Little reminder on the "Conqueror" situation

PaffWasTaken··11 votes·6,035 views

Conqueror was added for a reason, it wasn't created only to see the game burn to the ground: bruisers have been desperatly in need of a dedicated keystone for them before conqueror's addition. Granted, conqueror brought an huge number of issues into the game, but it doesn't change the fact that simply removing it would just bring back another old issue, aka bruisers in general having near no viability against the other toplaners.

Simply put: just removing conqueror without making actual changes around it will just bring us back 2 steps behind once again. Those changes could either be the implementation of a different but more healthy keystone aimed at bruisers and/or a complete rework of how damage vs resistances work in the game, including penetration/lethality nerfs and probably resistances/survivability buffs. Now tanks could finally tank once again, but a problem would still persists. Which one? The fact that tanks got their damage so powercrept over the time, that they would surpass fighters both in damage and survivability just like before. That's why that people shouldn't act surprised if it comes to nerf damage sources from tanks: be it from their kits, from items like item 3075 or from runes themselves, we CAN'T let tanks surpass every single champions in every single area once again. We CAN'T let conqueror, true damage and penetrations ruin the game either, so if we want to REALLY fix that problem, a lot of changes must be made and people shouldn't be surprised by it; its not just a "remove conqueror and then game is balanced" situation.

13 Comments

Ragnaveil3 votes

The very thing Hashinshin speaks of to this day. Sure, he can spout bullshit for the most part, but he's right when it comes to Conqueror: It was made like this to counter tanks and skyrocket bruisers and fighters to the top in terms of viability. Obviously removing it would me tanks could possibly sock the shit out of bruisers. I liked Hash's idea where it was a sustain rune instead of this conversion rune. It would allow Bruisers and fighters to have the the edge over tanks when it comes down to dragged out fights. Bramble is an odd item that really didn't need to be added in, and honestly the grevious wounds buff should apply to only ranged users, so tanks dont become lifesteal pincushions again (which is what the purpose of the thorn change was for), but allow the once punished melees feel less punished for an item that was changed to counter adcs.

MrHaZeYo3 votes

The problem will then arise (if we nerf tank damage) that champions will simply wait the CC out and walk past them. Like if Sion comes rolling up and hits the AD on the backline, if he does no damage once they can move they'll move past him (while he sits there and AAs them) and hit the priority target

PaffWasTaken3 votes

Tanks are meant to provide protection AND cc, not damage (except some few exceptions who are problems by themselves in some metas). Almost all of them have a wide choice of various cc and some hard cc to be able to feel usefull in teamfights. If they don't have enough damage to feel like a threat to people who want to get to the priority target, it also means that there IS a priority target, who most probably deals far enough damage to be a target. Since cooldowns are so low today and that cdr is so common, tanks have far enough cc options to be able to protect carries for them to deal damage, so tanks are a threat in teamfights just because of this fact. They are meant to protect the backline, if they don't have damage to solo carry, its ok : they were never meant to do so either, or else the game balance would suffer once more.

Of course, there is still the "wait the cc out" problem, but the current meta makes it so that every seconds damage is applied to a target who can't fight back are vital to a teamfight. There is no "I dive and survive the CC so I can get to the carry just by walking by the frontline" anymore: if you get cced, you will most likely either die, or provide an immense opportunity to the opposing team

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Well, to start this out, we can't use the "current" meta as a indication of how a meta where tanks are viable or strong would be. We're currently in a meta where Damage is king, but in a meta where Tanks are now back, we have to consider what that would do to the meta.

ADC's weak or not become mandatory again, as they are the ones best suited to shred a front line, Enchanters and Peel Supports take back over as supports over secondary Mid lane Mages, because ADCs are again the end game carry, they need protection to dish out DPS. Mid lane sees a slight change due to Assassins falling out of the meta do to it being super hard to kill the ADC with Tanks, Enchanter/Peel Tanks, and what they are being dropped out for Zone/Control Mages all being able to basically protect a ADC in some form or another. Assassins will leave mid, and Zone/Control Mages or Support Mages will rise.

Jungle and Top lane are the interesting switches because obviously in this senerio one has to be a tank, if not both. Champions such as Elise, Kayn, and Lee would still be viable in the Jungle, but their builds drastically change. They'll build some offense, but most will be tankier items, because they now need to survive their dives because they won't be able to all out kill the AD target anymore. Mostly though we'll see Sej and her beefy friends resurface. Top lane will generally be a noodle fight again but could see champions such as Gnar, Fiora, and GP come back up because they offer great dueling potential early and great Split push later (not so much GP).

So with this all in mind, as history as already taught us, this is how it would go. Juggernauts could come out of the woodworks (S5 worlds-S6 anyone?) because they offer plenty of damage and almost as much tank as a tank. If a tank lost chunks of damage (their damage really isn't that high to start with, specially once mid-late game starts) we would still never see tanks, thus none of this entire post would matter.

Think of these two teams

Gnar - Sej - Syndra - Cait - Thresh vs Mao - Lee - Ori - Jinx - Bruam. Two generic team comps that we've seen years prior.

