You know why (IMO) we're seeing such a diverse mid-lane at worlds?

ModCaptainMårvelous··66 votes·3,320 views

The AP Itemization changes.

Those changes blew the door wide open and helped the viability of alternative builds while keeping what we considered standard builds relevant. All these price and item changes made things like Tear -> AA Scepter more viable because it now gave far more AP. The amount of late game items went up while still offering raw damage vs. utility picks.

By contrast, compare the AP Itemization to the bruiser itemization. Rather than open up and allow for more diverse paths such as Deadman's + Sunfire being on equal terms or having tank itemization being super amazing, most of this itemization made the new items completely overshadow old items. Deadmans/Black Cleaver is pretty much core on any AD bruiser. Sunfire has almost been erased from existence. Even the NEW items such as titanic hydra and steraks are seeing only occasional play in favor of the old items of Randuins, Spirit Visage and Banshees.

If the Marksmen itemization change is like the AP itemization change, we're going to see bot lane cracked wide open with the amount of "viable" characters we can have at any time. If it's like the bruiser/tank changes, I think we're just going to see the same picks with fancy new toys as we always have.

35 Comments

Ralanr26 votes

Would love more AD itemization. Kinda tired of +80 AD sword numbers 1-4.

The Yetii Rider17 votes

{quoted}

Would love more AD itemization. Kinda tired of +80 AD sword numbers 1-4.

Seriously. We have Graves, Jinx, Caitlyn and Lucian who use guns. Why is the only firearm item in the game (Hextech Revolver) an AP item?

Paladin 0f Life1 votes

{quoted}

Seriously. We have Graves, Jinx, Caitlyn and Lucian who use guns. Why is the only firearm item in the game (Hextech Revolver) an AP item?

Why are they AD?

A Miss Fortune1 votes

Because with all of the melee ADCs I see in low elo, it fits.

Seriously, have you ever seen a 125 range Caitlyn?

The Yetii Rider4 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=avZETEAE,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-10-04T13:25:35.177+0000)

Because with all of the melee ADCs I see in low elo, it fits.

Seriously, have you ever seen a 125 range Caitlyn?

I would pay $20 for a Pistol Whip Caitlyn skin.

HighH11 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=avZETEAE,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-10-04T13:25:35.177+0000)

Seriously, have you ever seen a 125 range Caitlyn?

I told her to buy a Ravenous Hydra but she said it's melee only. I replied saying that's exactly what she is

FalconPawwwwnch17 votes

ADCs are rightclick bots lol

Whichever set of items mathematically make their rightclicks do the most damage will always be used

This has been the case for 4 years

The class as a whole needs more unique champs that don't can build without relying on autoattacking like Kog/Ezreal/Varus/

9kPluzZ2 votes

dont know y you got Downvotes. Everything you said was pretty much tru

Poske4 votes

{quoted}

ADCs are rightclick bots lol

Whichever set of items mathematically make their rightclicks do the most damage will always be used

This has been the case for 4 years

The class as a whole needs more unique champs that don't can build without relying on autoattacking like Kog/Ezreal/Varus/

No idea why you got downvoted ..

You only said the truth

Thing is Midlane is far more unique in terms of which every champion offers. Seriously there are only few champions who are outclassed like brand

ADC is like you said all about the rightclicks so lots of stuff ... get outclassed

OperationDEEZ18 votes

So does that mean we'll get ADC TwistedFate ? C:

SEKAI3 votes

{quoted}

So does that mean we'll get ADC TwistedFate ? C:

About time for him to come back home at bot.

Curling Veigar2 votes

i agree mostly except for the fact when every team always locks lulu mid when its open

gubigubi1 votes

And viktor and azir

Chuck Charles2 votes

its not just the ap itemization changes but thats a part of it. I think the biggest thing is that there are so many different classes viable at once. Last year at worlds it was pretty much burst burst burst. assassins or burst mages were pretty much the only way to go. I mean you had teams going full split push comps with all squishies pretty regularly.

now, tanks are viable, fighters(at least the op ones) are viable, and because the first two are viable that means control mages and poke champs are also credible. It's a lot more fun in my opinion. Sure there are a few really bad eggs, but there is every year. Mordekaiser, Gangplank stand out as the most egregious. Beyond that though I'm excited for any changes up coming.

The marksman update should be pretty good. I just hope they don't remove crit in favor of an ashe like crit. Rather I think they should be spreading the crit dmg from infinity edge to other items so you dont necessarily have to rush infinity edge into another crit item. I mean if you could simply have your choice of item and then build a second item that gives you some crit and some crit dmg that would be enough to bring diversity to build paths.

