,timestamp=2016-08-06T16:30:30.251+0000)

if you take themes into the game, Xerath is immortal and can't be harmed at all, Every alive being, flesh and blood, can be instakilled by Zed's deathmark, Darius can cut people in half with one swing with that 30 kilo axe, aurelion sol would be so enormous he wouldn't be able to fit in the map, thresh karthus mordekaiser and basicaly all the shadow isles champions would dominate the game because they cannot die -what is dead may never die- and pretty much every mere human champion with no mystical powers would be helpless against all mages and Zed/shen because Zed has his shadows and shen is omnipotent/omnipresent or something... Thematics would break the game.

Your job as an assassin is to kill. Not split push

VasilisGreenAug 7, 20161 votes

Splitpushing is not some kind of defined capability reserved only for the elite... it's a tactic. Good duelists tend to spilpush because it takes more than 1 person to stop them. Assassins also tend to splitpush because in teamfights they don't have many things to do and can duel well. It's a tactic. anyone can splitpush.

DKM BismarckAug 7, 20161 votes

Assassins have been utilised as split pushers for a long time because of their capability to 1v1 who is sent to stop them, on top of their mobility which makes it easy to roam to a fight / clean up, there is really nothing wrong with assassins split pushing as I don't think it's at all the issue with assassins right now.

DreadlocksAug 7, 20161 votes

I'm not saying black and white that they shouldn't, im saying i dont think an "assassin item" should necessarily improve their ability to split push.

You can buy Tiamat for that.

UrPalAlAug 6, 20161 votes

Because there are champions like Jayce who use it. He's a ranged bruiser/ad caster (depending how he's built), and I definitely wouldn't consider him to be like other ranged champions.

ABlueQuakerAug 6, 20161 votes

Pretty sure one of the first things Rioters said about it was that it was for non-crit-based Marksmen to deal with Tanky champions.

With that said, Riot needs to remove it immediately because it's gimmicky at best on Assassins and toxic as fuck on Marksmen.

ZT XperimentorAug 6, 20161 votes

Apparently riot is waiting for ezreal to abuse both the duskblade & iceborn gauntlet in the 'pro' games.

UrPalAlAug 6, 20161 votes

Jayce

USG FailsawceAug 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

technically he is a melee champ. one of the bruisers i was talking about

UrPalAlAug 6, 20162 votes

Yeah but technically he's also ranged... So Jayce would be an exception?

Irelia BotAug 6, 20161 votes

He is marked as a fighter/marksmen.

Not an assassin.

UrPalAlAug 7, 20161 votes

I mean, it doesn't really matter actually. If Jayce fires an auto and switches to hammer stance, that auto is considered a melee attack. It works the same way with other effects. (You can can proc ravenous from range, or what I like to do, proc the buffed melee version of grasp of the undying from range).

Any other attack that Jayce uses would be in his Hammer Stance. So he's actually literally unaffected and would possibly even get a buff because of it, being the only champion that would be able to do that.

Serpents EmbraceAug 7, 20161 votes

No one buys it for the passive, they buy it for the AD caster stats. I've been building it on Jhin and Miss Fortune and I can count on one hand the times Nightfall has gotten me a kill that wasn't already secured. And that amount of times is once.

It gives armor penetration and high AD, which just happens to fit nicely as a follow up to Youmuu's high penetration, meager AD and amazing active. Together they give 30 flat AD pen, and with some masteries and/or runes you usually have closer to 40. Unless an enemy has been building armor or has some sort of defensive steroid, you've bypassed the majority of their defense right there.

Irelia BotAug 7, 20161 votes

But does the passive apply damage?

If the answer is yes then this would effect marksmen buying the item.

It is not a mattter of if it gets the kill but if it has a effect on the game.

Serpents EmbraceAug 9, 20161 votes

But it isn't factoring in to players decisions when they go for that item. It's a confounding variable, not a contributing one. Treating it as part of the problem will result in courses of action that don't address the underlying problems.