Udyr Stance Upgrades

ChasmOfTrossm·Aug 29, 2017·39 votes·1,999 views

What do you guys think of the idea of limiting Udyr's skill points to 16, effectively allowing him to max all of his stances fully instead of constantly leaving one lacking, and then relegating lvl17 and lvl18 to upgrade slots, that allow Udyr to improve two of his four stances by granting them additional effects.

For example: bear stance grants increased tenacity that scales off a percentage of his bonus movement speed and lasts for the activation period but does not maintain itself as a persistent effect. This way he doesn't get fucked so hard when trying to chase someone down and can actually get to them, but will still be prone to cc effects once he's actually gotten to where he needs to be.

I am looking for more ideas for possible stance upgrades since I feel a full scale rework on Udyr might not be the right way to go and could end disastrously due to the rather straight forward nature of the champion.

13 Comments

Teridax68Aug 29, 20178 votes

I like the idea of Udyr specializing into a particular stance, in addition to maxing out his basic effects. I'm personally of the opinion that Udyr does need a larger rework eventually, not to make him more complicated, but to give him more windows of extreme power, and some weakness after that, as he currently is balanced around essentially being at full power 100% of the time. As champions like Jayce, Nidalee, Ryze, etc. have shown, champions with no major highs and lows to their power expression tend to not feel very interactive, and are exceptionally difficult to balance, which is why the idea of super-specializing into a single stance for an added bonus could help him produce a majorly impactful effect once in a while.

To make this power a little less accessible, and to emphasize Udyr's jungling theme, what would you say to keeping Udyr's 5 ranks per ability, and instead of making his last two points work as upgrade slots, he'd instead get a bonus rank-up point the first time he clears the Baron/Herald pit and the Drake each, and maxing out his skills would get him to upgrade a single stance? That way, he'd have to work a little harder to get that special bonus, and making it a singular choice would also allow it to be even stronger on its own, to the point of defining his whole playstyle from then on.

The SoulforgedAug 30, 20172 votes

I don't like the idea of limiting Udyr by objectives. Doing something like that'd feel too gimmicky. I'd rather he just get an upgrade point or something when he levels up at one of the ultimate gaining levels (6, 11, 16) similar to kha.

Teridax68Aug 30, 20171 votes

I don't think the idea is so much to limit Udyr by objectives as it is to bank even more on his current ability to clear jungle camps really quickly. Rushing an early Drake, for example, could give Udyr a true ability-based power spike, which he generally lacks past level 3, and the same could be achieved in the mid-game by going for the Rift Herald. For sure, a mechanic like that would have its drawbacks by not working so well on top lane Udyr, who'd have to roam to get a Drake, and it would feel shitty to lose out on so much power when the enemy's ahead and in control of either jungle camp, so it definitely risks generating some frustrating gameplay down the line.

However, I do think it could still be a means of adding an additional layer of strategy to Udyr, his team and the enemy by emphasizing objective control at different times, and so for not that big a cost in complexity (in fact, it could allow his current stat steroid to be funneled into his Q and E, which provide very similar stat bonuses, turned into base stat increases, or simply removed in favor of more visible power). By contrast, a gimmick is generally something that looks very flashy and takes up a lot of attention, but is very shallow in practice: only testing could really determine the actual depth to such a mechanic, but in terms of information overhead, it doesn't really have the same kind of minigame aspect as Fiora or Skarner's passives, nor does it bank as hard on a single feature as, say, Shyvana's dragon-based bonus resists.

With that said, I also like the simplicity and consistency of just giving Udyr bonus rank-up points at levels 6 and 11, and a major upgrade at level 16, as you suggested, which would simulate the power spike of an ult on a champion with only basic abilities. My main concern is that this kind of mechanic falls into power without gameplay, as Udyr wouldn't really have to do anything to get those bonuses besides level up like normal, but that could still be fine if Udyr were made to have more opportunities for gameplay and interaction elsewhere on his kit.

xelakerAug 30, 20173 votes

dude just needs a rework

Ithil SnekAug 30, 20172 votes

What about making him the only champion able to go up to level 20?

KloqdqAug 30, 20172 votes

I do like the idea of Udyr specializing his kit more to a game kind of like what Kayn does. It makes for a very different game play style that is capable of being super flexible! I think he would need to be able to spec. sooner though since most games don't get to level 18 though.

CalabokAug 30, 20171 votes

I think they should nerf him.

underscores222Aug 30, 20171 votes

I like the uniqueness of his ability path - having no ultimate and the ability to determine which stances he maxes when technically provides an interesting amount of flexibility in his leveling pattern. I say technically because his ability levels don't feel different enough, in most cases, to be impactful.

I don't know that giving him a psudo-ult, similar in effect to Kha'zix morphs or Victor staff upgrades - different system, same results - is the best way to go about it. Leaving it until the last two levels means he might never reach those potentially major powerspikes. Making them his tier 6 bonus means he can get one as early as level 10, but starts to feel more like an ultimate that you must grab as soon as you are able.

I agree that upgrading his stances should do more in some manner, but how much and in what direction is the question - what leaves him with downtime when he can just switch to another stance? His entire character is designed around stance-jumping.

SanKakUAug 30, 20171 votes

Udyr's pretty good. Yeah, would hate to see them Sejuani him.

OyddAWqJ5rAug 30, 20171 votes

That's actually an amazing idea. Instead of ultimate ranks at levels 6/11/16 since he doesn't have an ult, instead just give him a sort of "ultimate point" to put in any rank 5 stance to upgrade it.

You'd know which one he upgraded cuz that's the skill he was already maxing. Would be nifty anyway.

ChasmOfTrossmAug 30, 20171 votes

Due to Udyr not being a full-on carry champion in the traditional sense like Kha'Zix whose only real purpose is to kill people, and likewise that is Victor's main job, I feel its fitting to limit the the skill points to just two stances, not even three. The way I see it is that if Udyr decides to throw his first bonus point into phoenix, it should lock out tiger stance and vice versa, since having damage slots be boosted extreme power might be overbearing, and it forces Udyr to make a decision for what he truly wants to become by late game. I would do the same with bear and turtle stance, choosing either the ability to become just a bit tankier and more valuable as a self-sustaining bruiser that keeps the other carries at bay, or becoming an offensive powerhouse that simply doesn't allow you to get anywhere near his carries, but can still rush back in and stun someone without having to worry about putting himself in too much danger.

If he keeps the five ranks, then one his abilities still gets left behind. The reason I prefer 16 skill points to 20, is because with 16 you can adjust the power level by having it scale to mid-game which is where Udyr's power as a champion really starts to shine through anyhow. By late game his damage should fall off slightly, and if he is doing well by split-pushing and showing up to teamfights, he will inevitably gain another spike in power to compensate for the damage he lost. It'll also give the enemy incentive to try and keep tabs on him, which is exactly what an Udyr player wants, people chasing them across the map while the rest of his team takes objectives or they get caught out because they're too busy trying to kill the wild-man.

PrimaquariusAug 30, 20171 votes

I feel like 5-4-4-5 is a safe bet considering he needs the damage output

nGioAug 30, 20171 votes

I'm okay with any changes, as long as they don't strip away his damage from every place possible, give him tons of cc, and make him a support that jungles like what some of my other jungle mains fell victim to.

I picture it going more like "Bear stance still stuns. Switching to Turtle Stance now knocks up the first target hit. Tiger stance places you behind the first target hit. Phoenix stance does all of the effects at once, but looks way flashier. Each stance also deals 10 magic damage on hit, scales like shit, and Udyr's auto attacks heal enemies on hit, so that the ADC always gets the kill".