I like how people be saying Marksmen are weak since the assassin update

L0ve Is Blue·Dec 30, 2016·42 votes·2,622 views

Yet have you played ONE game without an ADC since the update? Yeah that's what I thought. And by the way the ONLY assassins with more than 50% of winrate are . All the rest are under 50%.

Meanwhile,

has a 30% pick rate and 52.5% winrate is still a super popular jungle pick who is considered to be a ''hard champion'' wins more than 50% of her games with a pickrate of 25% exists Is the best pick for midlane

ADCs will NEVER be outclassed by any other class because they are simply the best champion type in the game.

74 Comments

dominusxDec 30, 201624 votes

diana isnt an assasin she is a diver. so you are left with 2 champs.

L0ve Is BlueDec 30, 201610 votes

Well let's be honest most of the time she just jumps on someone and instakill them. She is mostly played as an assassin and doesn't build any defensive items

Sire HippingtonDec 30, 201622 votes

Well let's be honest most of the time she just jumps on someone and** instakill them**.

Just another proof that she isn't an assasin. Assasins don't do that anymore.

L0ve Is BlueDec 30, 20162 votes

Tru XD

Shaco Rengar Khazix

dominusxDec 30, 20162 votes

rengar only oneshots you if he is full ad. if he is full ad you can oneshot him aswell. Kha is kfn trash stop bringing him up. Shaco is getting gutted anyway

doublelift fgDec 31, 20161 votes

dunno why this is downvoted lmfao

but shaco is still strong, with a bruiser build. But he doesn't assassinate people anymore

dominusxDec 31, 20161 votes

cause people are garbage at the game lmfao

RalanrDec 30, 20167 votes

That's because she either has enough burst to kill them or dies. An assassin usually has an escape method ready for when it fails.

SithesisLordDec 30, 20164 votes

And has no escapes. She goes in and stays there until either she's dead, or the one she jumped on is dead.

L0ve Is BlueDec 30, 20161 votes

Rengar Talon have no escape too

RalanrDec 30, 201611 votes

Rengar's cleanse and CC immunity on his empowered W. Talon has his parkour.

Those are their escapes.

hhaavviikkDec 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

diana isnt an assasin she is a diver. so you are left with 2 champs.

I don't think I have ever seen a diana not be played as an assassin

dominusxDec 30, 20167 votes

that doesnt mean she isnt a diver..

RalanrDec 30, 20165 votes

It's annoying right? Seeing terms messed up like that?

NightmareAmazoXDec 30, 20163 votes

Classes are messed up right now.

GrReaper96Dec 31, 20161 votes

Not to mention Dianas winrate is 50.03 so i doubt it counts as more than 50

RebonackDec 30, 201621 votes

First thing to point out here is that the talk isn't about the Marksmen champion archetype being weak. Corki is out of control mid-lane and has been for a while now. It's about the Farmer lane position being weak.

The general consensus among high Elo players right now is that, as a class, the Farmer role is weak due to the level of pressure on bottom lane and the higher XP that Junglers get. The higher pressure means bottom lane champs need to back earlier to avoid getting killed, averaging 800ish gold available for purchase. Since they typically can't afford a BF sword on their first return, it leaves them at a hefty disadvantage since they're sitting on a pile of gold waiting to be useful until their second back, barring the bottom-lane clown fiesta going drastically in their favor rather than just wasting Summoners (keep in mind, death count in high Elo games tends to be much lower).

The higher Jungler XP means that the Farmer and the Support are the only champions not getting solo XP. Being at least one to two levels behind everyone else is a pretty significant disadvantage that takes a pretty major gold investment to overcome which is, again, difficult to safely acquire due to aforementioned bottom lane clown fiesta.

Even if bottom lane Mages or Bruisers or whatever became a popular pick bottom lane rather than Marksmen they would still be weak in the Farmer role because of the exact same reasons mentioned above (high pressure and level disadvantage vs everyone). However, they would at least have the advantage of being able to pick up a Longsword or a Amp Tome on their first back.

RalanrDec 30, 20165 votes

This was very informative.

So I suppose we should nerf the jungle to weaken the impact of early game junglers?

NightmareAmazoXDec 30, 20165 votes

They should buff the bot lane tower to stop the 5 man gangbang at bot lane,Whichever team gangbangs the opposing bot laners win the game and make the enemy surrender @ 20 when you are 8 minutes into the game.

RebonackDec 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This was very informative.

So I suppose we should nerf the jungle to weaken the impact of early game junglers?

That would be one way to do it.

If the Jungler was getting XP more or less on par with the duo lanes as they were in previous seasons the bottom lane wouldn't be the free food it is right now and the massive levels of pressure would drop.

Personally, I would rather see bottom lane XP improved so that there's no level deficiency between roles. More so than any other change to the game, that would open up the duo lane to new archetype combinations. And I still think 'Farmer' and 'Support' are more descriptive names for the lane positions, especially if we're going to try to make things other than Marksmen viable down there.