BasedJarvan4202 votes

They nerfed BT because they said it was by default the best "go to" first item, but then everyone just started buying IE first which put us back in the same situation. LMAO they even BUFFED IE while nerfing BT in the same patch (4.10) look it up.

This marksman update needs to be a massive overhaul if they really want things to change. Of course we all know things won't change, because people will simply buy what does the most damage and will only use ADCs that have the best synergy with the new items and completely ignore the rest.

Ionian1 votes

I love how now I can buy rylais without losing potential ap. Such an op item on champions like Ahri.

Tilt Thru Time1 votes

I'm so glad to see a positive thread, they're so tough to find in the see of circlejerk threads.

headlesslyte1 votes

{quoted}

I'm so glad to see a positive thread, they're so tough to find in the see of circlejerk threads.

you see that becuase riot has made them happen you dont have to believe me jsut remember east coast ping threads if you can

what i would love to see from riot is how many perma bans happen in ranked vs normals im 90% sure they are only bothering with ranked tb becuase of this one issue..

rusty from a two weak ban into none stop bot and feeders liek this game so rusty idgaf about the perma or id still be refusign to play ruiots shit and hasnt bohtred thinkabout the people who have to deal with the feeders and trash worse in ranked

i asked for my perma and got it

this game i had i must play cho supp 4/17 adc no gank anywhere but Veigar mid no dragon shaco jungle

only person this game that deserved any kind of respect was veigar this game was amking me lose my mind so i had to make this choice and yes i mean only that veigar deserved respect. i was lee top went 11/11/9

i was improving as a player but the games only got worse and worse since the tribunal went down. if im going to hit a perma because of the trash that is infesting ranked that would stop feeding afk ect which was roughly 60% of my games

im not starting anything her im just saying riot hasn't realized how much damage they have done this last year end of s6 next year this will be a different game then any one from season 3 or back knew gl hopefully none of you end up hating this game like i did

p.s. if only i had enjoyed normals and given up on ranked

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

Maybe now I won't have to buy IE literally every game.

Paladin 0f Life1 votes

It's actually cool how the meta is shifting to more tank sup fighter tops and assassin jungs

LitoJ1 votes

I'm hoping, in some way, this makes Quinn more viable in the botlane if her kit were to not be touched anytime soon.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

getting reworked pre season

Delioth1 votes

Would like to note here to avoid some people freaking out- it was announced to be a little one; there are no major changes, mostly bugfixing/fixing the awkwardness it is to play Quinn (like how at some ranges your auto's 'hit' sound will play before your shot is ever registered as having left your crossbow). Along with some things that make it hard to balance her (I'd imagine the little knockup on her vault and maybe something with blind.)

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Haven't seen the notes, please tell me her wonky passive is getting tweaked as well.

T RexHasTinyArms1 votes

I think part of it is the difference between bruisers and mid lane in terms of variation. There are so many more strategic niches in mid lane (ie burst mage, sustained dps mage, ad assassin, utility mage for shields etc, and kite mage who does utility but mainly damage (like Anivia))

Top lane has variability, but tanks and utility mages don't build like bruisers and bruisers tend to build pretty similar bc even if they do it different ways they all have the exact same role "do enough damage to be a threat, while being tanky enough to make the enemy burn a lot of resources killing you." It's just a lack of diversity w/ in the role.

Great point about the AP items though. Probably the best rework that rito has done in a while.

Llanite1 votes

Mid and top are the most versatile, because the only requirement is being able to dig out DPS. You can be an assassin, an artillery, even adc or Tank, none matters.

Other lane does not have such flexibility. Support, for instance, is required to provide utility, no matter how support itemization gets changed, you still can't bring Katarina to support. Adc is required to be a ranged DPS who scales with AD, no matter how their build paths change, Aatrox still won't be able to be adc.

Think this way, it doesn't matter who you bring to a soccer match, a goalkeeper is always required, everyone else can be moved tactically, but the goalkeeper.

ModCaptainMårvelous1 votes

This is not necessarily true, as a big portion of what works/fails in lanes is how you can itemize early-to-mid. The reason many champions go jungle is because their laning is too unsafe but you still want to bring something they offer to the table. As for what I'm basing my analysis on, using the metrics that are provided here.

