Twisted Fate and Pantheon should be interrupted if damaged while channeling their ultimates

darkdill·Jul 25, 2015·3 votes·22,803 views

You know how annoying it is when TF escapes you with his ultimate with 1 HP? Same thing with Pantheon. But Rek'Sai and Tahm Kench get interrupted if they get damaged while channeling their ultimates. What's up with that?!

Riot, update the consistency by making it so that if you damage TF or Pantheon while they're channeling their ultimates, they get interrupted. Give them compensation buffs if needed, but this would increase consistency among the long-range teleporters.

53 Comments

RiotMeddlerJul 25, 201532 votes

Consistency's something we explicitly wanted to avoid in these cases. The goal with Rek'Sai and Tahm Kench's ults was to offer teleports that were used in different ways to avoid overlapping too much on what makes TF and Panth distinctive. Rek'Sai has no range limit on her teleport, but can't use it to disenage easily, while TF's much more slippery, but has a significantly shorter range and a noticeably higher CD.

Consistency's something we do value in cases where it makes things easier to understand at a glance (e.g. the commonly used 'you've stunned' purple VFX above stunned champions' heads). It's not something we want to pursue whenever possible though. We want different champions to bring different tools to the game, testing different skills and creating different decisions. Additionally, sometimes a solution in one case isn't appropriate for another (e.g. Lucian's a spell cast heavy ADC whose mana costs become much less significant over the course of the game. Kog'Maw's another spell cast heavy ADC, his mana costs need to remain really meaningful however).

darkdillJul 25, 20156 votes

Fair enough.

ExecutorDillJul 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Consistency's something we explicitly wanted to avoid in these cases. The goal with Rek'Sai and Tahm Kench's ults was to offer teleports that were used in different ways to avoid overlapping too much on what makes TF and Panth distinctive. Rek'Sai has no range limit on her teleport, but can't use it to disenage easily, while TF's much more slippery, but has a significantly shorter range and a noticeably higher CD.

Consistency's something we do value in cases where it makes things easier to understand at a glance (e.g. the commonly used 'you've stunned' purple VFX above stunned champions' heads). It's not something we want to pursue whenever possible though. We want different champions to bring different tools to the game, testing different skills and creating different decisions. Additionally, sometimes a solution in one case isn't appropriate for another (e.g. Lucian's a spell cast heavy ADC whose mana costs become much less significant over the course of the game. Kog'Maw's another spell cast heavy ADC, his mana costs need to remain really meaningful however).

Hate to be off topic but I find Shen and Yasuo 's Qs having the same range is very inconsistent and unthematic on shen's part. In no way should a jab be of the same range as a throwing projectile. Him being energy based is no fine reason either as he has the shortest ptojectile range of all the energy-based champs and other tanks like DrMundo Malphite JarvanIV . Buffing the range will buff both his offensive and defensive capabilities because the current range overextends him.

I find 550 units reasonable. Also I'd like him throw a Kunai instead of his sword because him magically regaining a sword is retarded when he can have a hundred small kunais strapped to his body. (with missle speed increased to 2000) :P

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20155 votes

Matching thematics with gameplay is something we put a lot of effort into, there are times though where we need to prioritize balance over lighter thematic expectations. Having a thrown weapon have the same range as a long spear stab or sword thrust is that sort of case (by contrast if Caitlyn, as a sniper, had a really low attack range that'd be a pretty significant disconnect).

As far as Shen goes we think he's in a pretty effective spot right now and don't currently have any plans to add more power to him. It's also very likely his Q will be replaced or very heavily modified in his gameplay update (we'd like to give him a more interesting combat pattern for laning/1v1s and changing the Q will be a significant part of that).

Crowe StalkerJul 26, 20151 votes

I know this isn't related to the thread Meddler, but do you see Swain as in a good spot right now?

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20155 votes

Overall yes. We've always been a bit suspicious that Swain might actually be too strong and potentially pretty oppressive if the right meta came along. So far though that remains just a theory. Swain doesn't see regular professional play, but his balance is in a good spot otherwise. No current plans for him as a result.

MelisseeJul 26, 20152 votes

I know this also isn't related but can Yasou's wind wall not block as much stuff please, I feel cheated when I can't use my ult as Nami bc a Yasou will just save his wind wall for it every fight. That's not fair.

darkdillJul 26, 20152 votes

Force him to use the wall early with a Q. Then use your ultimate when you know it's on cooldown.

Nameless VoiceJul 26, 20151 votes

I'd be happy enough with him (and Braum) being able to block it if it properly only blocked it from the area behind the wall/shield, instead of simply deleting the entire tidal wave.

baetoevnJul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I know this also isn't related but can Yasou's wind wall not block as much stuff please, I feel cheated when I can't use my ult as Nami bc a Yasou will just save his wind wall for it every fight. That's not fair.

