63 Comments

Enloct42 votes

Thanks for a graph. Pure, unbiased info is nice.

Timewinder15 votes

Unfortunately, sometimes even graphs can be manipulated to sneakily further a claim - for example, if the graph's vertical axis had intervals of 200 instead of 20, you would notice that there isn't much difference between the orange and blue graphs. Thus you could say that the nerf barely affected Azir's damage.

In this case, manipulation would probably be easily called out upon - but that's not so true with other graphs. I'd argue that the only form of pure and unbiased info is the data table itself.

Dr Poro6 votes

Another way to bias with graphs is by starting at another number than 0 for example starting at 40 in the y-axis. Visually, it would seem that post-update the azir soldiers would barely do anything compared to pre-update.

Revert Talon3 votes

Fox News Intensifies

Buggy Doggy6 votes

Why nerf the hard skill champions and buff the one-click easy ones?

Solari Fortune5 votes

I feel the reason that Azir has dragged in so many nerfs is because well, he kinda does everything pretty well

Atanchan10 votes

That's literally it. Oppressive lane harass? Check. Safety? Check. Incredible engage and initiation potential? Check. Late game damage? Check.

One of the issues, though, is that a lot of it is locked behind an huge skill barrier. Can't Shuriman Shuffle well? Initiation potential plummets and safety takes a big hit. Can't utilize early game soldiers well? Well, lane harass can go from oppressive to annoying to pitiful. Really bad at placing soldiers and utilizing Q? Well, there goes his primary sources of damage. And to top it all off, he loses even more power without a team he can rely on.

Which basically means that outside of a handful of players, he's trash outside of pro play, and even then he's still so much more powerful in pro play than outside of it. And he's so powerful in pro play that he can define the entire game. So that's why he's nerfed so often, despite the fact that you basically never see him do anything outside of tournaments - he's basically the Lee Sin of mid, just incredibly more so.

BloodyTompon3 votes

he's basically the Lee Sin

This has been my comparison for a while now too. He has a case of Lee Syndrome. Too many strengths, not enough weaknesses and a very large skill gap (of both, elo and games played).

The other side of having so many strengths and so few weaknesses is where to nerf? The nerfs have to artificially create weaknesses that never existed or remove strengths Azir shouldn't have. Then there is the added complexity of trying to nerf LCS Azir and not solo/dynamic Q Azir.

LaserDeathBlade5 votes

Why can't we ever have a champion that rewards skill over button mash bull shyt like Ryze?

Azir is hard to master, it should come with a little bit of bonus power or else he's just hard for no reason.

EdgyPeanutbutter11 votes

bonus power.... he already has constant aoe damage along with huge cc and a huge dash...?

JMoormann4 votes

According to champion.gg data for 6.13, the most experienced Azir players (125+ games) could barely reach a 50% win rate. With these nerfs even they won't reach a 50% win rate anymore.

These nerfs are only focused on pro play, in anything below that Azir is a pretty weak champ.

UrPalAl5 votes

I hate landing against Azir. You're constantly harassed and most of the time there's not much you can do about it since he's a safe distance away. Laneing with him early game is the biggest pain in the ass out of any champion in the game. I'm glad he got nerfed. And yes, the Nerf is pretty much focused on pro play, and it's a pretty fair nerf considering he dominates pro play.

Zero Skill Tank1 votes

Players with just 125 games over two years barely have right to call themselves "mains", and by no means they should expect positive winratio on one of the hardest champions in the game.

champion.gg includes such players with actual Azir mains, thus this datapoint is completely insignificant.

Photos of Ghosts8 votes
  1. lane bully
  2. upper average midgame
  3. hypercarry

Kek.

Blåbæret1 votes

Bonus power? So he should be better than other champs? Lol. Dat logic.

flibitydoo1 votes

because after a certain point, the community's overall/average skill with a champion grows to the point where they aren't actually difficult

Lee sin is a big example of this

in season 3, people were all about how lee sin takes skill, how he's complicated and hard to play, but also rewarding (especially if you learn to insec)

over time however, the majority of the community picked up on how to play lee, and as such nowadays, making plays like the insec is just common nature-everyone does it. I guess you could call it skillcreep.

