While Karma might be healthy and even strong (especially in this Meta)

TNHA Baritone··52 votes·11,414 views
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/69/Karma_OriginalLoading.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/110?cb=20160517013610

#If she's balanced then what is the problem?

Karma her kit lacks any well put together theme.

Our main concern with Karma is that she is all over the place. She fits many categories but few niches. Karma:

  • is a poke mage
  • is a utility mage
  • is a burst mage
  • is a support
  • has little CC (something not seen in utility mages and supports)
  • has a heal...for herself
  • has tank qualities
  • has large AP ratios which suggest building more glass cannon-like

She has no real niche that we've never seen before. People say her Defiance (Mantra E) is her niche but that is just Locket and Talisman/Shurelya's Reverie combined. Most of her spells are copies of other spells that were in the game (which is why Karma is more healthy).

  • Her passive should have been and in development probably was Mantra's passive. Riot just got lazy and slapped it on as her passive.
  • Inner Flame is just another linear nuke.
  • Focused Resolve is just a Leblanc tether
  • Inspire is just a shield with the only other buff Riot hadn't implemented yet.
  • Mantra was just a refresh-able Heimerdinger ult.

#GUESS WHAT? RIOT REMOVED THE ONLY THING THAT MADE KARMA UNIQUE, HER SHIELD-BOMB AND NOW THE NAME 'DEFIANCE' MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE!

She has so much potential for creative and unique abilities that its sorta sad to see what Riot missed out on.

Here's an example I just thought of for her passive (in about 30 seconds - 1 minute):

> At the start of the game Karma binds her soul to a target. If this target dies Karma does X increased damage to the killer

My thought process: What goes around comes around. If you kill my ally, I'm going to kill you.

You'd think because there wouldn't be much counter play to that if you're punished for doing what you must to win right? But then you realize Garen's passive on his ult does exactly that.

#But..but..Karma isn't a killer

"As the Noxians advanced, the villagers prepared to accept death, bound to their peaceful vows. But Karma would not accept death and instead saw another way: sacrificing a single life to spare many others. To save her people, she drew upon the power within and summoned the full force of her will. A burst of spirit fire emerged from her body and spiraled towards the Noxian general. The flame took the form of twin dragons, the symbol of Ionia itself. It was the first time Karma had ever used her powers to harm instead of protect, and neither she nor the villagers had ever seen anything like it"

That is simple not true. Karma will kill when warranted.

#We aren't asking Riot to drop everything that they're doing to fix Karma I understand Riot has a lot of unbalanced things to fix in the game right now. And to even to dedicate a team to fixing Karma's thematic problems (because of her leak she was re-released with a rush to keep arousal high). I'm not asking for them to fix it now or even in the next 5 patches. I'm just asking them to CONSIDER this when they (or if they) do an Ionian Lore Event.

No Rioter EVER responded to any of the most recent front-page Karma related posts. So you can understand why we feel like we're getting ignored.

With that being said, I understand that there is Yorick, Warwick, Ryze and other champions that are getting updated and I'm fine with that. I just want Riot to be actively thinking about Karma to some extent in the future.

TL;DR: Despite being healthy, Karma's kit lacks coherent theme and a unique niche.

######AND THIS POST DOESN'T EVEN COVER THE STYLISTIC PROBLEMS THAT RIOT LEFT HER WITH. I MEAN FOR GOD'S SAKE SHE IS THE DUCHESS OF IONIA AND DOESN'T HAVE ONE SINGLE INTERACTION. HER DANCE IS A FORM OF SHEN'S DANCE. SHE HAS NO RUNNING ANIMATION YET CAN HASTE HERSELF. SHE HAS NO SHIELDING ANIMATION. YET CAN SHIELD HERSELF. CMON RIOT PLEASE!

######~500 Karma in ranked as Karma, I know what I'm talking about.

#EDIT: 6/14/16 WE GOT MEDDLER TO COMMENT ;O Thank you 2 everyone who brought attention to this post.

130 Comments

Rico Nasty22 votes

As a Karma main I'm so fucking disappointed that they removed the damage from her shield bomb. Like that was such a satisfying ability to use, wtf? And it was super thematically fitting with the duality concept - protect all while harming some. I think the problem is her generic ass Q.. also that W is a mess and needs to be overhauled. She needs on-demand CC.

TNHA Baritone3 votes

My thoughts exactly.

IGotScuttleCrabs5 votes

Bring back shield bomb but instead of damage it does a knockback around whomever you activated it from.

