Why is Seraph's getting nerfed, instead of the other mana items being brought up to snuff?

Bern··53 votes·8,674 views

They all strike me as providing far too little, with too awkward a buildpath, at a bad price point in comparison to seraph's. Seraph's is the only good choice, and the rest are mostly garbage. Few thoughts:

  • Lost Chapter is too hard to pick up first back in comparison to a tear, and that skews things very heavily. Then add in that Luden's is 100g more for an item that isn't really that big a damage difference over Seraph's on most champions, has a worse mana pool than Seraph's effectively unlimited one, doesn't help most mids waveclear better than they already do (and in fact, the large mana pool on seraph's and the mana refund accomplishes this better, in a lot of ways)... and it strikes me more that Luden's and GLP just don't do what they need to do or were designed to do. They -aren't- good enough mana items to warrant a slot in most champion's builds.

  • Seraph's already has decided drawbacks. You're putting 750 gold into an item that gives you almost zero lane presence and investing into scaling. The fact that people are doing this even on champions that WANT early presence or map pressure (and would therefore prefer to opt out of a tear), like Taliyah, indicates to me that the other items are just bad. The other items and their buildpaths just don't cover their needs in the same way old Morello did and Seraph's now does, to the point that they're willing to buy into scaling even if it's traditionally undesirable.

  • Nerfing the Seraph's shield won't make people buy the other items more, because they still won't do what they're intended to do. Yes, there's a whole lot of talk now about "squishier mage builds" and "survivability with seraph's shield" as a caster color point, but that strikes me as bonus and not the root cause, since even champions that buy into Liandry's or new Morello second item -- which means they'd have the same survivability as before the itemization changes -- are buying Seraph's. Luden's doesn't offer enough, and GLP offers virtually nothing (has it even been built once in pro play?).

tl;dr: people are buying seraph's because the other items are bad, have bad buildpaths, or both; and the fact that people are consistently buying seraph's on low-synergy champions like syndra and taliyah indicates that the other items can't do their job as-is and should be changed instead.

65 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoir37 votes

Hello, here's the reasoning and some thoughts. Essentially, we think Seraph's is a little too good. Not way too good, but a little. Hitting the Mana ratio is unlikely to make it a poor choice, but given the amount of Mana the item provides now, as well as its increased ease of access, a small adjustment seemed appropriate.

With its 8.4 update, Seraph's isn't as low synergy with several champions as it used to be. Most Archangel's build paths used to entail sitting on Tear while building other items. Now that Archangel's is a much better pick up on its own, its pool of viable users opens up a bit, largely because Archangel's stacking requirements aren't so demanding.

As to the other ones, GLP could probably still use a little more help; had a discussion with Phroxz0n about that today. Luden's I'm on the fence about, but I could see it going either way (leave as is or slight buff).

meowwow75 votes

i still blame Ryze though :3

Daunt1 votes

Because Cassiopeia and Anivia aren't abusing it as well?

Hammermancer1 votes

Ezreal Hey I'm allllll Mana item 3004 item 3003 item 3025

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

The Ezreal law is like air. There's just no point talking about it anymore. ;p

CasterGilgamesh6 votes

Mages have so few options lol instead of nerfs it would be better to give more options you cant say an item is too good when it has so few other items to compete against you just cant IMO

Altonius Amakiir1 votes

Any idea if there will ever be a removal of the cap on item sets? Or a sort by champion name function?

Lisa Tolsky1 votes

Give Luden's a smol buff for us, I love the sound effect so much <3

And yeah, y'all being so damn careful with GLP

My Waifu Vanilla11 votes

Is there any way you guys might update Runic Echoes to be more in line with current luden's if it is supposed to be similar? Luden's got a pretty massive usability buff in the addition of mana and CDR and that could honestly transfer well over to Runic and help out AP junglers who actually struggle to get CDR most times. Would probably have to retune potential outliers (Gragas again maybe since CDR goes a long way for him), but it seems like a pretty good buff to the more struggling AP junglers like Fiddlesticks and the likes.

Jungle Lux God2 votes

I'd rather just replace Runic Echoes with a real jungling mana item that lets them build something comparative to a laning AP.