Yes, you could force him to use W earlier but its still true, its very unfair, there goes my ult - Nami. Time to wait for 120+ seconds.

darkdillJul 26, 20152 votes

Even though you've said "no current plans", I have something to suggest in case you decide he needs changes in the future.

Much like the reasons for the recent WotA change and Renekton's last changes, Ravenous Flock has inconsistent healing for Swain when he has to deal with magic resistance. Maybe you could change the healing from being based off damage dealt to being based off units hit. Obviously, values would need to be changed, but Swain would get a consistency improvement out of it.

No need to do this now, but maybe in the future if he needs tweaking.

Crowe StalkerJul 26, 20151 votes

Thank you, I've been wondering what's going on with The Master Tactician since the Sion Teaser a while back (and what's speculated to be Swain) and was thinking it may have been a Visual Update or a Kit-Related thing. (Related image that brought up my suspicion attached)

GavranJul 27, 20151 votes

Why do you think that hints at a rework for Swain? Swain was involved in the lore part of Sion's rework, his inclusion doesn't need an excuse like that.

Crowe StalkerJul 27, 20151 votes

Look at the Staff though... None of his skins have that Staff, at all. The closest thing is Tyrant Swain's Staff but that doesn't have a giant hand/claw on it. It might be a skin but it's not very detailed. Add that to the fact that most of the more mechanically problematic champions like Ryze and Sion are getting reworks...

The only thing Swain actually aims is his Nevermove, everything else is Auto-Targetted or Point-And-Click.

ExecutorDillJul 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Look at the Staff though... None of his skins have that Staff, at all. The closest thing is Tyrant Swain's Staff but that doesn't have a giant hand/claw on it. It might be a skin but it's not very detailed. Add that to the fact that most of the more mechanically problematic champions like and are getting reworks...

The only thing Swain actually aims is his Nevermove, everything else is Auto-Targetted or Point-And-Click.

Imho, although Swain's kit is fun... Nothing about any of it says "Master Tactician" which. I feel should be a defining part of his kit because of his title and lore. No intense thinking or reward for making plays. He currently just seems like your generic Raven Mage :p

Crowe StalkerJul 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Imho, although Swain's kit is fun... Nothing about any of it says "Master Tactician" which. I feel should be a defining part of his kit because of his title and lore. No intense thinking or reward for making plays. He currently just seems like your generic Raven Mage :p

Preach it.

DragoonRuinJul 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Overall yes. We've always been a bit suspicious that Swain might actually be too strong and potentially pretty oppressive if the right meta came along. So far though that remains just a theory. Swain doesn't see regular professional play, but his balance is in a good spot otherwise. No current plans for him as a result.

What about champs like MF, who haven't seen ANY competitive play since Season 2, and your recent "update" did nothing to fix any of the problems that make her that way.

TiropatJul 26, 20152 votes

she is seeing play, I saw her in a China game last week

ModAcademy KaynJul 26, 20151 votes

Yesssssssssss my freelo bird shall remain!

X8ViEhkPS0Jul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Overall yes. We've always been a bit suspicious that Swain might actually be too strong and potentially pretty oppressive if the right meta came along. So far though that remains just a theory. Swain doesn't see regular professional play, but his balance is in a good spot otherwise. No current plans for him as a result.

A bit late. But here is the problem that I see. Is it possible for that meta to exist, and what meta would that be? During the tank meta, the champ that you would generally pick into tanks Trundle was completely untouched. And Swain almost competes for Vladimir's spot which I think is a problem if Swain is good, Vladimir might just be better.

SigtryggrNov 3, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Overall yes. We've always been a bit suspicious that Swain might actually be too strong and potentially pretty oppressive if the right meta came along. So far though that remains just a theory. Swain doesn't see regular professional play, but his balance is in a good spot otherwise. No current plans for him as a result.

What meta? The double TP meta came and went, literally no ignites on the battlefield, and Swain still didn't see play. We saw the tank and fighter top meta come and go and Swain still didn't see play. We saw the assassin mid Meta come and go, and Swain still didn't see play. What is this magical meta were Swain actually becomes strong? I'm going to take some convincing on this because I've been studying Swain for some time now, and I'm just not seeing that Swain is ever a strong pick due to a number of reasons.

Maybe I'm just not understanding the champion, but the sheer number of weaknesses (wave control, mana, ignite dependency and weakness, low mobility, DoT damage instead of burst, pushing power, low spell range, and avoidable damage) don't outweigh the strengths (strong sustain, above average damage, strong CC)

post edit

The only way I see Swain being oppressive is taking advantage of players that don't understand how he works. If anything he's already in his oppressive state, and he's not played because people who know how to get around his damage beat him consistently.

