@Riot, remember what you said when you nerfed Sejuani and Cinderhulk?

Melledoneus·Jul 12, 2016·124 votes·7,256 views

If I remember correctly, I recall someone from Riot saying that you guys like to "rotate popular champions."

So why has Ahri been a consistent popular pick since release? Why is Zed buffed the moment he falls out of the meta? Why is Caitlyn allowed to be in her current oppressive state for so long?

I'm just wondering if these are your exceptions to this rule, or if I should just keep quiet about this inconsistency like everyone else is.

EDIT: I've seen claims of 'circle-jerking' and the like going around here quite a bit. I'm not sure how people are taking this thread's meaning, but I just wanted a Rioter from the gameplay team to tell me what's going on so we can put this issue to rest.

239 Comments

ZT XperimentorJul 12, 201652 votes

This has been a problem practically since the beginning, but it wasn't nearly this terrible, and it's only escalated since they've been focusing so much into their precious esports. I don't mind them wanting to make the game popular, but it wasn't tv shows & internet streams that made the game popular in the first place. It was because it was felt fair & balanced, and when some champion was noticeably under performing or clearly abusive, they quickly brought them into line; within a couple weeks, not several months, and it was where it counted in the champion kit to prevent them from drifting into that direction again. There were a few exceptions that took longer, but the point is riot didn't play favorites & they didn't drag their feet about it. This is primarily what kept it fun, that they payed attention to the community to see what was fair; and it's how they grew up so fast to begin with.

Any old time gamer here can tell you, the toxicity of the community has significantly increased as they started trying to shove the game as a televised competitive sport. The 'strategic diversity' & 'counter-play' were blatant lies to calm the masses from long outstanding frustrating gameplay; looking at the numbers through out the patch notes shows it clearly. The favoritism for abusive champions getting noticeable compensation whenever they get any nerf, yet the more fair ones only get a slight positive tweak if any. Not to mention the repeated hand-waves for the game not going downhill; despite the obvious one sided balancing act and blind eye to the venomous parts of the population (tribunal was never updated & outright replaced by an inefficient bot).

In the past few years, I've hardly played 1/10th what I used to the year it came out. Tired of the game as a concept in general? Not really, I've still got a handful of games well over a decade old I still play for having good gameplay & stories. It's clearly not the game it used to be, whether another company had a hand in it or not, I'm unsure; but I'm betting, that if they don't get their act together to start fixing it with the community, it'll fall apart in humiliation.

blueberrypancakeJul 12, 201626 votes

RIP season 4 when there was like 20 viable mid laners throughout the season including but not limited too fucking Soraka, Kayle (it was pretty cancer but at least she was a utility mage back then), Annie (as a common counterpick to Yasuo), Ziggs (who the hell sees him anymore), Syndra (look at Ziggs), and there was that one game when Millenium won with Morde Mid.

And pretty much none of these guys except for Kayle has been played as a mid laner since (excluding POE's Syndra)

VerdadeJul 12, 20162 votes

Ziggs, Soraka, Syndra and Kayle were gutted.

MightyCaesar37Jul 12, 20164 votes

Kayle, Syndra, and to a lesser extent Ziggs are still good. Kayle is still broken if built decently, Syndra's only downside is that she's really hard to get to grips with for the majority of the player-base, and Ziggs is just forgotten by almost everyone.

Miss LuxannaJul 12, 20162 votes

I still consider Annie a counterpick to Yasuo, if I see that prick put his windwall up he's getting a Tibbers airdropped on him.

MhihnjJul 12, 20162 votes

if he flashes?

It Hertz When IPJul 12, 201613 votes

Then you just burnt a 270s CD summoner spell with a 60s CD ult. Fair trade IMO.

Pierce The VealJul 12, 20166 votes

{quoted}

RIP season 4 when there was like 20 viable mid laners throughout the season including but not limited too fucking Soraka, Kayle (it was pretty cancer but at least she was a utility mage back then), Annie (as a common counterpick to Yasuo), Ziggs (who the hell sees him anymore), Syndra (look at Ziggs), and there was that one game when Millenium won with Morde Mid.

And pretty much none of these guys except for Kayle has been played as a mid laner since (excluding POE's Syndra)

Season 4 was already outright downhill. At that time, the game was already starting to go to shit. Season 3 was the beginning of the downfall, though preseason 3 was not too bad. Season 2 was the peak of the game, and the best and most fun season of all. The only exception to balance was kassadin, who was banned all the time so there was no real problem. Meanwhile today,and even back in season 4, there are and were too many broken op champions to be able to even attempt banning them out.