Just comparing the two for a second:

Laning APs get to:

  • start building a mana item on their first back via a mid-tier mana item that reduces their mana dependency until they finish their first mana item
  • rush a mana item that makes them not have to worry about mana for almost the entire game
  • not have to build a mana item if they don't want one (hi Kennen and Rumble)
  • opportunistically use their spells to poke, protect themselves from ganks, or waveclear, letting them conserve mana for when they really need it
  • get a starting item that gives them real stats to assist their laning

By contrast, jungling AP's get to:

  • start building a fake mana item on their first back without any relevant mana component
  • rush a mana item that makes them not have to worry about mana for a whole 5 minutes
  • be force to build a mana item even if they don't want it (hi Nidalee and Elise)
  • blow their spells off cooldown in order to clear the jungle in any sort of relevant time, forcing them out of the jungle by either being OOM or getting invaded (with a few notable exceptions)
  • get a starting item that gives no stats except to help clear the jungle

If Runic Echoes had a mana component, we might actually see some diversity in AP junglers, but Riot probably won't do that since they insist that AP junglers have mana issues before their mana item. It would be even better if the AP jungle item had no mana but had late-game scaling so AP champions could build a mana item if they really wanted to but didn't have to if they didn't since (from my experience) the mana item changes back in the mage update (mana refund on Tear and the introduction of Lost Chapter) reduced the mana constraints for every AP jungler I played to a degree that Runic Echoes did not.

Bern3 votes

Thanks!

Basically, more like it's the shield is being corrected for the increased mana pool of the item and the less restrictive buy-in? I guess that makes sense, since the shield stayed the same even across the rework. Is the reduced shield duration supposed to increase skill expression and reinforce as it anti-burst?

Also, do you know where you'd look to push up GLP? GLP's niche feels unwanted on most champions, so it seems hard, and I'm especially curious about how you'd approach fixing it. Luden's looks more like a numbers job if it's changed, so that's a bit less interesting.

ltmetal1 votes

Thank you so much for your candid and speedy reply.

SettDownShutUp2 votes

Take this as input. Cut it out with the mana nerfs, champs with high-cost abilities are starting to feel REALLY bad. Alternatively, start looking at outliers for those "120 mana" cost abilities, it's ...that's not cool. ULTIMATES should cost 100-150, standard spells? It doesn't make sense.

LordGeovanni2 votes

Taric has the most expensive basic ability in the game and its effect is so minimal for the chance that everyone needs and gets hit by it on its team. Imagine if Veigar w and e or Riven riven q w and especially ult Xerath kit was balanced with the possibility that they would hit all the enemies. And tanks have less access to mana than mages with more expensive spells on average.

Jmman3 votes

Great now every mid but the few "chosen few" can build item 3092. you know the support item.

Honest question what are you doing with mages? They change make 1/2 good and 1/2 trash. Then hit the 5 extra damage and lookin at wave clear. Is the plan only make 3 or 4 mages good at all. Why not just change the ones you forget about to AD so they can get indirectly buffed. I was so disapointed in the mage rework items. WHy because they only cateried to the same old mages you always seem to look at. its like you dont seem to see or think about any of the none meta mages. You dont Care that support is the only playce they can go. Just throw a blind dart at the walls of buffs/nerfs and hope it fixes it. If you would spend 1/10 the amount of time you do on your "favorite" champs 90% of you problems would go away. Maybe you should read the deadly sins and see how you are appling them in this game.

Compare mages from season 2 to now. Tell what difference do you see. (besides every new mage have crazy damage, mobilit/cc, utility and wave clear.)

Meep Man1 votes

item 3285 just seems underwhelming in comparison as well in my eyes. It's decent, but if I wanted more burst I would pick item 3030 as it deals more upfront damage and if I wanted more sustained damage I would pick item 3003 as it helps me sustain mana and rewards me with more mana and therefore AP for spamming spells.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I feel like one of the bigger issues of AA vs other options is the mana. 500 mana with no sustain mechanic(like the old 30% restore on takedown) are not really enough on most champs, leaveing them rather bluebuff dependend or with very limited map-uptime which costs alot map pressure.

Most of the time when i see ludens, i see it paired with tear because it's not enough on for spaming out poke, makeing it more a somewhat snowbally option for burst mages rather than the go to for poke. Adding some %missing mana restore on proccing it vs champs might solve that, maybe also consider changeing the damage to a lower base with either better ap-scaleing or scaleing with levels so the imidate burst spike you get from rushing it is less powerfull.

For GLP, i think adding back catalyst might help, or atleast some hp maybe at the cost of some ap, as many of it's users would want some extra survivabillity. Though all in all , i feel it's a very underestimated item that can offer alot power to roaming mids if used correctly. Thalia for example can use the long ranged slow to set up her E+W combo. makeing her ult roams even more potent.

Zedex1 votes

Hey, any discussion on Champions like Kassadin getting hit pretty hard with your AP changes? The new Morello's isn't terrible by any means, but there are very few build options for Kassadin anymore.

