Yeah, remember that? His mobility!
So he would have to make meaningful choices about going in and not just dance all over the place with very little risk to his plays.
I thought I'd remind you, since you pretty much just 180° the guy to the original state that made you nerf him in the first place. Or you didn't notice? Or wait... it's on purpose, isn't it?
1000angrybees64 votesZed is such a pain in the ass to balance and he's absolutely NOT the posterchild for a 'healthy assassin'
He's not supposed to be an easy champ to play but god damn if his laning phase isn't a stroll through a god damn meadow considering just about every other midlaner has actual problems that they need to work around
His number one problem is when his opponent takes 6 years to build zhonya's or sacrifices every other necessary stat to build QSS.
Boo fucking hoo.
My Waifu Vanilla39 votesWhat Assassin do you consider healthy then? Talon? If he is ahead of you he will 100-0 you every time you walk into his lane. Akali? Definition of a stat checker. LeBlanc? Same issues as Zed. Diana? Also a stat checker. Rengar and Kha'zix are damn near impossible to balance because they are either trash tier or 100-0 you in under a second as there seems to be no middle ground with them. Like if you are going to say Zed isn't a healthy assassin then what do you consider one that IS healthy since the rest of the roster is much worse than Zed when they are at their prime.
hopeful413 votes+1000 this anti Zed circlejerk in here is so fucking dumb. The other assasins have been far more problematic than Zed ever was.
ereiserengo7 votesIn this community every assassin is considered unhealthy and most of the time is cause ppl dont know how to play against them! An assassin should be an high risk high reward champ, u get fed-->carry, u fall behind -> 4v5. For me its fine like this, but then ppl let rengar powerfarm till 6 with no counter jungling , dont buy pinks and then are surprised he can one shot...riot nerfed rengo, it will nerf zed and thr cycle will continue. Every season there s an assassin that has to be nerfed to the ground and become unplayable for a while. (Se kha in s4 and look at him in s5)
Ps. Lil biased on rengo since is my main..but CMON!
The Ginger Ninga9 votesAlright man, I can kinda see where you are coming from, but you need to work on your argument. Work on your spacing, your words seem to just smash together. Make sure you spell your words properly, it really helps you seem more professional.
And for your counter play of Rengar, you should know that even when falling behind slightly, Rengar still poses a massive threat to any squishy because he can just pick up a kill after a team fight with his ult. Assassin´s are very good at returning from a poor early game, simply because their targets do not build defensive items often, so when the assassin gets enough stats to kill them, they can just kill them.
OyddAWqJ5r67 votesAssassins should 100-0 people. It's the circumstances in which they do so or the extra effects that matter.
Zed? 100-0's people in plain sight of their allies. And he can press R to undo his in-the-middle-of-the-whole-enemy-team predicament. Also he has the safest early game of any champion. Low risk high reward playstyle. Not healthy at all.
Talon? 100-0's the target only if noone peels. Also deals massive AoE and doesn't have a reliable out to his in. Also has a terrible laning phase. Healthy.
Diana? 100-0's people in plain sight but hers is far more telegraphed than any other (while not turning untargetable like Zed). Has a mediocre laning phase.
Rengar? Fuck no, nerf it. Thnx Riot.
Akali? Fuck no too, rework it. Thnx again Riot.
Kha'Zix? Potentially healthy but currently kept in an undertuned state for whatever reason. His 100-0 requires isolation -- something that Riot has determined is the length of a football field.
Weeb Guardian23 votes+1 for the kha'zix info
so true
SnugglePuggle942 votesTotally agree, and if Diana uses her only mobility to all in, she has no escapes.
Diananmen Square20 votesHe also forgot Katarina, which IMO is a totally health champ.
She has to kill someone when she goes in in order to get an escape out and needs to know when to go in or she gets blown up.
B1naryB0t4 votesI think the only issue with Kat is that she can turn a single kill into a penta because not only can she escape but suddenly she can damage again too.
Not saying she doesn't have counterplay, just saying it's annoying that an assassin turns into a mobile low range burst mage.
