Boards›Gameplay

The (unfixed?) problem w/ninja tabi on ADC is very similar to the old problem of abyssal on mids.

Bern··1 votes·498 views

I.E., you buy it just to get lane priority because the damage tradeoff isn't significant (and you're also pretty much guaranteed to be in a matchup where the defensive stats are relevant).

I'm not actually sure the ninja tabi nerfs fix this, considering the only other options on AD are Mercs (rarely taken unless you're short range) and zerkers (attack speed is the worst offensive stat). It ESPECIALLY doesn't help that the purpose of tabis is to reduce AA DPS and the only thing zerkers does is increase AA DPS. I'm very worried that, as they're designed, if they're a good choice on tanks, then they're guaranteed to be a good choice on ADCs in lane too. = /

Maybe make tabis scale with bonus AR -- e.g., make it so the AA reduction increases 1% for every X bonus AR, and start the AA reduction lower? Give them a melee/ranged split on the AA damage reduction? Just spitballing here.

16 Comments

YourNighttmare1 votes

what about ? item 3158
cdr on summs is great for adc but yea tabi's are still overall better

LankPants1 votes

This stems from the same problem as Abyssal, you can't just give ranged champs the same strengths as melees. ADCs already have a huge inherent strength in their range that strength should bar them from certain other strengths.

IMO Tabi are just an item where a melee/ranged split should be introduced for them. If you're a ranged champ you should only get a 6% DR from them so they're just a bad option.

kaironen3 votes

I think the issue with adc and tabi and the reason why tabi is always picked isn't only because it's op vs assassins, but it's also because it's competitor, beserker, isn't really needed. Adcs used to go beserker and phantom dancer back in season 5 and earlier. Now, with 2 crit atk spd items on most adcs, besides the on hit builds, they don't need that atk spd as much. This makes beserker less of a boots choice to be desired and makes tabi seem stronger than it really is on them. However, I won't lie, tabi is pretty busted atm on adc (right before the new patch, anyway).

Beserker boots in general will be more useful if you go essence reaver and infinity edge route. If you go double crit atk spd, that bonus atk spd will be weaker in general since you lack the ad to make it look better.

Khristophoros1 votes

The actual problem is lane homogenity. When an item becomes mandatory in a certain lane that means the champ pool of that lane is too homogenous or shallow.

Bern1 votes

I'm unsure about that, since Mercs isn't nearly this level of an issue in midlane even if it's the most common boots choice in pro. Taking Mercs over Sorcs on a midlaner entails losing a LOT more midgame power than taking tabis over zerkers (in fact, you might get more autos off with tabis than zerkers just because they let you live longer).

Khristophoros1 votes

Mercs are generally pretty weak because the tenacity is rarely useful. Most of the time that you get hit by a CC there will be follow up and it won't matter if you reduced any of it, unless you are quite tanky. The MR is nothing to write home about. It doesn't do anything like what Tabi does. You are better off spending the gold on other MR items if you need MR.

Tabi vs Berserkers is not even a contest. Berserkers isn't gold efficient until you're at full build so the money you spend to upgrade it is better spent working on another item. Tabi is one of the few boots with high enough gold efficiency and strong enough effect to bother getting early.

Bern1 votes

Mercs are the opposite of weak, especially on champions with buttons they can use to escape after getting CC'd. The amount of times I've seen someone live by a hair because of tenacity is slightly shocking.

Khristophoros1 votes

They are only good on champions like that. So bruisers and assassins mostly. The reason they're not must-buy in mid lane is because they are terrible on mages. The actual defense they offer is weak. The tenacity is situational/champ specific.

Bern1 votes

Then why do you see pro mids very rarely opting for Sorcs? I feel like I see pro mids (disclaimer: I mostly watch LCK) opting for Sorcs less than 20% of the time. Even that small extra bit of safety from ganks/all-ins seems to be seen as more useful than the pen.

Khristophoros1 votes

Because Sorcs are also trash

Bern1 votes

18 flat pen is -anything- but trash, especially considering preseason changes to base MR. Is it less pen than Mercs gives MR? Yes, but the pen is still a lot of additional damage even with that in the mix. It's often a significant threshold change.

Khristophoros1 votes

800 gold for 18 pen is trash lmao

Bern1 votes

The value of that pen varies highly from champion to champion based on their base damages and scalings, and also varies from game to game depending on enemy comp etc.

Also, 800 gold for 18 pen is the opposite of trash when the only other item with flat mpen builds into Morellos and nothing else.

Khristophoros1 votes

You're the one wondering why both merc treads and sorcs aren't must-buys in mid and I just told you why. You seem to want to believe there has to be a deeper reason. But there is not. The utility benefits are situational and the gold value of the raw stats is low.

BobaFlautist1 votes

The real source of the issue is that flat scalings (AP and ad) have gone down over the years, and base defensive stats (armor and mr) went down on squishies, making flat pen the king of all scaling offense on assassins. When flat pen is elevated so high, of course easy sources of armor and mr become overvalued.

haaaaaaalp1 votes

The problem is that people are trying to fix too much with ninja tabi.

Ninja tabi are too strong relative to other boots, it could use a stats nerf.

Marksmen are too strong relative to squishy melee adc, marksmen could use a stats nerf.

Ninja tabi shouldn't be used as a crutch for greater balance issues.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Bern

Why is Seraph's getting nerfed, instead of the other mana items being brought up to snuff?
Gameplay65 comments
53
votes
This seems to have gotten drowned since I posted it at 6 AM, but leash changes hurt Elise ;_;
Gameplay12 comments
31
votes
@RiotRepertoir: Did the cannon minion changes work, and what metrics are you tracking that with
Gameplay15 comments
14
votes
We're buffing almost every champion that takes a zeal item second instead of just buffing zeal items
Gameplay28 comments
11
votes
Why is Nurse Akali splash now a back alley surgeon instead of cute fanservice? wat
Story, Art, & Sound21 comments
10
votes
PSA: LeBlanc w can be interrupted
Gameplay7 comments
7
votes