I might be biased because I used to be the Morello's every game on Kassadin, the Grievous Wound made fighting ADC's possible, and the other stats on it were perfect.

That being said, I'm having difficulty finding a replacement item for it. Does Kassadin need some love taps or do I just need to experiment and research with the items more?

LordGeovanni1 votes

Morellos is even better for Kassadin now with the exception that he cant spam out his ult like a mad man now. Kassadin needs work for true though they need to lower his max amout of stacks for ult to 2 so that it caps at using 200 mana per cast at its highest

P0IS0N IVY1 votes

How do you feel about mana band being practically essential for every mage now if they want to poke? Before, there was enough mana regen that we could get by without using it and have actual options, but since these changes, we now get to use one item and one item only. What happened to all the diversity?

And what about Morello's old passive where you got mana back on a kill or assist? ARAM feels terrible right now for mages too.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Seraphs is too good but the mana ratio shouldnt be touched you should take away some of the mana the item itself gives even up to the point that its worse than before it was reworked if need be because it got a ton of cdr too.

My Waifu Vanilla8 votes

All GLP needs to be usable is the pierce through brought back. Would make it much easier to actually make picks with the item and would also add a bit of waveclear to champions that struggle with it if they so choose.

Crett5 votes

seraph's slot efficiency went through the roof with the changes. there are more ways of gaining mana in the game than ever, so they hit the shield scaling it makes sense to me personally, but that's just imo

the duration change however, i find less agreeable

Vekkna1 votes

That's how I feel about Titanic Hydra, but no love taps there.

LordGeovanni1 votes

What about Titanic Hyrdra? You mean how it suffers from riot nerfing hp on tank items every 5-8 months.

Vekkna1 votes

Talking about the bullshit damage from the Titanic active. A typical Warwick at full build gets around 400-450 damage from the active on a 20 second CD.

A Camille at full build (with Ravenous, not Titanic) with Sterak's passively procs 30% tenacity with a 3-second shield worth 825 hp (1162 if she takes Titanic) on a 60 second CD.

But the thing getting nerfed is the Seraph's shield, which has a max value of 640 on an active with a 120 second cooldown. That's on a level 18 Cassio with a fully-stacked ROA and completed Seraph's at 100% mana.

It's completely bonkers to me that tanky champs can get so much damage from a short cooldown active, or build high damage and semi tanky and still get a massive shield proc. But a mage who spends 25 minutes stacking mana items can't have the Seraph's shield without it getting nerfed?

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

You are comparing melee champions who guess what need to get into melee range to mages who have CC, Range and AOe.

Vekkna1 votes

Right, because there are no AP champions who use mana and go into melee or extended short-range combat. Except for all the ones that do.

Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fizz Galio Kassadin Lissandra Nidalee Singed

Like Camille and WW, they have some shields, heals, or untargetability (or all of them if you're Ekko). What they don't have (with the exception of maybe Galio) are carry builds with 4k+ hp, items with passive shield procs for 75% bonus hp every minute, or burst damage that scales off max hp.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Except that all of those ap champions have range poke besides Singed and only ever go into short ranged for again high burst damage combos the likes of which melee champions can only dream of having and living afterward if even having and being able to get in range before being spotted and bursted. Melee ad champions usually have to commit to do anything or have massive wind up times on the off chance they get half the auto range of nidalee on an ability. Only Shaco still has that ability and his burst is toned down every time he shows out of no where but Evelyn can do that and get a warmogs on the same ability too. Titanic Hydra's damage isnt op your champion just has no defensive stats. Camille has been massively nerfed because Camille has a Sheild that is less than half as effective as any other type of shield in the game and she cant decide when it activates but its already been nerfed because of people complaining that they couldnt burst through her shield ... but only when she combined it with Courage of the Collosus which also got massively nerfed before being removed which is overlaping shields and wasting shield effectiveness and up time the exact wrong way it should be used but Crying got proper spacing of the shields nerfed (might i remind you a 40+ second defensive cooldown keystone while offensive keystones didnt have any cooldown or scaled down to be used twice per fight). Maybe dont attack her during her very predictable shield cycle attack her before and after. You arent completely wrong though when everyone was complimenting the masterpiece that was warwick for counter play I asked what if we didnt assume the entire enemy team was ranged champions. Where is the counter play versus melee's Warwick through his Missing health systems effectively makes anyone designed for drawn out battles irrelivant through his massive attack speed when you drop to half hp

SweedishGunner4 votes

Seraphs is too strong whilst Ludens and GLP are too weak.