Boom. Instant cc that's gated by her ult and that brings back the offense/defense of E

RiotMeddler16 votes

Overall we're on a pretty similar page to your analysis. Karma does a lot of things, and does them fairly effectively, but lacks both sufficient focus and strong thematic-gameplay cohesion. That means she doesn't feel as unique as a champion should and that when she gets played it's often because she's the strongest at doing common things, not because she offers something special other champions can't. In part that reflects the situation we had for reworks a few years ago. We didn't have a separate team (Champion Update) that focused on doing updates right, instead trying to cobble together updates by borrowing time from other teams. That resulted in work that was either rushed (limited time), under-resourced (inability to change art much/generate new art) or both.

In terms of urgency though, yeah, there are a lot of other projects we've prioritized over major work on Karma. She could definitely be improved, but there are other champions or systems that either need the work more or, we believe, will offer a larger return for a smaller amount of change. I do think she'd be a prime candidate for work if we do either an Enchanter (closest overall fit) class update or an Ionian event at some point though certainly. Can't make any promises as to when such a thing might occur, but would argue strongly that she would be a priority under those circumstances.

TNHA Baritone11 votes

I understand that she isn't prioritized on the list and honestly I agree with that. I'm just SO GLAD that YOU of all Rioters understood the point I was making. Thank you for letting me know that you guys aren't ignoring Karma. I'm really grateful for your response.

In all honesty, I think that if any rework is to occur Old Karma should be incorporated.

Tengrichan3 votes

Maybe you shouldn't have rework her?

Voluug132 votes

She did need a re_work_, but not a relaunch.

IxtaliKing3 votes

I'm sure many of us would be satisfied if you guys just returned the damage back to her RE until you're ready to complete her fully. It's a small change that would address many issues.

SilverSquid3 votes

Yes, PLEASE!!! If this leads to problems with the passive -> cap the passive per spell. This grants also possibilities to fix the weird damageticks on her W!

Vanjie3 votes

That's right because Brand, Vel'Koz and now your team is saying "Cho'Gath" needs a full VGU more than Karma. I mean it's not like your work was lazy and rushed, it's not like you didn't communicate at all with the community, and it isn't like you are spending a fifth time on Ryze. Sorry to say this about you and your team, but you guys are morons when it comes to decisions and updating champions.

Karma Mordekaiser Shen these three should be a top priority over Brand Velkoz Chogath Ryze . You failed to give them the attention they deserved and it has been almost 3 to 4 years for some of them. COMPLETE IMBECILES.


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zrHgmN6uoto/maxresdefault.jpg That is what you were supposed to give us. What we got is a incomplete champion with a unoriginal kit and waste of time. It's been three years and you continue to neglect her. for useless number buffs that is not addressing her problems.

SilverSquid5 votes

I can relate so much to your feelings, but have to condemn the way you transport them.

Man, why do you make upvoting you so hard?^^

Vanjie1 votes

You've read my threads in the past. I was never this mean. I got to a point with Riot games where I just don't care. If I want to call them imbeciles and morons, I will. They don't listen or respond to the thousands of positive threads and about Karma, so I am doing it my own way. Maybe if they fired this moron Meddler things would get done.

SilverSquid4 votes

Honestly, the only incompetent person I have found so far is ricklessabandon. Why yes, why wouldn't you want to remove the most defining spell on a champion to buff a passive that nobody likes? Why yes, create an awesome sounding 3.25s root in her kit that nobody wants, nobody picks her for and has no synergies in her kit. Who wouldn't want a powersink in their favourite champion. Why not?

Rick seems to push his own agenda with the champion he mini-reworks (he had his fingers on Soraka and Victor, is currently doing Sona (not like that you perv :P)). I don't think he is taking any community feedback. His reworks tend to be weird, unimaginative and biased. The champions become what HE wants them to be, not what the community likes them for.

Meddler isn't here to care for Karma. He cares about the game and the business. And Karma is only little relevant for it (the more problematic she becomes, the more he will care). I am already thankful that he blessed us with 2 redposts in the last few months, solely on Karma threads. He keeps pointing towards the very crude and inefficient rework team they had back then, which explains a lot.

What only worries me is this:

  • He never comments on the removal or return of shieldbomb.
  • In this post it didn't sound like he planned anything for Karma soon. But in the next patch, 6.13, most supports will get changes. If Karma, the most picked support in the pro scene currently, gets left out for MYMU and the support focused patch, I am going to eat my keyboard, only seasoned with the sweet salt of my angry tears.
IxtaliKing2 votes

In this post it didn't sound like he planned anything for Karma soon. But in the next patch, 6.13, most supports will get changes. If Karma, the most picked support in the pro scene currently, gets left out for MYMU and the support focused patch, I am going to eat my keyboard, only seasoned with the sweet salt of my angry tears.