Ñapoleoni6 votesKat really relies on going in when your entire team is low; that is what makes her scary. Sure, you get those Katarna's that 100-0 your ADC because he is fed AF, but if your mid laner can handle her during laning, and your bot lane has good map awareness, she is pretty healthy to play against.
ZT Xperimentor1 votesYou forgot yasou, ekko & fizz
Crownsy7 votesYas - Easy to counter with an all in meele mid or a person with stun (annie is his nightmare). Yes, he destroys most straight line skill shot mid champs, but that's his niche. His laning phase is weak as long as you pick someone that can bully him.
Ekko - His mana costs keep him in check, and as long as you don't do something stupid, I.E chase him into the Jungle, you can generally force him to burn his ult defensively, not offensively. Zed can do both at the same time.
Fizz - yea I hate this prick, no argument here.
sp4413 votesMy problem with Yasuo isn't that he's overpowered, It's that he's annoying, I make a point of banning him every game because I just don't want to deal with his shit.
Ariel the Cruel6 votesAnd he can press R to undo his in-the-middle-of-the-whole-enemy-team predicament.
This particular scenario is the fault of the enemy team. If I see Zed ulting into the middle of our team, I'm going to have a surprise ready the moment he appears. I still agree that Zed is 12 shades of BS.
Talon agree.
Diana's issue is that she wasn't originally meant to be an assassin. When she gets ahead, she is not a glass cannon like other assassins. She also doesn't play the positioning game that assassins do, she just picks a direction and rips everything in her was a new ass hole. She's actually closer to Riven. I'm not claiming she is or isn't healthy per say. But her assassins status is a design flaw.
Rengar Agree.
Akali has the worst lane phase of the group. Worse than even Kha'Zix right now. And her "out" (fog bubble), isn't very reliable against competent opponents who either sweeper/pink ward it or drop AoE on her head.
Once upon a time, Kha'Zix did the same things Rengar did. Appeared out of nowhere, blew someone up, then ran away at high speed. Thank Morello they nerfed the crap out of that (hint hint, Riot). Though to be fair, I think he has better levers than most assassins between his 2 passives (isolation and bonus damage when not seen).
Only Play Darius2 votesIf Zed R's into the middle of the enemy team and no one CC's him, then your team is at fault.
He even gives you a second to set up right where he is about to reappear
A Miss Fortune21 votesRiot has difficulty creating assassins that are actually healthy because Riot usually breaks their own definition on what an assassin is. "High risk, high reward". Pretty sure most assassins in the game are so mobile that they're some of the safest champions you could ever play like Zed, and the rest don't even need to be fed and can literally kill you in 1/10th of a second.
I think Talon is the closest thing in the game to a healthy assassin but even he has some glaring issues. I don't think a "healthy assassin" is actually possible to exist in a game that revolves around skill. An assassin either will instakill your carry simply because their entire team wasn't protecting them all at once, or they will do nothing of importance and be irrelevant to the team. Assassins in League are fundamentally flawed.
Jhin UItd JFK4 votes[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Chocola,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aujrZwcW,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2016-02-03T09:09:03.184+0000)
What Assassin do you consider healthy then? Talon? If he is ahead of you he will 100-0 you every time you walk into his lane. Akali? Definition of a stat checker. LeBlanc? Same issues as Zed. Diana? Also a stat checker. Rengar and Kha'zix are damn near impossible to balance because they are either trash tier or 100-0 you in under a second as there seems to be no middle ground with them. Like if you are going to say Zed isn't a healthy assassin then what do you consider one that IS healthy since the rest of the roster is much worse than Zed when they are at their prime.
cough 
cough
fractalfantasies34 votesWhat Assassin do you consider healthy then?
Believe it or not
He is high risk, high reward.
Playing a good Shaco isn't about being amazing at combos (most LoL 'assassins' are mobile burst mages), but rather excellent judgement and decision making. That is, he feels like an assassin, cunning and sneaky.
He can take out one target in an instant, but struggles when locked down by a team
Punishes carelessness on the other team and is punished by his own carelessness.