Krys StarJul 26, 20152 votes

Meddler, boo. My favorite Rioter ( because of how often you communicate with us ). I have a question regarding interrupting ults... Is there a specific reason why Miss Fortune's ult can be interrupted by silences, but Lucian's can not? It just seems weird that a silence prevents her from pulling the trigger, not to mention the fact she's stationary and her ult can be avoided pretty easily compared to Lucian's who, although blockable, can reposition it easily and is far more reliable than hers.

I don't think it'd push Miss Fortune over too much, if at all, if her ult canceled in the same regards as Lucian's: stuns, knock ups, knock backs, charm... actual hard cc. Silence just seems so out of place for being able to cancel her ult.

P.S. You're a dreamy guy! Smile.

ExecutorDillJul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Matching thematics with gameplay is something we put a lot of effort into, there are times though where we need to prioritize balance over lighter thematic expectations. Having a thrown weapon have the same range as a long spear stab or sword thrust is that sort of case (by contrast if Caitlyn, as a sniper, had a really low attack range that'd be a pretty significant disconnect).

As far as Shen goes we think he's in a pretty effective spot right now and don't currently have any plans to add more power to him. It's also very likely his Q will be replaced or very heavily modified in his gameplay update (we'd like to give him a more interesting combat pattern for laning/1v1s and changing the Q will be a significant part of that).

Well, as long as it's fun to use and the sustain he gets from it remains strong, then I'm ok with changing that. I must know though, will zero waveclear remain a bold weakness of shen in his gameplay update? He isn't the split pusher he once was so maybe something small like Vopal Blade dealing reduced damage to enemy units it hits while in route of the initial target... Something like Lucian 's Q?

100% postive Feint will reimagined. It could really benefit from a passive. Not sure what you will do with the synergy feint and ki strike share. Here's an Idea why not remove the damage from shadow dash (since shadow dash is on a long cooldown and the damage is mediocre) and make it plain CC like Veigar 's Event Horizon or Darius 's Apprehend and move this power to the new Feint in the form of dps or to Vorpal Blade as hybrid AP and AD scalings. The reduced energy and cooldown per rank is reason enough to put points in shadow, maybe lower the taunt at lvl and the duration increased per rank. I do agree he is in a good spot right now, even seeing play in the LCS I just think he kinda struggles at his job.

I know visuals are not in your department but in terms of visuals increasing the appeal of his walk/attack animations, recall and ability vfx's really make the summoner feel at home with said champion (afterall that's why we buy skins), I just hope you guys put some much needed work into his visuals like Gangplank . He was generic Pirate guy before rework like how shen is generic Ninja Guy right now. Needs more charisma.

RiotMeddlerJul 26, 20153 votes

It's very likely we'll keep Shen as a low waveclear champion, his inability to push quickly's a really important safety valve on his ultimate.

Feint we'll almost certainly replace outright. Odds are fairly high some form of other defensive ability will replace it, Shen needs some inherent survivability.

Jesus is SaviorJul 26, 20155 votes

{quoted}

It's very likely we'll keep Shen as a low waveclear champion, his inability to push quickly's a really important safety valve on his ultimate.

Feint we'll almost certainly replace outright. Odds are fairly high some form of other defensive ability will replace it, Shen needs some inherent survivability.

So you're saying this is OP? Shen item 3074 item 3068 item 3512

JakotaJul 26, 20151 votes

You forgot about. item 3087

Jesus is SaviorJul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You forgot about.

I wanted it to be at least somewhat viable :P.

Hydra -> full-tank is viable on a lot of bruisers.

junglerboy16Jul 29, 20151 votes

that's the thing; Shiv is 100% viable on shen because he thrives on attack speed and the extra AoE and tower killing power make it an excellent split push tool.

ReconSnipesJul 26, 20151 votes

Where's the ~~Ionic Spark~~? RIP

TiropatJul 26, 20151 votes

the thing is he has to pay for those and it removes his ability to buy better items

gaby1bestJul 27, 20151 votes

If the iceboxed item 3001 hits live, Shen will be pretty (indirectly) buffed.

ExecutorDillJul 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If the iceboxed hits live, Shen will be pretty (indirectly) buffed.

Only if it becomes an essential part of his build. But yea he has gotten several indirect buffs this year... The early game power spike item 3751 and others like item 1029 building into item 1031 ; item 1028 building into item 1011 ; item 3143 's attack speed reduction increased to 15% from 10% and The Irelia nerf xD

ExecutorDillJul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's very likely we'll keep Shen as a low waveclear champion, his inability to push quickly's a really important safety valve on his ultimate.

Feint we'll almost certainly replace outright. Odds are fairly high some form of other defensive ability will replace it, Shen needs some inherent survivability.