Glory974 votes

I main midlane and I think the 3 item powerspike you can get is too strong. item 3040 + item 3027 + item 3089 + runes and stuff = ~600 ap. Yes the laning phase isn't good, but having 600 ap with just 3 items and additionally the manashield which makes you pretty safe against most assassins is just too much of a powerspike.

Automated Riven1 votes

Please explain how that is 600~ AP. I cannot comprehend the math there. A few games ago I had 3 items w/ deathcap, can't remember which 3 and had like 362 ap.

SSJTribe1 votes

Did some quick math and those three come out to 453.6 ap based on their raw stats (as in, not calculating using the base mana for any given champion like Morgana for example).

270 raw ap from the items + 54 ap from Seraph's passive (3% of 1800 mana) + 129.6 ap from Rabadon's passive (+40%ap) 270+54+129.6

Hammermancer2 votes

tack on gathering storm+masteries+dorans and her base mana and that might very well be 600 ap

Automated Riven1 votes

Hmm. Maybe we can actually get back to mages dealing decent damage again.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Thats without champion mana pool or any runes easily 600 remember every other source of ap is also getting increased by rabadons Gathering storm Celerity Secondary rune page ap

Troll for Trump3 votes

Never buff everything else. That just leads to power creep. Always lower power levels

JPLangley1 votes

[deleted]

Troll for Trump1 votes

{quoted}

Junglers in soloQ are so fucking awful that Warwick is officially overpowered...

Actually, WW has been top pick/strong pick in high elo on several occasions since his rework. It's nothing new.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Thats really because His W cuts any melee champion that has to fight him 's hp bar in half effectively. Balanced for Ranged counter play broken for melee interactions

Dope Solo2 votes

Asinine.

Bumperlane2 votes

The new Luden's is inferior to the old. It was meant to be an aggressive buy. Never built GLP because's dog crap for poke mages. Spiritbinder's passive will forever prohibit me from buying it (takes too long to build it up and the window is too short).

Twin Shadows is nice but falls off pretty quick and is a situational buy. Morellos too expensive and is mostly left alone after the Pen component.

The whole mana item rework sucked except for Seraph's. You better buff the shit out of the other mana items.

k wìx2 votes

Fascinating.

Regardless of how you might feel about Seraphs Embrace, **this goes straight up against riots wish to create a more diverse bot lane structure. **

If you ever hope to have champions from other roles compete with bot lane marksman, then you simply must make them competitive WITH adcs. **You will never make a dent in that meta until you can pick champions who scale better into late game. **

You especially should be looking at potent items that scale well into late game, which is literally the definition of item 3040.

These changes do the opposite, take the current best mage item and nerf it. This doesn't really happen to Marksman, and It's not hard to see that this is why you will only ever see marksman botlane.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=k wìx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xckXzdM4,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2018-03-13T14:12:55.657+0000)

Fascinating.

Regardless of how you might feel about Seraphs Embrace, **this goes straight up against riots wish to create a more diverse bot lane structure. **

If you ever hope to have champions from other roles compete with bot lane marksman, then you simply must make them competitive WITH adcs. **You will never make a dent in that meta until you can pick champions who scale better into late game. **

You especially should be looking at potent items that scale well into late game, which is literally the definition of item 3040.

These changes do the opposite, take the current best mage item and nerf it. This doesn't really happen to Marksman, and It's not hard to see that this is why you will only ever see marksman botlane.

No, just no. The problem is NOT that evrrything needs to be as strong as ADC. AdC needs to come back down with the rest of us.

Colgate Gator2 votes

Because Seraph is too strong, so you want to buff the other AP items so they are as strong.

That'd make sense...if everybody built these items.

Hammermancer1 votes

Mages fucking suck right now, I 1shot them on half my roster and most champs are mobile enough to dodge their skillshots

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xckXzdM4,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2018-03-13T16:05:38.593+0000)

Mages fucking suck right now, I 1shot them on half my roster and most champs are mobile enough to dodge their skillshots

Mages dont suck. ADCs are just stupidly better than them.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

I main mid. Seraph is actually too strong and i knew it would be the second i saw the rework. Its too good of an all encompassing item, bhaving a ridiculously safe build path, scaling ridiculously well and making future mana purchases that much better, providing tons of free mana sustain , CDR, ANd having a diffensive active componant make the item too much of a no brainer. It simply too perfect of an item.

Getting GPL or Ludens instead is honestly a noobtrap, while getting those while already having Seraph is ACTUALLLY more efficient, so even core ludens GPL users are better off grtting Seraph first, and getting those later.

Nerfing it is completely justified imho.

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