A Ocean2 votes

I'm an Azir main and his midgame was way too strong last patch. Mechanical difficulty is nice and stuff, but it doesn't warrant Azir being one of two decent midlaners in the entire game. He still is stronger than average, but last patch was overkill. A mechanically well-played Azir should NOT be able to stomp his enemy in lane, midgame and late 5v5 fights without the other skills - such as game knowledge - that you need to carry on your average difficulty champion. Don't forget that mechanical skill is not the only thing you need to win, or else you woulda carried yourself out of Plat 5 with your Draven and Vayne for a long, long time. Even "brain-dead" champions like Ryze require decision making, map awareness and some good experience about your damage. There are less than 10 champs in the game that don't even require those (Malzahar comes to mind).

Bisaknosp4 votes

hope that will be enough

warpenguin5554 votes

looks fair

IPromiseTomorrow4 votes

Azir has been punished hard with all the changes from LCS, but he's been doing bad with even dedicated mains with 125+ games. 51-52% winrate coming from them.

I feel that Azir will be nerfed until he'll only be playable in LCS, and just be forgotten until he's not viable anymore in soloQ.

It's looking to be that way: which is sad considering the players who mained him or put time into learning him are unrewarded.

Astôlfo3 votes

His oppressive early's been dampened while his late-game potential as a late-game carry is still there. It's a good start. Which is something Riot usually can't do well. So kudos to them. He's still an awful mid though, and needs more reworks/redesigns/buffs/changes as a whole though, with some of the worst winrates across just about every single factor/matchup possible.

Jeanne fan club10 votes

Really, he just needs more dedicated players. His utility is amazing, and he is fantastic if he has a good team, but many people only play him because the pros do.

Astôlfo2 votes

No, not really. Most dedicated players can't do well with him either.

Cavemantero5 votes

Removing the stun on his E and his move speed was janky. What it did was create his E to be a dash that requires a sand soldier out and his Q to be used. A combo for a dash while someone like EZ gets it for one press of a button with damage on top of it.

I'd much rather him do less damage throughout the course of a game and have the utility and movement speed. Azir is only oppressive because of his range and because people don't know who to play against him. You make him stretch and then go inside his soldier area. He is dead meat. But instead people cry and alas, he gets nerfed to the ground.

He's a bad champion now and pseudo-broken one way or the other.

Gixia4 votes

I mean, the fact that he's a frequent must-pick/ban in pro games kinda proves that he isn't bad at all, he just requires genuinely absurd levels of skill to use properly.

xevi4 votes

Azir's become the Kalista of mid-lane. Good at high tier levels of play. Suck at low tier levels of play. Not bad, but high skill floor and ceiling.

Astôlfo2 votes

high tier as in LCS, and low tier as in just about literally everything below that

Astôlfo2 votes

Yeah but they keep nerfing him because LCS, not because anyone else. Which makes him absolute trash in not-LCS, because no one else is even close to that good.

There's a reason (or several actually) why Azir is one of the worst mids right now outside of LCS. Even those with 125+ games on him aren't doing well.

So he might not be truly bad, but he is effectively trash.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

It's not just that hes a high skill champ, certain things are stronger or weaker in pro environments than even challenger solo queue, just because of the level of organization and what's important in a role.

ie Azir has issues with roaming (he's slow, cant follow other roams effectively, and relies on turrets midgame to win 1v1 fights) that can be covered by having a ton of vision of one side of the jg.

Hopefully he's still pretty good in solo queue after these changes because he is my fav champ to play

Valeckserai1 votes

{quoted}

No, not really. Most dedicated players can't do well with him either.

most dedicated Azir players aren't good with him!? Have you never watched a single LCS game ever?