His Q is fair since he can either use it to go in for a kill or escape a dangerous situation, not both
MakersF3 votesKata. Needs to go melee, channel to do dmg, if she doesn't kill she dies.
She is a pubstomper, but she's balanced as an idea. If only people knew how to use their cc
Jeanne fan club1 votesI thought zed was perfectly balanced before his w buffs, I don't think enough time went into observing his interactions with the new items and masteries.
Handin Out Naps3 votes4th lowest winrate in game. Felt clunky as all hell. "I think Zed was balanced :DDD!" -Boards
Jeanne fan club2 votesI don't think you understand what winrates truly mean, sure they can point out who is overpowered but there is a level of artificiality there. Lee sins winrate is like, 47%, but the players who are amazing at him sport 55%+ winrates on him. The reason the avg is so low is because most people absolutely suck at him. (these % were the last i saw before champion.gg went down.)
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI want to see this "4th lowest winrate" in game. Do you have a source?
Cause right now, Nunu Top has the 4th lowest winrate in the game. I dont ever remember Zed being as bad as Nunu Top.
Handin Out Naps1 votesPatch 5.22 I believe. The first patch of preseason, when Riot decided to introduce a "bugfix" to Zed's basic combo that made it feel like you were playing with 200 ping. His winrate plummeted from 48% to 42% and he was litteral G a r b a g e.
http://champion.gg/champion/zed Scroll down to winrate% by patch and look at 5.22. The fact that anyone can say "I think Zed was balanced before his buffs :D", just shows how much they despise Zed as a champion to think nearly unplayable = balanced.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesIs that the patch that made it not possible to Q-W to get the extended range of Q? You had to W-Q. Which made it similar other "extended range" skillshots, like Lulu's E-Q combo.
And i thought you meant recently, because 5.22 isnt really relevant. Zed didnt become overbearing during S5. It was during S6 with the entire item overhaul that catered toward AD champions and nerfed all the AP champions. After all, you did reply with to a post that stated "I don't think enough time went into observing his interactions with the new items and masteries"
Handin Out Naps1 votesNo Q-W was way before and was removed before.
I thought zed was perfectly balanced before his w buffs
This is the reason Zed was buffed, he was shit tier and received buffs. The guy is saying he was balanced before the buffs which is 100% wrong he was completely garbage before his buffs made him strong again. Zeds problem was he was extremely clunky, item interactions and masteries dont fix clunky and impossible to play. Do you get what I am saying now?
5.22 is preseason btw, its not too far off. The guy is saying Zed was balanced while he had the 4th lowest winrate in the game.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesOK - youve done this a couple times now. Winrate doesnt mean "balanced" or not. Lets get that clear. So you can keep saying he has a low winrate, but that doesnt mean he was balanced. Are you telling me that Illaoi is balanced? Tahm is balanced? Ryze? Rengar? Lee Sin? Because all these champions dont have a good winrate. So following your logic, that means we need Illaoi, Tahm, Ryze, Rengar, and Lee Sin buffed, right?
Secondly, patches with changes arent always indicative of a champions power. For example, the previous (pre 5.22) build was wildly different and a lot weaker, but I'm sure people on 5.22 still build those items. Similarly. Zed's winrate skyrocketed from 5.23 (when the shadow changes were implemented) to 5.24 (no significant changes). What explains that? Maybe people getting used to the massive amount of changes that were made?
He was buffed in 5.23, and his winrate is steadily rising, suggesting that people are figuring out his power, and is one of the most picked mids. I still stand by the other guy's point - they should have waited to see Zed's interactions with items before buffing him.
Handin Out Naps1 votesIt takes 1 game before and during 5.22 playing Zed to realize how atrociously unplayable Zed was. Pro players even said "riot killed Zed". His winrate rose because he received buffs to his w that made him feel less clunky and more playable. I feel like you have an inability to read or something. You don't go from an average 48% winrate to a 42% winrate in a day, that isn't normal. That means the champion just got fucking destroyed by a nerf. Is that actually hard to understand?
Zed pre-buff: 42% winrate Tahm :48% Rengar: 45% (receiving buffs) Lee Sin: 45% (he is just a hard champion, it takes like 300+ games to actually be decent with him, and if you aren't good with him you are dead weight.) Ryze: 48%
Is this shit actually hard for you to understand or are you just being stubborn?