Riot Scruffy mentioned a block or dodge mechanic in a post a few months ago. I think this would be fun, unique and very thematic for our Tanky-Ninja. You wouldn't have to make his model look too tanky if his tankability is dodge and parry, in some mmo's every class is equipped with a guard... Some stronger than others (finesse and skill in combat are traits of a martial artist, being able to parry a basic attack proves both finesses and skill)

I hope you mean your not buffing his offensive power? I am ok with it as of the ki strike buff. However, in the world of tanks, I find his defensive power very lackluster. I'm tired of seeing (damage reducs, meat shields, unearthly regeneration, beefed up resistances) on tank champions. Braum brought some unique and fun to the world of tanking.

I think a very thematic change would be to make him dodge all auto attacks from taunted champ. Think about it, taunting enrages people... and when yoir enraged you fight sloppy, making it easier for the challenger to avoid your attacks. The old shadow dash reduced damage from the enemy's basic attack by 50% in a 1.5 second window. It did not do much, my one gives him small outplay potential. I'd gladly remove the damage for compensation on this buff.

Heres TryndamereJul 26, 20151 votes

Have you guys considered making it so that when his Feint is up he gains energy per attack against him or based off damage he receives?

sp441Jul 26, 20151 votes

Good, Feint is the most unsatisfying skill to use in the game.

RexMonstroJul 26, 20151 votes

Will he be recieving a VU?

ExecutorDillJul 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's very likely we'll keep Shen as a low waveclear champion, his inability to push quickly's a really important safety valve on his ultimate.

Feint we'll almost certainly replace outright. Odds are fairly high some form of other defensive ability will replace it, Shen needs some inherent survivability.

Teleport can do what shen's ult does. All shen's ult does is reinforce (an ally) with a shield that is weak in the teamfights without building AP, an unfavorable scaling on shen. TwistedFate has waveclear, range and strong damage against Turrets. Not to mention a tele that reveals all targets. Taking summoner 12 what give him strong splitpush as he can see where the enemies are and where they are not. Teleing to an abandoned. Turret is really strong.

Julybabo14Nov 18, 20151 votes

well i dont think you will recieve my message,among milions but if you do pls consider shen's feint making him a little invurnerable.but for short periond of times like 0.5 so he has to play right and time it right(main shen here(also shen lover here)

Euijin SongJul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Matching thematics with gameplay is something we put a lot of effort into, there are times though where we need to prioritize balance over lighter thematic expectations. Having a thrown weapon have the same range as a long spear stab or sword thrust is that sort of case (by contrast if Caitlyn, as a sniper, had a really low attack range that'd be a pretty significant disconnect).

As far as Shen goes we think he's in a pretty effective spot right now and don't currently have any plans to add more power to him. It's also very likely his Q will be replaced or very heavily modified in his gameplay update (we'd like to give him a more interesting combat pattern for laning/1v1s and changing the Q will be a significant part of that).

Won't removing his only offensive ability for defensive one remove a lot of his effectiveness? If you guys like where he is power wise, you have to realise that removing his main (only) damage source will probably put him not a good spot. He'll just be a utility tank.

Irelia BotJul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

(by contrast if Caitlyn, as a sniper, had a really low attack range that'd be a pretty significant disconnect).

If you were going to make it more thematically matching wouldn't Caitlyn need to have like a 5 second reload time between shots or like every 4 shots? That seems like a huge disconnect from how a sniper riffle actually works.

Don't give us double standards just because they are marksmen.

LaceUp23Jul 26, 20151 votes

Just out of curiosity, why doesn't destroying Rek'Sai's tunnel that she is ulting to cancel her ult?

Crowe StalkerJul 26, 20151 votes

I imagine this is for consistency. While Rek'sai's Jump CAN be interrupted by damage, it would feel like you were robbed if your ultimate not only got broken by something beyond your control, without blowing any spell cooldown (except maybe mobility) and put on cooldown, especially on important objectives.

LaceUp23Jul 26, 20151 votes

But that should be counterplay. I mean, how the hell can she tunnel to a tunnel that isn't even there? It makes no sense lol.

Nicorus Jul 26, 20151 votes

I dont mind the current state things are in, but as a support main, it would be really helpful if Tahm's ult range was a little bigger. Tahm and Bard's ult I think are the same size. I think Bard's ult should be large enough to hit mid lane from bot lane, and I think Tahm's ult shouldn't be that big, but a little larger. that just my input.

RamuhdoJul 26, 20151 votes

while TF's much more slippery

It's a bit ironic in the lore for Bilgewater, TF CAN be interrupted while using his ult; Graves does it by simply attacking him!

Troy242621Jul 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

We want different champions to bring different tools to the game, testing different skills and creating different decisions.

Twitch Expunge Kalista Rend

The difference is that one is strictly better and has a secondary use of securing objectives. :x. Wish either Twitch would get some love, or Kalista's E be capped like his is.