Why Not Give Mages better AP Scalings, Utility AP Scalings, and Nerf Base Damage?

Mira Arya Enthe··11 votes·1,268 views

I mean, if mages had higher AP scalings in general, and if their utilities scaled based on AP, this means they not only could not go support efficiently but could in turn be balanced for mid lane.

My mid laners are Brand, Vel'Koz, Malzahar, Xerath and Lux. Out of these 3 have seen nerfs due to being played as support, which is incredibly unfair. Instead of that, I feel if we buffed mage AP ratios by a little, making buying their items more valuable to them, and nerfed their base damages, meaning building tanky/support items was no longer as valuable. This would fix these problems.

Let's take Brand and Vel'Koz, lower the base damages on their kits but especially their passives, buff their AP scalings and add AP scalings to their passives. What this would do, is if a Brand or Vel'Koz still wanted to support they could, but they would be sacrificing some of their damage and would scale more slowly as they don't get as much gold and typically must buy 1-2 support items at minimum.

These tunings don't have to be massive, if Brand, Vel'Koz, Malz, Ziggs, etc are still viable in support whatever. But they shouldn't be consistently better than a huge number of dedicated supports in the support role so that they get nerfed for their primary role in mid. Nor should a mage with a vision item, a support item and boots be doing enough damage in a single combo to kill 1-3 people. The tuning would just have to be enough to make buying AP valuable, and not buying AP a stronger penalty.

On the topic of pure utilities. It could be possible to make things like CC duration and such scale with AP, Riot did this with supports which is... weird since they don't buy much if any AP. It would make more sense if Malz utility scaled with buying tons of AP than Nami or Lulu.

37 Comments

Ahristocats11 votes

On the opposite

why don't you give better base damage to traditional supports? like they used to in 2012?

Rip Sona Taric Alistar Lulu

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Agreed. Why aren't troubled supports buffed in general.

Ralanr1 votes

Don't give Alistar better base damage! He's the tank that everyone who hates tanks wants to be! No damage all CC.

Ahristocats2 votes

His spells are on freaking 15 sec cd, wtf do you want alistar to do

he lost his huge AD steroid on ulti (70/85/100 or something like that) And Riot removed his old passive a long time ago that used to deal soooooo much base damage

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b8NQniZd,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2017-03-01T19:22:26.323+0000)

His spells are on freaking 15 sec cd, wtf do you want alistar to do

he lost his AD steroid on ulti And Riot removed his old passive a long time ago that used to deal soooooo much base damage

I want Alistar to stop doing magic damage and have his AP scalings on WQ changes to AD.

I'm not being serious with Alistar. I'm honestly surprised no one comments on Alistar being the "perfect" tank because he barely does any damage, has lots of CC and is hard to kill.

If every tank was like Alistar I wouldn't play tanks.

Ahristocats1 votes

Tanks shouldn't do damage in late game SUPPORTS should be a major threat in early game like any current supports (karma thresh nami for not listing mage supports)

Ralanr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b8NQniZd,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T19:29:18.910+0000)

Tanks shouldn't do damage in late game SUPPORTS should be a major threat in early game like any current supports (karma thresh nami for not listing mage supports)

In the grand scheme of things they really don't (except Maokai currently because more CDR means more spells means more sap magic heals in a fight).

LankPants1 votes

40 base damage man.

A Bad Nasus1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b8NQniZd,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-03-01T19:10:31.019+0000)

On the opposite

why don't you give better base damage to traditional supports? like they used to in 2012?

Rip Sona Taric Alistar **Lulu **

no thank you lulu is still annyoing af to face toplane.

TheHappyReaperz7 votes

I'm just sitting here imaging Veigar stun time scaling with AP. The horror.

Mira Arya Enthe3 votes

XD even if it was .1 second per 300AP this would be awesome just for practice tool and custom games.

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

The problem that lies with these suggestions is that if bases are nerfed, I could pick non mage bullies and exploit their now incredibly weak early. Mages would be impossible to blind pick because earlies would be way too exploitable when, regardless of mid or zupport, mages will have no AP.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

By buffing AP ratios, starting AP would cover a portion if not the majority of lost early game base damages. A mage starts with 45-55AP. The amount of tuning does not have to be large. Also, I would like to note most mages use to have higher scaling and AP items were worth more, while the trouble ones in question had lower free damage in the past. Yet were plenty viable.

Tychusfindlay9193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b8NQniZd,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-03-01T19:08:30.968+0000)

By buffing AP ratios, starting AP would cover a portion if not the majority of lost early game base damages. A mage starts with 45-55AP.