This is exactly what I came to find you for lol. Those supports on pbe are getting changes and Karma is getting left, with what they're doing I highly doubt there will be an Enchanter update because after this it probably won't be necessary. The funny thing is minus the animations, Karma could be sorted with low scope changes like those. Well... I guess we're going to have wait for an Ionian event ( -_-)

Tilt for Karma14 votes

The shield bomb was really great and had a lot of effect during team fights. Punish those who engage on your allies, while protecting them. It fit Karma's theme perfectly well. The passive is rather lacking indeed.

Ipressbutton5 votes

Her old passive was also thematically perfect, you gain AP (do more dmg) the more dmg you take. Her new kit is really generic and still feels like she has 1 less ability compared to the other champs

SilverSquid8 votes

Completely agree. While I have made a dozen Karma reworks at this point, take my most simplistic one. It's supposed to make Karma more of a close-combat Battlemage/Enchanter and should tackle some of your mentioned problems.

P - Gathering Fire

Karma reduces Mantra's cooldown by 2/2.5/3 seconds every time she damages an enemy champion with an ability (max of 6/7.5/9 per spell), halved to 1/1.25/1.5 seconds on basic attacks. As long as Mantra is off cooldown, her basic attacks deal an additional 10/25/40 (+0.1AP) magic damage.


_Introduces more skillchecks into her kit, in form of decision making. Increases her duelling potential in close ranges, making her more of a battlemage. Max per cast introduced to justify more consistent ticks on W and reintroduction of shieldbomb. _

Q - Inner Flame

Unchanged (maybe needs lower damage to accomodate other changes)

RQ - Soulflare

Range shortened. Reworked to targeted ground ability (Lux E or Vel'koz E). Size adapted. Does not spawn under main target hit. Visuals are two balls of energy/dragons flying in an arch to the target location.


Moving away from artillery and closer to battlemage. More consistency in close fights and less oppressive at long range.

W - Focused Resolve

Castingtime reduced (0.5s -> 0.25) . Reduced scaling (0.9 -> 0.7) Can target minions/objects now. Deals damage in 0.5s ticks (x5) now instead of 1.0s ticks (x3). Enemies touching the tether receive half of the damage instantly. Root duration normalized to 1.5s at all levels.


Tried making this more interesting and different than LeBlanc's tether. More possibilities when Karma is close and in good positions.

RW - Renewal

Bonus root removed. Missing%hp heal removed. Can target allies now. Range and thickness of tether increased. Karma and target ally are healed by 50/125/200/275 (+0.05AP) over 2s, increased by 3% for every 1% health they are missing. Allies touching the tether are healed by half the amount instantly.


The %heal makes more sense on a tank and disallows Karma from healing others with it. More unique team utility, a creative heal and a bit more of Karma's identity retained.

E - Inspire

Unchanged

RE - Defiance

AoE shield scales with Mantra levels again. Shield reverted to pre-5.10 values. Damage reintroduced. (Maybye RE damage needs delay or travel time?)


With the cap on her passive ther is no argument in denying her the shieldbomb anymore. Enough of this toxic overbuffing of her values instead of giving her real tools. Also the name makes sense again.

R - Mantra

Unchanged

ADDITIONAL CANDY

  • Haste animation added
  • Dance replaced by something that's not Shen's dance
  • Shield animation added
  • Mainshield on RE now looks bulkier to highlight the person with more shields.
  • Particles added to basic attacks when Mantra is off cooldown, to indicate bonus damage.
  • Particles and sound effects added when touching tether as ally/enemy.

Your weekly Karma rework was presented by: SilverSquid

Thanks for reading :)

TNHA Baritone5 votes

Baby. I was heavily thinking of you in this post <3

SilverSquid5 votes

As if I could NOT contribute to a good and constructive Karma post ^_^!

Seen something useful in that rework tho?

TNHA Baritone4 votes

Bonus Root removed, Can Now Heal

Amen

I'm doing a rework for her that has a new passive. But I'm struggling with making everything look clean. How do you do it?

IxtaliKing1 votes

As usual, I'm totally down for your reworks xD. That W/RW suggestion seems like the best possible solution for the tether tbh; keeps the spell familiar, brings back an old but unique mechanic and adds much needed depth to her kit. About the RQ though, how much would you have the range shortened to?

SilverSquid1 votes

Thanks man, I appreciate it.