Using this:

  • Top has seen 13 champions played, 2 of them (Darius/Gnar) seeing picks beyond 5.
  • Jungle has seen 10 champions played, 3 of which (Elise/Rek/Grag) seeing picks beyond/at 5.
  • Mid lane has seen 18 champions played, 2 of them (Lulu/Azir) seeing picks beyond/at 5.
  • ADC has seen 9 champions played, 3 of them (Trist/Sivir/Kalista) seeing picks beyond 5
  • Support has seen 8 champions played, 4 of them (Thresh/Annie/Braum/Alistar) seeing picks beyond 5.

My point is that Mid lane has seen more unique picks than ADC and support combined, almost double Jungle's diversity and still having about 1/3 more than top lane. In Worlds, by far, mid has been the absolutely most diverse.

PS: Mid and Top have other requirements than bringing DPS. What the majority of mid laners pick is dependent on what the meta calls for at the moment. See season 3's hyperfocus on assassins mid or the large majority of S5 where we saw tanks/bruisers leaning toward tank such as Maokai and Naut.

Llanite1 votes

Other lane cannot afford such diversity, because we have to maintain certain hard rules: +There are only 4 sources of income, one person has to resolve with a champ who does not need a lot of gold. +There are only 4 sources of EXP, 2 people have to resolve with champs that do not need a lot of EXP. +There is only 1 blue, only 1 person can be a liberal mana user. +A tank and a ranged DPS are required. There is always a person who is forced to tank and another person to be ranged DPS.

Now you have mid who does not have to maintain any of these rules, obviously there would be more freedom/diversity. It's the nature of the game, itemization can't fix it. Other lanes will continue to have less flexibility unless one of those changes (i.e. Morde can go bot because his passive breaks rule#2).

ModCaptainMårvelous2 votes
  • Only four sources of income, this is true. But I fail to see how this equates to "Only one person can get gold in top, we can only get certain champs in top."
  • This is true as well. I still fail to see how it relates to "Because two champs need less XP, you can't have diversity in that lane."
  • False. There are two blues. And it's completely possible to have more than normal mana users. It happened in S1 and S2, it can easily happen again.
  • Ranged DPS, yes. Tank, no. Tanks go in and out of meta. There are periods where we see nothing but bruisers replacing tanks or tanks replacing bruisers. You don't NEED a tank, what you sometimes need is an initiator. In fact, we're seeing more tanky DPS top in worlds than initiators.

The most damning evidence against you is that, even if all your rules were true, they still don't account for why mid is so diverse vesus top lane, which follows the same rules. There's another factor here.

Llanite3 votes

1/ Top isn't constrained by rule#1 but rule#4, either s/he or jungle has to tank, if the jungle is semi-tank/squishy, top has to pick a true tank.

2/ If someone requires EXP to function, or s/he will be relatively weak/useless without. Would it not make more sense to pick someone who still works well without EXP? To put it in simple term. You can bring 5 people to open a restaurant which has 4 stoves. Would it make more sense to have 4 cooks and an accountant, than 5 cooks, one of which can neither cook(no stove) or do paperwork (no skill)?

3/ And I suppose you could travel across the map, from top to their blue, and take it, flawlessly, every 4 minutes. If you could do that consistently, yes, top would have the same diversity as mid.

4/ 'tank', by definition, is someone who soaks the dmg, how or what he builds is irrelevant. You cannot run 5 squishy without jeopardizing the game, so yes, one of the slot is reserved for a melee who has defense steroid, and whoever taking that role has their hands tied.

5/ Top isn't as diverse because they are constrained by #4: We need a tank. So unless mid picks a semi-tanky (often doesn't), top cannot pick a squishy.

Ralanr1 votes

The only tank mid I can think of is Galio, Vladimir, and Chogath, only Galio has actual tank abilities.

It kinda sucks really, because we can have tanks in the jungle and we have lots of tank supports, but top lane is often full of tanks or tank hybrids. Makes me think assassins have been pushed to mid and jungle (I consider the jungle the assassin playground despite many popular junglers not being assassins) and now all assassins are good in those areas.

The AD item overhall will help top lane too, can't imagine there being all ranged only items in the new line up.

Llanite1 votes

New itemization won't change anything. If new AD makes glass AD really good at top, then jungler will be force to pick tank most of the times, and becomes even less diverse.

Ralanr1 votes

Wouldn't that really mess up soloQ given how devourer junglers break cinderhulk junglers?

darkmatchwaldo2 votes

Mordekaiser disagrees.

The Loveless1 votes

Hi Captain!

I do hope the marksman update doesn't make only a few items core, such as what we see juggernauts rushing in top lane as go-tos.

Sunfire was shit when they gave it scaling damage that started off low. 45 damage a second late game is nothing compared to how much more threatening it could be at level 7-8, for example.

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