JunkοJul 12, 20166 votes

Implying playing agaisnt Soraka, Kayle, Annie or Syndra was fun.

LankPantsJul 12, 201619 votes

I'd prefer to lane against Soraka, Kayle, Annie and Syndra all at the same time than Zed. They probably have less waveclear.

Handin Out NapsJul 12, 20162 votes

Damm if a Zed is constantly wave clearing and you are just letting him, you are fucking up pretty hard :(.

Ariel the CruelJul 13, 20168 votes

You're right. I'll just avoid his AoE poke, ult, out-mobility him, and exploit my infinite mana.

Handin Out NapsJul 13, 20162 votes

Well let me try and break this down for you Zed's w is on a 20+ second cooldown. If he chooses to use it for wave clearing he loses his poke, escape and engage. If he even dares to use his abilities for wave clearing you should be zoning him immediately, remember that this is a melee champ, abuse that.

His single Q has been nerfed to do next to no damage, and if you are getting hit by a double Q you are extremely miss positioned. Every single meta mid laner can beat zed in lane with exhaust. You legit have no reason to lose lane to Zed other than your lack of lane knowledge.

And nice job listing Zed's strengths, oo oo let me try. How will you beat his constant spammable wave clear, true dmg passive, knock up, slows, and long range ultimate that can also do true damage to the entire enemy team. That's Vel'koz btw, nerf vel'koz pls, confirmed busted.

Ariel the CruelJul 13, 20169 votes

Nobody is saying Zed can't lose lane. But it's a little harder than just saying "don't let him farm". Especially once he hits 6 and you risk his ult assassination. Zed hasn't been called OP in a long time. He's rarely even called strong any more. He's considered anti-fun, because you are forced to lane on his terms by sheer virtue of him being in lane. Some champions do this easier than others, but the dynamic he creates is incredibly annoying to deal with. (Though not as popular, I say the same thing about Tryndamere, Susan, Yasuo, and a good Riven - all of which are also melee.)

Vel'koz

Yep, I agree. Gut this damn squid from existence. Bastard deals true damage on par with Vayne! No champion should ever be able to match or exceed an ADC!

Handin Out NapsJul 13, 20161 votes

Honestly a few patches ago i wouldve agreed with you, and called Zed extremely unfun to play against, but now its just way too easy to win lane vs Zed if you are playing properly. Zed literally gets beaten in lane by every meta mid laner with exhaust lmao. Viktor, Azir, taliyah, Ryze, Cass, and brand just literally bully him early game and have exhaust to nullify his ultimate. Zed is currently just a joke and is out classed by most other mid laners. Any high elo player would agree with this.

LordGeovanniJul 13, 20163 votes

yep the support spell mid is what justifies zed being 'healthy' or even under powered not to mention having to pick in meta

Voluug13Jul 12, 20169 votes

It all started with fucking Lee Sin.

ZT XperimentorJul 13, 20164 votes

You got that right, one of the first champions with too much damage & mobility.

BastionKrossJul 12, 201618 votes

The favoritism has grown more and more bold lately. Back a few years ago they were making up excuses like "buffing everyone up to the Renekton bar" when he was dominating top lane by himself or removing the LeeSin rework from the PBE because "it didn't quite hit the mark". You wanna know what rework didn't hit the mark but was left to happen anyway because he wasn't as popular as Lee Sin?

Mordekaiser

Nowadays the favoritism is almost blatant. Flashy champions like Zed always seem to get compensation buffs when they get nerfed to keep them strong but in a slightly different way. Meanwhile, less flashy champions get nerfed down and are left there for extended periods of time/until they get reworked.

And even then sometimes the rework is just as bad, right Skarner ? Maybe if the crystal scorpion had two instant gapclosers, long range wave clear, and an ult that deleted an enemy champion he'd have gotten the attention he deserved. That would never happen to someone like Ahri because Riot actually takes care when handling them.

And of course there's the classic "counterargument" that those favored champs are treated that way because they're more popular. Well, no shit. Those champs are popular because Riot keeps them strong most of the time, so more people feel safe maining them because they know Riot most likely won't dumpster them. You can't get that same unspoken guarantee with a champion like Viktor or Sona .

FaustavianJul 13, 20162 votes

You can't get that same unspoken guarantee with a champion like or .

"Unspoken guarantee... Sona." I see what you did there, intentional or not.

