Corelation betwean champion level and division.. and proof that MMR/ELO can't work properly with LOL

Neosphoros·Dec 30, 2018·2 votes·3,526 views

In theory champion level going up when we are getting more experienced - it make sense.

Achieving higher levels of our champions requires from us simply - much more efford.

To achieve lvl 7 it is even not enough to have good KDA score, but the player need to have few other factors on good level - like: vision points, CC, etc.

By trying to based only on those information it is easy to ask how it is possible that system choosing us to play together with players less experienced than we are (with champions level lower than our).

It suggest that or CHampion Level Achievment System - make no sense, or ELO/MMR system is broken, becouse:

if Champion Level Achievment System (and becouse of that - our champions lvl) does not proof about our skill so it denies geting experience - which is universal paradigm (universal truth)
If we (as a players) with lvl 7 (of ours champions) maight be selected to the same team with less experienced players it suggest that - system is broken, in other way it suggest that betwean player with lvl 7 and lvl 1 there is no - experience difference - which it is even sound STUPID

and MOST IMPORTANT PROOF that system like MMR/ELO can not work properly with teamgame with so many variables (different lanes, 140 different champions):

Let we try to imagine a one-lane-player (player playing only on one lane) that is located in... ex platinum division. Let say that system already have set his MMR on some high level (relevant with this division). So now lets think - what happened if this player in ranked game will decide to play on different lane than his main lane (lane that he have never played before - that he do not know how to play at all) - let's skip the sense of something like that but let we note - that it is possible. System will simply put this player without any problems to selected by MMR (in theory) - team. Question we can ask is simply - "why? is that mean that MMR will be the same for main-lane and for lane that he never played on - before"... yes! System do not know how to distinguish with that problem after all, it is known that we have already achieved specific division... it is only one division, not few specified for every different lane. System can not deal with that problem - and becouse of that system "hurts" many players by wrong selection of opponents and allies.

39 Comments

haaaaaaalpDec 31, 20182 votes

This is exactly the reason why we are getting position based mmr next season. No single value can or should be used to represent ranked in all 5 roles.

AkheteruDec 31, 20181 votes

Wait, so I could be gold support and silver top and bronze jungle?

Captain MayoraJan 5, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Wait, so I could be gold support and silver top and bronze jungle?

Not likely

NeosphorosDec 31, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This is exactly the reason why we are getting position based mmr next season. No single value can or should be used to represent ranked in all 5 roles.

OK. So... everyone from season 1 to season 8 was placed in wrong devision... what a scam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWiMZjG3jPc

RIOT - BIGGEST CHEATER EVER

So... who is the next to say that MMR working fine?

Kai GuyDec 31, 20181 votes

Still me. Still go watch that video I keep giving you the link for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA

Its working as intended. It provably works fine.

NeosphorosDec 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=000200010000,timestamp=2018-12-31T22:33:08.651+0000)

Still me. Still go watch that video I keep giving you the link for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA

Its working as intended. It provably works fine.

Movie autor is not connected with RIOT in any way.
How MMR/ELO of LOL works it is his private theory and his ELO-LOL algotithm may have nothing to do with real LOL-ELO algorithm.
Autor says about pool of 600 players that he was testing his system on - without phisical access to system he could not have chance to veryfy all of those possibilities in evaluating games.
Autor always talking about known "strength" by compering it to other player... but we know that "strength" is unknown (or hidded as you like) and if it possible to evaluate at all - he still do not have access to those informatons - moreover if his algorithm may nothing to do with RIOT algorithm.

... ..... many more and it is still 3 minutes left

Kai GuyDec 31, 20181 votes

1 Yes? the point here is im trying to show you how a MMR/Elo system can work for a team game. Its not about riot. Its about the system. Does it work? I keep telling you, yes. you disagree. Here is the math.

2 Its not his private theory. he uses Elo algorithms. Its all clearly shown. He makes a personal MMR system but shows and tests it. This is directly Related to answering a question. The question you have. Can Elo and MMR work?

Solved. Here you go. Some one making and testing one of them. Done. It works. Math checks out. You can make a functional team elo and MMR system.

3 The players are hypothetical, not actual players. He randomly assigns a "skill rating" Remember the assumption in Elo is skill = win % goes up. So he has players randomly assigned with a variable that tweaks their win rate %. Lower skill = more losses. Higher skill = More wins. That's the Strength on a "player" Then in testing he does not use this number to build teams. The system functions like elo, off wins and losses. He uses Monte Carlo for his simulation. Very clear steps. Very clear work.

Your ignorance on the topic shows right here AGIAN in your response. "system he could not have chance to veryfy all of those possibilities in evaluating games." The systems only care about win loss and assigned number. That's Very very easy to track.

4 He tested it. See point 3. Strength = win % = Skill= Ability to win games. Fundamental principle. Your looking at wins losses and draws in Elo and MMR.

Your correct. In theory, this may not have anything to do with riots algorithm. How ever you need to understand at a basic level If team Elo systems work. Then you can learn what expectations to set for the systems. Then you can check the end results. So we do this. Does riots system match the expectations we have for a team elo mmr system?

This is very easy. Does skill impact games? Can you at a glance tell the bottom of the ladder is worse then the top? Yes.

Good rises, Bad falls.

that's literally something we can do for Riots System? that's a clue if they do or do not use Elo and MMR. Makes sense because in season 1 and 2 they literally used what they called a team elo system. And now in every season from 3 on they claim their match maker uses a MMR to build games.

Not champion experience. Not # of games played. Not what division or tier your in. MMR is what is claimed to be used. Knowing how Elo system works and how it can be modified allows us to set realistic understanding from the system.