About the RQ though, how much would you have the range shortened to?

Not by a lot, actually. Currently, the explosion size of RQ extends her usual range. I want her RQ to give her more accessability within that range, instead of breaking it (crucial if we want to remove the poke identity). Lux E can be considered a pokespell at 1100 units, Vel'koz seems to be unable to poke with his E at 850 units. With 950 Karma would be close, but it depends a bit on the travel speed and size of the projectile (and a bit of playtesting). I still imagined it to come down to 900 or 850.

Chikoun2 votes

Velkoz don't poke with his E because it's... a crowd control. It's his engage/disengage. That's why he doesn't poke with it, he all in with it. Nothing to do with the range.

SilverSquid4 votes

I do agree, it's always more valuable to save it for defense. But his E is also really unreliable on max range, whereas Karma's RQ is MOST reliable at max range. I want to adopt this behaviour, to encourage her being close instead of far away.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

What about Karma fans...?

SilverSquid2 votes

I have - so far - been unable to combine what people love about both Old and New Karma into _one _cohesive kit, while ALSO reintroducing fans as something more than just visual. Which I think would be cheating. If Karma gets her fans, she ought to use them for some, if not all spells, and as her main weapon they must compliment her playstyle as shortranged, deceptive and elegant.

If you like her fanweapons more than consistency with her new kit, you might like THIS REWORK.

Vistha Kai7 votes

She's unique at not being unique. Even Lee Sin the ranged, melee, tanky dps, assassin, mage, tank, support, jungler is unique as a champion.

Karma kinda... not really has anything going on for her anymore.

Before the rework she was a perfect champion to unlock bot lane for non-ADC champions.

TNHA Baritone6 votes

Before the rework she was a perfect champion to unlock bot lane for non-ADC champions.

This

4th3t0s7 votes

She had a unique niche back before her rework, but apparently having a high skill floor wasn't allowed to be a thing

Oleandervine6 votes

Karma is what we call a generalist, of which there are relatively few left in League. The only others I can think of are Lee Sin and maybe Akali or Irelia. She has many strengths, but she's not as good at those strengths as specialized champs. She walks a balanced line, which oddly enough fits her mystique of valuing Balance and harmony.

As for her animations, she was one of the earlier reworked champs, reworked before Riot began making specialized animations for running fast and shielding. That's not a fault of Riot, because at the time, there was no standard for it. About the time when Heimerdinger was reworked was when they began making the extra animations the status quo.

Yorukin3 votes

This. I always find it weird when people complain about Karma not having any real thematic niche, when the whole point of her kit design is to have a little bit of everything a mage needs.

TNHA Baritone4 votes

When you have a little bit of everything, you cannot have a lot of anything. They "updated" Vel'Koz for this reason apparently he didnt have a niche....

The Yetii Rider6 votes

The issue with Karma is that while she's generic, she's not bad.

Why would Riot want to work on her when she's not a problem?

All they can do at this point is pop into a thread and say "We hear you and we want to work on her at some point" which will only annoy Karma fans more than not saying anything at all.

Slamurai Jack4 votes

I highly question whether or not Karma is healthy. She absolutely dominates melee champions 1v1 and I'm terrified to ever pick one top lane whenever she's popular there because your counterplay options against her are basically nonexistent. Even champs like Quinn and Teemo are squishy and weak to ganks, but Karma has some of the best gank safety in the entire game and artificially high tankiness as well thanks to her shield and heal.

Handin Out Naps3 votes

This. Karma vs a melee is just absolute hell, it's a blessing whenever she isn't popular.

CeexSett1 votes

Even against some rangeds, the lane is pretty one sided. If you are a champion with no mobility, she E's, W's, throws an auto until you are snared and RQ'S your face for uncounterable damage. It really isn't healthy.

TNHA Baritone3 votes

Or you could...stand behind minions... Lmao I'm done. People complaining about Karma when almost every other mage can do the same thing with their nuking spells.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

That's the thing. Range can counter Karma heavily. Also she has early game kill pressure that falls off later into the game and then catches back up once she gains CDR. Once she misses / uses her ult she has about 45 seconds of unsafety. She lacks heavy CC and if she's spamming spells, she will run oom early on.

I don't want to seem mean or condescending but how can you understand how to beat a champion if you don't play her. I win versus every single Karma I go against.

Captain Aishi1 votes

karma's mana costs are among the lowest of the 'cancer to lane against as melee' type of champs

lissandra and lulu at least run oom when you try in vain to trade with them in the first 10 minutes of the game, karma's basically at full mana all lane phase with just a dring or two and there's nothing you can do about it :S

Chikoun4 votes

Hey buddy, you already know me from reddit. For the other, main Karma here. You know my english is broken.