ThatHaleStateJul 12, 201613 votes

They may be popular where you are, but they arent popular everywhere. I rarely see zed and Arhi in low gold, and Caitlyn is Tier 2 adc for sure. Sure she gets oppressive after she gets 2 items, but what adc's dont. Shes really good at objective control and at a siege, which shes supposed to be.

LankPantsJul 12, 201623 votes

I rarely see zed

The only time I see him in mid gold is in the ban phase, almost every game.

zlumpyJul 12, 201610 votes

They have actually posted in rioter discussions that they like certain champs more (zed) and dislike others (sona)

chipndip1Jul 12, 201614 votes

{quoted}

They have actually posted in rioter discussions that they like certain champs more (zed) and dislike others (sona)

And that's simple: Zed's play pattern is ideal for his class. Yea, people whine about Zed ulting straight to them and beating them up, but he has a window where he's screaming to the heavens "I'M GOING TO KILL YOUR TEAMMATE NOW", and that gives everyone a solid second to prepare to deal with him. It isn't like Katarina or Talon who just blink to you and delete your coding from the game. Everyone's whining about QSS when they can just use their kit tools to lock down Zed before he has a chance to combo and beef up his ult damage. Same thing with Fizz in the sense that there's some sort of "thing" that occurs before the assassination part that slows him down from that toxic pattern of dying before you can even say "blink".

Compare this to Sona where, if she's strong, there's nothing you can do about it. You can't counter-play a play style based around passing around numbers from a distance all game, and her ult isn't the easiest to miss unless you're doing it from a decent range away or the enemy uses mobility options or high movement speed to dodge it. Since Sona's counter-play is low, they keep her in a comparatively weaker state than her peers and say "Use items to scale into a decent champion! :D :D :D". Apply this logic to everyone else with the same problem: Garen, Xin Zhao, Kayle, Nunu, so on and so forth.

Applying all this to Sejuani: She doesn't really die when she finally gets items, she does aoe damage with aoe cc, and she's kinda hard to shake off. After the Cinderhulk days, they'd rather have people in the meta that do more than "Stand next to me and drain my life away with Sunfire + Thorn passives while I can do literally 0 about it".

MirkhailJul 12, 20164 votes

I'm not sure about Caitlyn but for Zed and Ahri there is a simple reason. They are too popular and people who play then get mad so easily that riot is scared to change then too much.

MelledoneusJul 12, 201620 votes

That's not the reason.

Viktor was pretty damn popular, and they gutted his playstyle. Sejuani was popular, they gutted her too. I might be jumping the gun, but I think there is some favoritism at play here.

manbearswineJul 12, 20164 votes

{quoted}

That's not the reason.

Viktor was pretty damn popular, and they gutted him.

Viktor gutted? wat?

ModAcademy KaynJul 12, 20167 votes

Viktor is hardly gutted. If anything, he's pretty strong atm

Handin Out NapsJul 12, 20161 votes

He is legit the strongest mid laner in the game right now lol.

Faceroll TacticsJul 12, 20162 votes

Think of it like Vladimir . Riot gutted Viktor because he was changed and felt less satisfying and more clunky for the old mains, yet he is still incredibly strong.

Vladimir is tier one right now, but he went from a damage dealing solo carry to what feels like a huge distraction. He doesn't feel impactful anymore, while still doing so much, at least for me.

Velzard of KozJul 12, 20162 votes

Favoritism of OP champs is more seen on skins released. Like Ekko. It's been too long since he got his last skin so it's time to make him another one. Because who wouldn't like to play that annoying boy in a good style.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 12, 20161 votes

Riot attempts to release at least one new skin for every champion every year, obviously not including champs like Yorick who have planned reworks. Ekko's last skin was in August 2015, so it makes sense for him to get a skin at some point this year.

Velzard of KozJul 12, 20161 votes

Riot attempts to release at least one new skin for every champion every year

So why not PROJECT: Urgot? :)

TurquoiseYoshiJul 12, 20161 votes

Probably because they plan to give him a full rework and VU at some point in the future.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 13, 20162 votes

and because no one would buy it

My Waifu VanillaJul 13, 20162 votes

Academy hardly counts as a legitimate skin since all it did was change his clothes and is a 750 skin because of it.

Silly NeekoJul 12, 20163 votes

Totally the only one who mentions ANYTHING about Riot making champs strong/nerfed/meta/non meta/everything else. Dont worry you are the only one who says ANYTHING about the strong champions being strong when played correctly but often times is played poorly and feeds.......... please, I want to hear more of this already totally exausted complaint.