Tahm and Ryze are both their own 50 shades of bullshit but their average games for playerbase is extremely low, a sign of most of the ppl playing them barelly playing them at all. Once their players get a couple games their winrates become absolute bullshit (especially Ryze). Zeds average games for playerbase is in the 100s and was even with his ridiculously high playrate, that shows a very dedicated playerbase, and this is the explanation for low winrates on bullshit champs. Zed has always had a very high average games for playerbase even with his garbage winrate, FACE IT Zed was trash and needed buffs.
Zed's build litterally hasn't changed by anything but not getting last whisper early. You still buy what you see fit. Youmuus/Cleaver/Maw/Bork/Hydra/Mercurial/LastWhisper/Bloodthirster its always been situational and hasn't changed in the slightest. The only changes that were made is that his shadow wasn't garbage anymore and people got used to the new feel on his shadow.
I will stand by my point, he was fucking gutted and needed buffs, he was not in a good position at all. Anyone who says
I thought zed was perfectly balanced before his w buffs
is actually just dumb.
Take a look at the winrates yourself and tell me they are anything close to the shit Zed was. Anyone at that low of a winrate needs buffs, period. http://champion.gg/champion/TahmKench/Top http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Rengar/Jungle http://champion.gg/champion/Ryze/Top
and for the last time Items, Masteries, etc. DOES NOT FIX FEELING EXTREMELY CLUNKY TO PLAY.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesDamn you get mad over nothing really fast. You apparently dont get my point then fly off the handle with insults.
"You don't go from an average 48% winrate to a 42% winrate in a day".
Yes, actually, you do. For the same exact reason that in 5.23 (buff patch) and 5.24 (no significant changes) his winrate rose by another 4.5%. Winrates change. Thats just the reality of most champions. Udyr's has been rising with no changes since the introduction of the preseason. Same with Pantheon.
So before going on a rant, how about think for a second? Insulting me doesnt help your case. It just makes you look like a crybaby who cant accept when other people have different views.
Handin Out Naps1 votesI'm not actually mad, just more or less annoyed that someone can actually think Zed was "ok". Anyway the fact that you focused on one tiny little part of my arguement and ignored all the other parts proving you wrong shows you have nothing else to say. I think it's best if you just give up now if you are going to pull the "focus on one tiny part of his arguement when the other 4 paragraphs are 100% right" strat. Have a nice bud, arguing any further would just lead to me repeating the same shit over and over till you finally understood.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesfine. Ill respond to all of them. I doubt youll read it, so i tend to only put one point in my responses, but OK. Fine.
First of all - you say that I dont respond to arguments? What about you? Illaoi just disappeared, huh? And plus - you still havent given a good explanation on why Zed's winrate for one patch matters. Ive given you a couple examples why its a good idea to wait - because champions like Udyr and Pantheon shot up in winrate with no buffs.
Incarnation is the only pro player ive heard complain about Zed. And it was about the delay on his Ult, which was done a very long time ago. This was NOT when his winrate dropped on patch 5.22. It was back in patch 5.9. SO unless you want to bring up Zed's stats back then, its utterly irrelevant.
I was referring to Tahm support and Ryze Mid for the stats, who have an extremely low winrates, and have had low winrates. Lee Sin has. and has always had a low winrate. You really want buffs for those champs? Some of the most broken (Ahm. not OP, but broken) kits. "Anyone that low needs a buff"? So we need Illaoi and Lee Sin buffs, right? And Jhin, Veigar, Viktor, Syndra, Vlad, Olaf, Gnar, Lissandra, Yasuo, Tryn too, right. After all, if Zed cant manage to spend one patch with a lowwinate, he needs to be buffed once that shoots him back to over 50%, so we need some Lissandra buffs since she counters Zed so hard yet has a low winrate.