Earl EulrichDec 31, 20161 votes

or we nerf the "early game junglers" because for at least 3 seasons there´s only 4 junglers viable in the S tier and there´s no diversity at all, jungle is stall as f°°°. We really need the heart of gold support junglers back :/

HeeroTXDec 30, 20162 votes

Since "adc/marksmen" triggers so many people, this is a great explanation. ty

TeCoolMageDec 30, 20161 votes

well actually different classes can respond to and handle different amounts of pressure on their lane. Mobile bruisers or long range poke mages in particular can escape from ganks more easily than an ADC.

AdriqnoheeDec 30, 20161 votes

But the thing here is not that ADCs are dying to ganks, its that they are forced to either run away from the lane or die to said gank, and since they aren't there to defend the tower, the same 4 people who kicked them out of the lane will now take said tower and get an even bigger reward in the form of first tower gold, there is no class in the game that can safely handle a 4 vs 2 at 8 minutes.

TeCoolMageDec 31, 20161 votes

Actually I can handle a 4v2 (or 4v1) at 8 minutes as anivia under tower against a sustain or low mobility and range comp. But that relies on me hitting 6 so it doesn't apply in a solo lane

However, poke champions or early waveclear like vel'koz can actually out push something like Vayne + Lee Sin + Soraka + Ahri with extreme mana efficiency.

And while it's risky, it's better than the 0 chance a normal ADC has, the long range waveclear, anti-seige and anti-engage mages have a good chance of holding back a 4 man push if none of them are also dedicated waveclear.

Earl EulrichDec 31, 20161 votes

if that were true we´d see a lot more early to midgame marksmen played (e.g. ez, draven, corki bot....) - instead vayne and twitch are the outliners currently, both not known for their strong lane - but for what they will do with the game once farmed up.

What is true is that you are dependant on your team to not fuck up and allow you to get to 2-3 items before the snowball is out of control, but that sort of had always been the case - just that before Riot went to a rampage against strategy and vision most players had enough of an understanding about how to play the makro game instead of just relaying on snowballs and prayers to close out a game - hence most games get thrown way too fast nowadays in comparision to former seasons (2-~5).

abdelhamid9Dec 30, 201618 votes

Alright im the first one to jump in and defend assassins, however right there you are just spilling bullshit. First of all graves and corki are marksman not adc, adc mains dont give a shit about marksman being played in another role. Second corki isnt the best mid, thats bullshit, Ryze Syndra lux ahri orianna are one legit tier above. Third and more important, adc complain about lack of agency in the early game and having to deal with 2v5, sometimes they are on the 5 and have a smooth game, however other tiems they get asspounded adn they cant do jackshit about it. Using winrates to justify they are fine is dumb as fuck sure those 3 have high winrates, but at the same time that may be fruit of how trash draven lucian and kalista (lane bullies) are and the fact that graves one of the biggest bullies in his current reworked state doesnt bully jack shit, At the same time the whole they will never be outclassed its bullshit, they have been outclassed for a long time , however when you add in the support factor adc become that strong. So please, for the love of god, stop making posts with such retarded and cheap arguments ,its tilting beyond belief

Karn BishopDec 30, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Alright im the first one to jump in and defend assassins, however right there you are just spilling bullshit. First of all graves and corki are marksman not adc, adc mains dont give a shit about marksman being played in another role.

lets break down adc into its full word which is Attack Damage Carry, if you can do these things you are an ADC regardless of what lane your champion is located in. Also marksmen are people who specialize in shooting riffles or pistols and corki and graves use a Gatling gun and shotgun so again your wrong.

I have also never seen you comment first and often times at all in assassin threads so i doubt that initial statement is true either.

Pentium2Dec 30, 20161 votes

so again your wrong

I'm not a native speaker, neither a grammar nazi, but I have no idea why americans started using their own language incorrectly.

Is it slang or what?

Only one thing is more annoying than theese obvious mistakes and that's when someone is talking in double (triple,quadriple,....) negative, well technically double negative exists in other languages, but not in english, if someone would use passive tense to speak my native, while being a native speaker I would assume he has some serious problems as passive tense does not exist in my native, it can be understood, but sounds retarded.

Seems like I went a bit more off topic, than I wanted.

So please use your language correctly.

Karn BishopDec 30, 20161 votes

it can be used both ways it is just far more common to be used as a possessive, also languages change all the time and this is especially true of english which has many rules and exceptions to said rules while at the same time being filled with logical contradictions and while i wont say it is the hardest language to learn because that is subjective i will say it is the most challenging even for and especially for native speakers to master.

think i am full of it? visit a northern state like Wisconsin, Minnesota then visit the deep south followed by a trip to New York and even Seattle, what you will see is that english is used and applied in a different way in these areas including both spoken and written.

Also double negatives do exist in English however most people do not like using them due to the confusion they can cause, no actual rules exist disallowing the usage of double negatives in english.

I am aware that using your in that way is generally seen as wrong when practicing english however in my region many people use it in a way that would be considered wrong in other areas.

One more thing to add is that i do make spelling mistakes and that is true of anyone who uses english even famed wordsmiths and founders of the grammer nazi tradition.