Astôlfo2 votes

Most

Do you know what this word means? The chance an LCS/LCS-level player on Azir will actually be in anyone's games is so ridiculously low it's irrelevant. Not to mention, at LCS-level, there's multiple champions who are incredibly strong and can match Azir. He's not that special, except for his flashy moves and prominence by pro players. And for just about every other person who plays League, they are nowhere close to being good at Azir. Even Plat+ players with over 125 games on him have just barely over 50% winrate (50.49).

PrinceArchie5 votes

A good start? If this graph is accurate at all it literately states he his soldiers only do live damage at max level. Thats a pretty significant nerf. He can be laned against by quite a few mids at the moment moderately/really well, and with this change that only opens up more picks, while making the existing picks to lane against him stronger. Any more nerfs and he's legitimately Kalista levels of "useful". His kit is fine, it's literately cringe worthy how so many people complain about kits being the issue, when all they want is a babied answer to every champ.

As if every champ that exists deserves a hard counter matchup. "Immboile champ? NOT BALANCED IF IT IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY SCREWED BY HARD ENGAGE"! "Highly mobile champ? NOT BALANCED IF CANNOT BE COMPLETELY WEAK THROUGH ALL STAGES OF GAME!". Champions should not be balanced around the notion that theres a simplistic binary answer to every one of them. Having a kit that is versatile enough to do a multidue of meaningful things if mastered is something that brings life into the game honestly. We dont need to rework every high skill cap champ so its brain dead and binary.

Critkeeper2 votes

{quoted}

A good start? If this graph is accurate at all it literately states he his soldiers only do live damage at max level. Thats a pretty significant nerf. He can be laned against by quite a few mids at the moment moderately/really well, and with this change that only opens up more picks, while making the existing picks to lane against him stronger. Any more nerfs and he's legitimately Kalista levels of "useful". His kit is fine, it's literately cringe worthy how so many people complain about kits being the issue, when all they want is a babied answer to every champ.

As if every champ that exists deserves a hard counter matchup. "Immboile champ? NOT BALANCED IF IT IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY SCREWED BY HARD ENGAGE"! "Highly mobile champ? NOT BALANCED IF CANNOT BE COMPLETELY WEAK THROUGH ALL STAGES OF GAME!". Champions should not be balanced around the notion that theres a simplistic binary answer to every one of them. Having a kit that is versatile enough to do a multidue of meaningful things if mastered is something that brings life into the game honestly. We dont need to rework every high skill cap champ so its brain dead and binary.

technically his soldiers to the same damage at max level and min level.

the nerf peaks at level 11.

Astôlfo2 votes

I meant good start as in nerfing oppressive early while boosting the speed at which his late game power increases because he's a late game carry. Of course, Riot makes terrible decisions and they overnerfed a champion that's already weak anyways, but the general gist of it is there. I'm not crying about Azir at all, he's an extremely weak champion that needs to be buffed so he can actually become somewhat relevant outside of just LCS. But his oppressive playstyle makes that sort of hard to balance, because people will always whine and cry about that.

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

A good start? If this graph is accurate at all it literately states he his soldiers only do live damage at max level. Thats a pretty significant nerf. He can be laned against by quite a few mids at the moment moderately/really well, and with this change that only opens up more picks, while making the existing picks to lane against him stronger. Any more nerfs and he's legitimately Kalista levels of "useful". His kit is fine, it's literately cringe worthy how so many people complain about kits being the issue, when all they want is a babied answer to every champ.

As if every champ that exists deserves a hard counter matchup. "Immboile champ? NOT BALANCED IF IT IS NOT AUTOMATICALLY SCREWED BY HARD ENGAGE"! "Highly mobile champ? NOT BALANCED IF CANNOT BE COMPLETELY WEAK THROUGH ALL STAGES OF GAME!". Champions should not be balanced around the notion that theres a simplistic binary answer to every one of them. Having a kit that is versatile enough to do a multidue of meaningful things if mastered is something that brings life into the game honestly. We dont need to rework every high skill cap champ so its brain dead and binary.