And Zed's games played doesnt necessarily mean that Zed has a dedicated playerbase. Actually, in light of his pickrate, id say he is just played by freelo abusers. Heimerdinger had a dedicated playerbase - one of the lowest picks, but managed an amazing winrate. Having a good winrate and a high pickrate just means he is strong. You dont need to be amazing mechanically when you can Ult-E-Q-(Ghostblade)-Auto a few times and be able to kill tanks.
And its hard to take someone seriously thinking that Zed needed buffs when their name is "UrZedM8". Can you link me to a post where you ever thought Zed was weak? Because I think youre a bit biased in this discussion and refuse to open your mind.
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI spent all that time responding to your post because you stated I didnt, and thats your response?
This is why i dont respond with long posts. I counter all your points and you say "lets ignore everything. im right"
ChaoticPinecone1 votesI spent all that time responding to your post because you stated I didnt, and thats your response?
This is why i dont respond with long posts. I counter all your points and you basically ignore it. And your explanation is basically, "im right because im right"
Kaisa is Hot3 votesZed is such a pain in the ass to balance and he's absolutely NOT the posterchild for a 'healthy assassin'
He's not supposed to be an easy champ to play but god damn if his laning phase isn't a stroll through a god damn meadow considering just about every other midlaner has actual problems that they need to work around
His number one problem is when his opponent takes 6 years to build zhonya's or sacrifices every other necessary stat to build QSS.
Boo fucking hoo.
I honestly think the Assassin that has the most shitty/difficult laning phase out of all is Akali, and this isn't biased cause I main her. Ive spammed pretty much every assassin in this game at some point, and in no way do any of them get shut down so hard by ranged champs like Akali does . Kat has long rangen poke that actually does damage without procing it, and same with Talon although he has some bad mana issues.
Carpe Victoria2 votesHis number one problem is when his opponent takes 6 years to build zhonya's or sacrifices every other necessary stat to build QSS.
The grossest thing is you rush a defensive item, he still gets to rush all damage. QSS might not even save you.
DarthSpectrum23 votesThe only Zed nerfs I could recall was because of his split pushing power.
His Death Mark was nerfed to have a 1 second delay, but realistically it only comes into play if W is on cool down when Zed ults. Otherwise, if Zed needs an instant escape, he can always throw out his W first, press R, then switch back to W.
Zed's biggest nerf last year was to his AS. It is currently around ~2/3 of his original value at level 18 because he was too strong at taking towers as a split pusher.
For a long time he remained a mediocre pick. He is only popular now because he is one of the few AD assassins who can proc TL from range. Even with his mobility, he had ~45% win rate before TL was introduced.
If anything, Zed needs a damage nerf, which is why Riot reduced his Death Mark damage scaling.
Hayaishi212 votesZed is a bit too strong atm, probably because of thunderlords.
Spoofghoul7 votesit isnt jsut zed riot has litterally made a 180 on everything they did since season 3
back to 20 picks in an assassin meta just where we started 2 seasons back a meta most players did not like so it got changed then in season 5 they got damn near close to a good balanced game state But we can't have that now can we . . .
Crownsy3 votesit isnt jsut zed riot has litterally made a 180 on everything they did since season 3
back to 20 picks in an assassin meta just where we started 2 seasons back a meta most players did not like so it got changed then in season 5 they got damn near close to a good balanced game state But we can't have that now can we . . .
nope, because it was "too boring" for the lcs veiwers, because the tank meta was more about objective control, not #LC$BIGPLAY$
ironically, so far the whole "lets make everyone a snowball king, and make winning or losing early game team fights super important!" has lead to the most boring LCS i've seen so far, because players are even MORE terrified of losing an early team fight, since it's so snowbally now. Teams don't want those early fights, because they know how much losing them and giving a assassin/adc 2 kills will hurt them.
Games now are pretty much even worse farm fests, and with the lack of vision, everyone plays super, super safe. LCS right now is "who after 6 will hit the first successful gank mid or bot, and then play safe as hell and farm to protect that snowball?"
I mean, teams are now pretty much as a rule conceding bot and top towers just to get a safer lanning phase/ early trade on global gold. That's always been a strategy teams do of course, but now it's pretty much just expected. For all the "strategy" involved, the pro games should just start with a tower down in each lane and the teams awarded the global gold.