Glory ln DeathDec 30, 20162 votes

Just going to say - while the mistake didn't need to be pointed out, it can't be used both ways. "You're" is the correct word in that situation.

As a spoken language, English does grow and evolve due to slang and vernacular in different regions. However, it is moderately static as a written language due to the MLA. While a phrase or saying can mean different things in different regions (American "cookie" vs UK "cracker"), grammar is consistent everywhere. "You're" is always a contraction meaning "you are" and "your" is always a 2nd person possessive adjective. The two are not interchangeable, no matter where you go.

TurquoiseYoshiDec 30, 20169 votes

ADC is a term used to describe the bot lane farming position, not the general archetype of the Marksman class. Is that confusing and backwards? Yes, that's why Riot lists it as "Bot" in the draft queue. Marksman is the actual term used to describe these champs on a class level, and while ADC was pretty much synonymous with it before the marksman rework, the rework put many marksmen in different lanes (Corki, Graves, Quinn), and it's better to separate the terms now.

LovelleDec 30, 20166 votes

I like how people like to throw ALL adcs/marksmen together when making an argument against them, as if a hierarchy doesn't exist for the class and they're all of equal power.

vOmvbrawfUDec 30, 20165 votes

A) People aren't saying that. In fact, most of the posts are complaining about how weak assassins are and how strong marksmen are. But you know that. You're just circle jerking the gravy train while it's rolling.

B) I think you need to read this, because you're completely uninformed on what playrate means. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Xp8smhPI-psa-playrate-has-nothing-to-do-with-experience-on-a-champion

Zero Skill TankDec 30, 20164 votes

ADCs will NEVER be outclassed by any other class because they are simply the best champion type in the game.

Marksman being allowed to be the strongest is completely OK, as marksman, like no other class, promote teamwork and objective-oriented playstyle. Also, due to their low burst damage and crowd control, they are the only class able to retain healthy gameplay in 2v2 lane.

Assassins do neither of that. Instead, they promote solo action, non-interactive gameplay, passivity and unhealthy snowball patterns. It is obvious that they need to be pushed into situational nieches.

inb4 you accuse me of bias, I barely ever play marksman.

Sahn UzalDec 30, 201613 votes

Also, due to their low burst

Twitch Caitlyn Lucian Vayne What do you mean low burst?

Zero Skill TankDec 30, 20165 votes

Their burst is only high compared to other marksmen. It is still low compared to any other damage dealing class, at least until late in the game - at which point it has no meaning for health of 2v2 lane.

dominusxDec 30, 20164 votes

remind me how many champs can do 2.5k dmg in seconds consistently with no cd or mana problems

OdinakosDec 30, 20161 votes

Remind me how many items and gold they have to accumulate in order to do that? Now tell me how many champs with half the gold can do 2.5k dmg in the same timeframe by just wasting cd and mana.

Why people always complain about 6 items adcs and not mentioning that they require 4 (boots, IE PD LW) to just function in teamfights in the same lvl as the other lanes (excluding support ofc)?

Sahn UzalDec 30, 20167 votes

Don't tell me Lucian doesn't have high burst early on, and cait's Trap > Headshot > E > Headshot > Q combo is not a fun thing to look at early on either.

Twitch and Vayne need atleast one item to be bursty, sure, but holy fuck do they burst once they do get items.

Yaśuo MainDec 30, 20162 votes

burst is very high damagee in a short amount of time bro, Twitch Ult with IE and Vayne Ult with shiv and IE

well, cait and lucian are debatable

DehornDec 30, 20162 votes

as in, without 3+ items, theyre not bursting anything. while most assassins can one shot you lvl 6 with 1.

Sahn UzalDec 30, 20165 votes

I repeat Caitlyn Lucian

DehornDec 30, 20162 votes

lvl 6, same farm, who wins?

Caitlyn Lucian vs Khazix ? Caitlyn Lucian vs Rengar ? Caitlyn Lucian vs Fizz ? Caitlyn Lucian vs Leblanc ?

Sahn UzalDec 30, 20162 votes

if they would be outbursting Assassins at level 6 with 1 item, they would never even get through the banphase. For the same reason assassins would never get through the banphase if they had the sustain damage and safety of Cait and Lucian.

That does not mean they do not have high burst.

DehornDec 30, 20161 votes

just because they dont have high burst does not mean they do not have high burst? ok.

i think you were just trying to nitpick op's point. most champs can "burst" once they get a few damage items. op was specifically talking about 2v2 lanes. so, in what game are you still 2v2 laning when by the time adcs have 2-3 items?

Sahn UzalDec 30, 20164 votes

''I do not have more burst than champions in a subclass who provide little other than burst, therefore I do not have burst at all''

IncarcerationDec 30, 20163 votes

Wait, wut? Corki is strong?

TurquoiseYoshiDec 30, 20164 votes

Corki mid has a really high win rate on champion.gg right now, although that may be one of those skewed mid picks that gets a really high win rate from a small player base, like Galio from most of S5.