Perhaps a single champion shouldn't be a hard counter to all melees and several other champions as well.

YurÌ on Ice2 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps a single champion shouldn't be a hard counter to all melees and several other champions as well.

melees are automatically countered by ranged champs, what's your point?

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miss Janna,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6geriKT,comment-id=0004000100020000,timestamp=2016-07-13T08:29:15.720+0000)

melees are automatically countered by ranged champs, what's your point?

You're right,

Except Azir can guarantee that melees won't even get in exp range, let alone having a chance of fighting back.

YurÌ on Ice3 votes

{quoted}

You're right,

Except Azir can guarantee that melees won't even get in exp range, let alone having a chance of fighting back.

you're kidding, right?

Pierce The Veal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Miss Janna,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6geriKT,comment-id=000400010002000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-13T19:57:59.063+0000)

you're kidding, right?

I actually don't think Azir deserves any more nerfs, but I still am aware of what he is capable of.

Ahristocats1 votes

not getting in gold range you mean

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=playfive Koopska,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b6geriKT,comment-id=00040001000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-07-14T09:48:02.497+0000)

not getting in gold range you mean

Depends on the melee champion, but that at the very least is always the case for almost every melee champion. Even under turret. If Azir doesn't push like crazy, he can also completely deny exp from melees.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

Uh no thanks, a lot of us really enjoy his playstyle. And his general winrate was already 46/47% before these changes. Just suck it up and learn how to fight him tbh

Astôlfo1 votes

Um, I think you missed my point. I play him a lot too, I enjoy him. He's known for having an oppressive early (or was). He also is, was, and will be an extremely weak champion in terms of actual winrates and results, like he has been for literally months. There is literally no reason to cry about Azir, but whining QQers love to cry about him. I'm all for Azir becoming stronger so he can actually be relevant lol

Calabok3 votes

he's too good at mid. RIOT DOET!

Supreme Senpai693 votes

I just saw soo many front page threads asking for Azir nerfs, and this thread is full of "wtf riot you nerfed Azir but skillcap??"

I know people have different opinions and am not saying he should or shouldn't be nerfed. But this is why Riot doesn't listen to us

Marshbouy2 votes

thank you so much.

GigaPube2 votes

the graph makes the changes seem smoother than they are. i cant stand an unequal balance of growth/difference in abilities or passive numbers. its really lazy of riot to be doing this to fit their needs. they may as well have changed them around exactly the power spikes they are aware of. around the time he finishes nashors, they might aswell make the numbers exactly how they want it. if they define him being fed by having a nashors by level 6 or 7, they might aswell change the numbers to something else stupid like 65/69/71/72/75/83/95/105 to lower his passive damage growth for soldiers at that level then increase it further along when such a power spike cant be as effective

Pls dont do this2 votes

Azir is a hard champion to master, very hard, so therefore he is hard to lane against. Yasuo is also hard, but is extremely rewarding, go do a pointless nerf on him or something. Azir's win rates have been dropping steadily.

LordOfTheLeague1 votes

My opinion on azir (pre 6.14)

-His soldiers should deals less damage early to mid game. -reduced command range by 50 (to be confirmed how much range it is really compared to marksman) -He should have access to his soldiers more often (way more often) early game with the reduced damage. Maybe a mini rework where he can replace his soldier constantly at no cost. -reduced speed for his Q.

He wouldn't be able to poke as easily with his Q + W auto because it wouldn't hit as hard and harder to hit but he would be able to poke you with his soldiers if he is in range.

Dezond1 votes

as an Azir main (125+ games 55% winrate) i have to admit the early stage of azir harass was insane it was so annoying to play against him. but this nerf is SO unfair for him. he literally does no damage in mid game and early game. with this mid game damage you will not go ANYwhere near late game. so putting my main aside and moving on to another champion.AurelionSol

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