Xonra3 votesRiot is the one who finds it boring I happen to enjoy strategic games a lot.
The current games have devolved into watching two teams stall and farm for 20 minutes then go ham for 5. Its pretty boring now to watch even Korean LoL as even the casters complain about it.
SnugglePuggle947 votesPSA to all you that say Zed has counter play by TWO ITEMS:
In order for us AP champions to even be able to counter Zed at all, we need to get 3500 GOLD. Which is ridiculous because by the time Zed has hit level 6, he has enough money for a Hexdrinker or more, and if he succeeded in pushing us out of lane and out of farm, some of us wouldn't even have enough for a Seeker's. On top of that, we have to sacrifice our first item for defensive stats that are way to expensive along with the armor on it being nerfed, instead of getting a mana regen item which we greatly need or our first damage item.
Get my point? Now stop using that has a way to "counter" because that doesn't happen to mid to late game.
Alüe2 votesThrow in our lack of mobility and we sit on a silver platter for him. It's already upsetting enough all he has to do is get hexdrinker or a qss to counter any form of cc we would be able to use on him....
Papa Slothy2 votesSolution would be to nerf thunderlords and maybe modify yoummuus so the armor pen didn't make everyone cry but he isn't OP just overly strong compared to other mids
NichtHurz25 votesMy main problem with Zed is that he can be played way too safe during laning phase. Other melee assassins have to calculate the risk for almost every single minion they want to lasthit. Zed's got his Q and if his Q isn't enough or even that is too risky to use he can use his shadow so he can get cs with his E as well or just clear the wave pretty damn fast. Besides that his shadow is an incredible zoning tool, especially since most mid laners he faces don't too good defensive stats/abilities or health sustain. He just farms to the point where he thinks he can kill you and then goes in while still being pretty safe for his engages duration.
If Zed was nerfed in a way so he would have to commit to lasthitting or staying healthy in the early game I wouldn't even mind if he'd have a stronger powerspike after that, but right now it's hilarious how safe he can be played while still not falling behind and forcing lots of mid-laners into rushing Zhonya's.
It's not even that I've got massive problems with Zed, but that's more because of the champions I play and not because of Zed himself.
More risk, more reward.
Only Play Darius5 votesI mean most mages play it safe during laning phase too. Look at 
who just farms under tower/off screen all game until her jungler ganks. And unlike Zed she has strong teamfight, insane late game, and can actually do something if she doesn't have kills.
NichtHurz11 votesThat's right, but if she just misses her Q in a critical situation she'll be most likely dead against more or less mobile champs or champs with a strong lockdown. Zed is vulnerable to such lockdowns too, but he has the ability to assassinate most mages and immobile squishies extremely fast and even if he makes a horrendous mistake or misses most of his damage he can still get out of the fight in almost any situation. Champs like Fizz can do the same, but their area of action is way smaller and if he fails to kill his target there's still a good chance to get him. Zed has a shadow out of your towers range, follows and attacks you until you reach your second turret and he'll still get out most of the time. Dunno...it just feels kinda wrong in many situations.
ereiserengo3 votesThe point is that zed main assassination tool (ultimate) is super easy to counter. Qss or zonia and you make his ultimate useless on you. I think this is the tradeoff for his "easier" lane phase.
NichtHurz3 votesYeah you're right about that. For me Zed just doesn't feel right and I actually hate it to be kinda forced to buy Zhonya's. No idea what could theoretically be done about Zed to take away this feeling from.^^ Guess I'll just stay with picking Anivia into Zed and insta destroy him once he gets out of his ult. 
Aezanthya2 votesThe point is that zed main assassination tool (ultimate) is super easy to counter. Qss or zonia and you make his ultimate useless on you. I think this is the tradeoff for his "easier" lane phase.
yeah right, forcing someone to buy such an expensive item... preventing them from getting mana regen when zed does not have any ressource (lol energy) and can just build a cheap as fuck hexdrinker to make him even safer than he already is, is such downside to zed.
It's not like, other champs gets "countered" by zhonya/qss amirite.