MelledoneusJul 12, 201617 votes

So you're suggesting that I keep quiet about this inconsistency like everyone else.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 12, 20161 votes

I don't think there's really any inconsistency. It's pretty much in your head. Sejuani and Viktor are both pretty strong champs right now, while Zed certainly isn't.

MelledoneusJul 12, 20162 votes

I think that's opinion. Seeing as how Riot can't get enough information on Zed's strength because of his ban rate.

EROTIC RAID BOSSJul 12, 20161 votes

It's not. his win rate on sites like champion.gg is like 46/47%. That puts him in the bottom 5 of all mid laners. He's totally fallen out of the LCS. Also bjergson said he's trash now soooo

MelledoneusJul 12, 20163 votes

He's possibly fallen out of the LCS for the following reasons:

AD carries became the central focus again.
Mages have become more reliable picks.
Zed is becoming stale and predictable to pro players.
Korean gods like Faker haven't picked him up recently, so he's becoming unpopular.

Bjergson says a lot of things. I'm sorry, but he's not the most reliable player to solely base your whole argument on. As for the win rate, Zed is pretty much pick-or-ban and has been for a while. If he's not banned, teams are ready for him.

(Let's also not forget that some of the strongest champions are win-lane lose-game because they offer nothing to their team but damage)

KING 5HARKJul 13, 20161 votes

Bjergson says a lot of things. I'm sorry, but he's not the most reliable player to solely base your whole argument on

Yea your points are probably better

AD carries became the central focus again.

He would thrive if that was the case

Zed is becoming stale and predictable to pro players.

Hes been around for 3 seasons, how is he not predictable in SoloQ?

LankPantsJul 13, 20163 votes

Hes been around for 3 seasons, how is he not predictable in SoloQ?

That's really not an argument. Yi's been around since the inception of League and Solo Queue literally never worked out how to deal with him.

MelledoneusJul 13, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=KING 5HARK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b1UAVuBF,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000001,timestamp=2016-07-13T11:24:14.148+0000)

Yea your points are probably better

All in a day's work.

He would thrive if that was the case

Right, I forgot about ADC Zed. Forgive me.

Hes been around for 3 seasons, how is he not predictable in SoloQ?

What is this "SoloQ" and what does it taste like?

KING 5HARKJul 13, 20161 votes

I just guess youre intentionally stupid so I'm not gonna say anything about that

Gosh DarnJul 12, 20162 votes

It's hard to take you seriously when you call Caitlyn oppressive. Literally her only issue is that she can chain-root by lying her traps under an enemy who has already been CCd. She has one of the weakest all-in in the game and her poke and traps are easily avoidable. She has consistently had a low or average winrate. I don't recall her being top tier in years.

WoonStruckJul 12, 201612 votes

Cait is oppressive.

If the person playing cait isn't a complete idiot, defensive traps alone win engagements for your team, whether its an offensive push on a tower or defending.

Cait's entire issue is that there is no answer to her traps. Maybe if minions set them off like every other one, but currently they are a problem.

Gosh DarnJul 12, 20162 votes

They give her a slight zoning power like Azir, Taliyah, and a dozen other zone control champions. The difference is that against Cait you just walk around her traps... Like I said, besides the trap-chaining which gives her immediate roots, Cait is rather weak. She's only usable right now because all the other ADCs who have been absolutely busted have been nerfed or had core items nerfed. That's how it's been since her release. Caitlyn is weak but consistent so when other ADCs are weak she comes out to play, even then she's not oppressive.

WoonStruckJul 12, 20169 votes

That's not a 'slight zoning power'.

Its 5 persistent (10+ seconds) zoning hard CC+steroids/animation cancels. Something none of the champions you attempted to compare have in their kit. Nothing else in her kit is really an issue. Its just the new way the traps benefit her and can be quickly set up without any answer outside of dying/being forced to recall unless you're massively ahead. Waiting them out isn't realistic.

If you aren't an idiot, you'll properly space your traps in a way that forces them to either eat the traps or eat every skillshot on your team, not to mention the traps are preventing any reliable follow-up from their team.

Cait is not rather weak. You'd have to be an idiot to believe that.

Also, you have it backwards. Cait was considered the opposite of consistent in the past because she had no steroid. With Runaan's not sucking anymore and her trap/net, that's no longer an issue.