First of all : Karma's passiv :

IMO, the first champion who introduced the habit of 2 or more passiv on the spells was Yasuo. Yasuo has been released in december 2013, while Karma was reworked on march 2013. That's why they didn't come with the way you/we want : a true and unique passiv on top of the reset- passiv on the mantra. That's not them being lazy : they were not thinking that way at the time. But i would love to see even a little unique passiv added. Even if at this point, it would be hard to add something without making her OPish.

But i have to disagree with you, on what she is unique or not.

Each abilities doesn't have to be unique in what it does. Damage, utility, control, mobility, etc. There are not so much abilities type. That's not a problem. There really are a few champ with such unique abilities that you can say "omg, i never saw that in league nor a game". You're here saying Defiance was her "unique" spell by being a damaging shield... What about Sion ? What about fucking Sion ? That's not even unique ! And her old passiv was only a good old stats give you stats stuff (even if it was less stats(hp) give you more stats(ap) )

What makes her unique in my opinion is versatility. Choice in every situation. It's not some unique ability. No, karma is not an heimerdinger like. First of all : heimer got his rework AFTER karma. Then : heimer doesn't change his playstyle by enhance one on another ability. He does make choice, but his choices don't affect his gameplay that much. Karma does. Karma has the choice, and so we have. But in her kit, versatility doesn't mean impredictability. And that's why i love the new karma more than the older one.

The older karma was all in impredictability. Nobody had a fucking clue of what she could do, what she will do, and what actually happens. One time, her poke will hit you like a baby, the other time she will destroy all your team by a single spell. And you didn't even know why. We know why -her old passiv, etc- but that was stupidly impredictable.

Karma is the only champion which does not have a fixed "plan" in the game. "I'm tryndamere, i can't do shit but splitpush", for exemple. (no offense for tryndamere main, i'm one of your lovers too) I can achieve w/e I want. Not as well as other champs could do, but they can't do something else.

**"I have seen two path and made another between". **

I don't understand your point here, and I'm not with you in this fight. Lets fight for her E animation, or a 1350 at least skin.

TNHA Baritone4 votes

BUT BABY!

The largest change that I would add is: A new passive which me and another person are currently working on. Tweaked spells but generally the same thing. And thats it...

Nothing huge that will change her spells. DW I'll release it on subreddit when its done and you'll change your mind.

Chikoun2 votes

I'm all okay with a new passive, as a said. But i don't think spells need to be tweaked, as i said, except the current passive added on the R.

I'll be happy to criticize (good and bad way) and give you feedback on your work ! Hehe

See you soon

TNHA Baritone2 votes

Small tweaks are needed in her kit. IE: Clarity on W. Sometimes it breaks if there's a sudden turn or movement.

IxtaliKing2 votes

You're here saying Defiance was her "unique" spell by being a damaging shield... What about Sion ? What about fucking Sion ? That's not even unique !

Sion sacrifices his shield to do damage on reactivation, Karma's dealt damage upon activation. It was unique in its application and it was fun.

I don't understand your point here, and I'm not with you in this fight. Lets fight for her E animation, or a 1350 at least skin.

I agree, at the very least.

The Taco Kat4 votes

Karma really isn't that weak nor is she super strong. She has her positives and negatives, but in the support role she is a tad lackluster.

Sohleks3 votes

Oh she's definitely unique imo.

For what she lacks.

Not saying she's weak though either.

TNHA Baritone4 votes

If you've played earlier forms of Karma (which I'm sure you have), you'd realize she has changed from very unique to rather plain.

Sohleks2 votes

Oh I guess you're right about how she used to be. Sadly I have NOT played that one. Actually I barely understood what she did back then (and it makes me curious). Almost ironically I only unlocked her way back then to get the special traditional skin while I could.

TNHA Baritone2 votes

She was one of the most unique champions ever created (pre-rework).

She was shitty and needed number buffs (not a rework OR at least not a full blown rework).

Ipressbutton5 votes

Karma didn't do enough dmg to justify picking her in one of the carry spots (top,mid) and she fell off hard mid-late game. She wasn't viable as a support as she needed AP because the base values in her kit could not compete with the utility provided by other supports; this is back when gold was hard to come by as a support, and you constantly had to spend it on wards.

I think old Karma would work incredibly well in season 6, with shorter games, new items / masteries and the support changes made during season 3 dealing with most of her issues.

More from Gameplay

More by TNHA Baritone