On Team 1, Sej is most of the engage, Gnar and Thresh each could engage but Gnar is somewhat random and Thresh would be better suited protecting Cait from Lee and Mao engages with the help of Syndra. As it stands now, Sej as some damage, enough to push Jinx off but usually not enough to kill a Jinx later in the game, specially one with a Ori and Bruam protecting her, so to take more damage from Sej would basically disway her from wanting to even try to make it to Jinx, assuming she could even get to her in a front to back through a Mao and Bruam while Lee would try to insect the Cait into his team and then more then likely get brought down,, but then theirs also a Thresh who can Flay, Box, Hook to slow him down or downright stop him. Syndra can QE. , and Cait herself has her net. If we take damage from Sej and Mao (The main two tanks in this game) we'd end up with a game of Sej vs Mao and who can survive longer. If Sej did make it to Jinx and managed to CC her, yes Cait could start to put damage down while Jinx can't for a few seconds, but would it be enough?

I get that in theory, you are correct, but in practice? I don't think you are. Playing this game since Season 3, I've seen a lot, but I haven't seen all the classes in League all be able to play together, the reason is because I don't believe they can. Someone is always gonna be screwed by the meta, currently that's ADCs and somewhat Tanks. If Tanks rise again, Assassins and Bruisers get hosed.

That's just my two cents.

TheSingularity4 votes

Tanks need enough damage to solo lane and jungle. But also to draw attention. Tanks need just enough damage, so that if you ignore them they will kill you (because CC is temporary, damage is forever). Now finding that spot isn't ez (closest we had was end of season 5, before pre season 6). Currently select tanks over do it or have unhealthy damage patterns eg gragas, ornn, maokai.

Tanks have always had abundant CDR. First it was frozen+visage, then frozen+visage+locket ect. So with the same CC capacity as season 3, they perform worse.

They are meant to protect the backline, if they don't have damage to solo carry, its ok : they were never meant to do so either, or else the game balance would suffer once more.

Not necessarily. We have vanguards and wardens because their respective kits are better suited for diving or peeling. There is some crossover eg nautilus. But malphite's peeling capabilities are trash compared to braum or tahm kench. While Tahms engage is trash compared to leona or ornn.

There is no "I dive and survive the CC so I can get to the carry just by walking by the frontline" anymore: if you get cced, you will most likely either die, or provide an immense opportunity to the opposing team.

In an ideal world this will return so juggernauts and divers have a solid role in the game. A key here is buffing base armor across the board and providing better rune options for divers

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Then remove tanks from the game if the class is that unbalanceable that they HAVE to win lane phase, splitpush, teamfight AND outscale you then remove tanks from the game since they obviously don't work.

MrHaZeYo2 votes

Tanks don't out scale anyone and outside of Shen they suck at split pushing.

Also your logic would work on most classes in the game.

Warlord Rhinark2 votes

You're right, just removing it won't solve anything (unless it is replaced by something else more healthy), but something about it has to be done.

General Esdeath 2 votes

Bring back Fervor. Biggest complaint I saw was that you could stack it on tanks then burst ADCs but like, what's the ADC doing if the bruiser has time to get 8 STACKS ON A TANK without dying?

Also Conqueror works the same way

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

Fervor wouldn't do shit.

It would skyrocket adcs and bruisers would still be trash because YOU CANNOT GET THROUGH 500 ARMOR with just black cleaver. It is that simple. BC is garbage and there is no realistic pen option for bruisers to build without being relegated to only splitpush which btw is a dead strategy.

Sire Hippington1 votes

We also need to see the context when it was added, for example that going grasp ment you traded offstats in the early lane for scaleing health, which sucked for bruiser. Now they can start with off stats and still get grasp or aftershock. Also, many bruiser still don't really work cause they'd need to live for more than 2sec in a fight to be relevant which doesn't happen.

Coneuror causes more issues as it solves and hinders an actuall improvement of the bruiser situation. without conqueror, if bruisers struggle, riot would need to come up with a better solution. But with conqueror, they just can ignore it and pretend bruisers doing fine.

DragonShea1 votes

The problem is true damage. It was made to counter tanks, but here is the main problem. it's their base damage combined with their durability that makes tanks a pain in the ass. Look, the main issue is Riot's philosophy towards damage.

The Bad Touch1 votes

{quoted}

Conqueror was added for a reason, it wasn't created only to see the game burn to the ground: bruisers have been desperatly in need of a dedicated keystone for them before conqueror's addition. Granted, conqueror brought an huge number of issues into the game, but it doesn't change the fact that simply removing it would just bring back another old issue, aka bruisers in general having near no viability against the other toplaners.

Simply put: just removing conqueror without making actual changes around it will just bring us back 2 steps behind once again. Those changes could either be the implementation of a different but more healthy keystone aimed at bruisers and/or a complete rework of how damage vs resistances work in the game, including penetration/lethality nerfs and probably resistances/survivability buffs. Now tanks could finally tank once again, but a problem would still persists. Which one? The fact that tanks got their damage so powercrept over the time, that they would surpass fighters both in damage and survivability just like before. That's why that people shouldn't act surprised if it comes to nerf damage sources from tanks: be it from their kits, from items like item 3075 or from runes themselves, we CAN'T let tanks surpass every single champions in every single area once again. We CAN'T let conqueror, true damage and penetrations ruin the game either, so if we want to REALLY fix that problem, a lot of changes must be made and people shouldn't be surprised by it; its not just a "remove conqueror and then game is balanced" situation.

Bring us back 50 steps to season 5 so we can enjoy shit again.

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