Then we're back to square one because you can still take mages bot.

Mages like malzahar provide no utility until level 6 anyways. Nothing changes. Mages migrate downwards because of the damage they do.

Mira Arya Enthe2 votes

No, because while strong early, they cannot scale well without stacking AP, the later level base damages would not increase as much, and thus they would have to buy AP and rush AP to maintain their damage. Bot lane has lower gold income and has to buy 1-2 support items. So they would not be as viable there. This is why mage supports were not common in S1-5. The ones who were, like Morgana, had high base damages.

Ralanr2 votes

Idk about AP scaling utility. Maybe you should ask Sona about it.

50000000000000001 votes

Utility should scale off of a new stat entirely. A utility focused build will have high utility and fairly low damage on spells, whereas a damage focused build will have high damage and moderate-low utility.

Ralanr1 votes

Or, OR, we stop giving scalings on support utility and just make it so supports can keep up in exp since they scale better with levels.

Like making sightstone give extra exp or something.

50000000000000001 votes

What items would they build? With no scaling, the optimal build would be tons of CDR and tank stats so they can spam their abilities as often as possible.

Ralanr1 votes

You basically answered your own question. Building more utility focused items that also offer some tank stats.

50000000000000001 votes

That turns every support into a tank support (or tanky, at least) though. Healers should be more or less squishy for all the effective HP they can provide to their teammates.

We already have Redemption and Locket, but there are also items like Ardent Censer that focuses more on impact per spell rather than spell frequency. Supports should have some way to scale.

Ralanr1 votes

Considering how they don't build health to support their new resistances, they're actually rather squishy.

Hands down my favorite Bard game was where I didn't build AP and went full utility. Was bloody hilarious and fun.

50000000000000001 votes

Redemption gives HP, and they usually have self heals/shields to augment their resistances. They're no tanks, but they're not as squishy as a carry either. Although I guess that's fair enough. Really, my point is that supports (anyone who can function with low gold income and with a lane partner) should have some utility scaling, but one that's not tied to damage.

Ralanr1 votes

It just seems like adding fuel to the fire to make a new stat for supports to scale off of.

chipndip11 votes

Making every support be basically the same in itemization is what makes the role bland to begin with, on top of other things. That's not a good solution.

Best solution is to swallow the pill and let enchanters actually build the ap they were meant to build ever since the change was made for them to build ap for their utility.

Quepha2 votes

make games snowballier take away champions that some support players like playing make mages super weak in the early game even though they are still outscaled late by a lot of champions make assassins and burst mages incapable of doing their job until the game has already been decided

WalkingInACircle1 votes

Mana costs are the real solution. Also needed on several bruisers (eg Fiora Yasuo... )

Spells not drawing minion aggro need mana gating.

Big Lincoln1 votes

the very idea of CCs scaling with AP is giving me super AIDS

utility scaling is kind of stupid too but it at least keeps AP from being wasteful on supports like Lulu, even if I would prefer buffs/debuffs to be flat values

GigaPube1 votes

yeah nah, reworking every single mages abilities numbers, cant go wrong at all. defs worth it to shake up the whole game yet again just to take a couple mages out of support.... games obviously perfectly balanced right now, we can just keep it perfectly balanced with no other problems, and then just slightly re-fucking-work every single mage so NONE of them can go bot lane.....

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

What if we were more specific and only did this to the mages invading bot lane?

Like, i want to play Brand mid, but his scalings are so bad and his kit wss reworked to mess up groups of people instead of one.

I'd personally like to play him mid and not feel bad about buying AP.

Cuz normally you want him tanky with rylais and liandries.

ZURELL1 votes

yea honestly im tired of seeing malz and vel and such ppl being used as supports. its kinda depressing. like a gourmet chef going to work for mcdonalds :(

and also it's kinda boring to watch. we need more supports. but i think we're about to get a new one after the galio rework

Strilter1 votes

Because then they could just build items instead of being forced to have solo lane exp. Notice the ones that support either have rediculous base scalings or have inate damage that scales hard with few items

LankPants1 votes

This should definitely be done for cancer "supports". There's really no reason why Zyra, Malz, Brand and Vel'koz should deal so much damage at base with such low scaling compared to other mages.

Trestani1 votes

because that would gut their early game mid lane

Linna Excel1 votes

This idea is a double edged sword. I mean it'll solve one issue, but it'll make AP champs much more snowbally.

chipndip11 votes

Because you'd make them all late game hyper-carries from the fucking fog.

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