NeosphorosJan 1, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=00020001000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-31T23:21:48.656+0000)

1 Yes? the point here is im trying to show you how a MMR/Elo system can work for a team game. Its not about riot. Its about the system. Does it work? I keep telling you, yes. you disagree. Here is the math.

2 Its not his private theory. he uses Elo algorithms. Its all clearly shown. He makes a personal MMR system but shows and tests it. This is directly Related to answering a question. The question you have. Can Elo and MMR work?

Solved. Here you go. Some one making and testing one of them. Done. It works. Math checks out. You can make a functional team elo and MMR system.

3 The players are hypothetical, not actual players. He randomly assigns a "skill rating" Remember the assumption in Elo is skill = win % goes up. So he has players randomly assigned with a variable that tweaks their win rate %. Lower skill = more losses. Higher skill = More wins. That's the Strength on a "player" Then in testing he does not use this number to build teams. The system functions like elo, off wins and losses. He uses Monte Carlo for his simulation. Very clear steps. Very clear work.

Your ignorance on the topic shows right here AGIAN in your response. "system he could not have chance to veryfy all of those possibilities in evaluating games." The systems only care about win loss and assigned number. That's Very very easy to track.

4 He tested it. See point 3. Strength = win % = Skill= Ability to win games. Fundamental principle. Your looking at wins losses and draws in Elo and MMR.

Your correct. In theory, this may not have anything to do with riots algorithm. How ever you need to understand at a basic level If team Elo systems work. Then you can learn what expectations to set for the systems. Then you can check the end results. So we do this. Does riots system match the expectations we have for a team elo mmr system?

This is very easy. Does skill impact games? Can you at a glance tell the bottom of the ladder is worse then the top? Yes.

Good rises, Bad falls.

that's literally something we can do for Riots System? that's a clue if they do or do not use Elo and MMR. Makes sense because in season 1 and 2 they literally used what they called a team elo system. And now in every season from 3 on they claim their match maker uses a MMR to build games.

Not champion experience. Not # of games played. Not what division or tier your in. MMR is what is claimed to be used. Knowing how Elo system works and how it can be modified allows us to set realistic understanding from the system.

OK. Lets do it...

The base is chess formula:

En = E + K(+/- 400 + (Eopp - E))

En - new ELO E - old ELO K - stability factor Eopp - opponent ELO (Eopp - E) - player strangth adjustement

First of all, it have to be pointed out that:

this is only a formula that allows you to estimate your score (determining your score for the whole season) for chess (or 1vs1 type game) - it is absolutely correct.
this is not adequate to the pattern of correctness of choosing the opponent because simply in chess there is no such need - when you win your score increases, when you lose - decreases.
in chess there is no system that will decide who should play against specific player and only player making a choice - so players are fully responsible for their decisions and players simply knows about their opponent ELO

Next we have a suggestion that it should be different in the case of the LOL game, because the formula:

En = E + OmK(+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et))

En - new ELO E - old ELO Om - player predicted game infulance K - stability factor

...it will still only determine the player's specific score for a given season - and it is not a pattern that determines the correctness of the selection of players to the teams and it is not a gwarantee that players will be placed in right divisions - which at the same time means that everyone can be placed in any division - from iron to diamond... still heaving similiar ELO/MMR value (nobody can guarantee that even by heaving similiar-high MMR/ELO, specific player will be promoted to higher division). So it can be even that - in a low division there will be players with high ELO / MMR (adequate to ex diamond) which seems pointless - but this formula does not exclude this possibility at all - moreover if...

...if there is possible to ask a question:

How supposedly "Om" would be determined if... "Om" for individual players in a team will be: Om = E + (E!) K (+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) ...which suggests that Om is loop - and hence - will not give a consistent result - which is simply un"evaluatable"/unpredictable... in that way "En" will be look like... En=E+(E + (E!) K (+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)))K(+/-400+(Etopp - Et))
Oposite to part of chess formula (Eopp - E)... LOL have (Etopp - Et) which is not measure a strenght of (single) player (becouse simply it can not - becouse in other way - how system should assess which one of opponents should stand him against us to evaluate strength betwean us) - but - it measure penalty/award ratio which is even not important and absolutely different than evaluating strangth in the same place of formula - ?!?$%^@# Moreover... what "Etopp - Et" means at all? Is "Etopp - Et" trying to assess "RANDOM SINGLE-EVERY-PLAYER OF OUR TEAM AWARD/PENALTY RATIO" by compareing and sume with "RANDOM SINGLE-EVERY-PLAYER OF ENEMY TEAM AWARD/PENALTY RATIO" - WTF? ...where the sense of "strenght" dissapeared?

Kai GuyJan 3, 20191 votes

Your learning and im really happy to see that.

Few corrections.

First up. Might be language barrier here but in your post.

Next we have a suggestion that it should be different in the case of the LOL game, because the formula: En = E + OmK(+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) En - new ELO E - old ELO Om - player predicted game infulance K - stability factor

I don't see you addressing some of the core take always you need to have from that video I gave you. I know your using his team formula because of OM.

Its not going to just be En = E + OmK(+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) at the end of a match. It will be 10 sets of that. All with their own variables relevant to each account + the variables relevant to each match.

The OM is a modification that Rabbit on Da Moon used for his matchmaker system. His OM works to add more MMR gains and losses, over time that extra mmr will favor good players, punish bad ones. Because the odds of a win are higher for better players. The odds of a win are higher for folks the system still has misplaced lower then actual skill. Rng balances out over time in statistical systems.

Elo is a statistical system. Even before building a match maker just off complete RNG for an entire ladder (4:47 for the graph) you can see how hidden strength (player skill, win %) will put better players higher and bad ones lower. This is with no range, no decent match makeing, just complete rng. Like the old Dota all stars days where you only played mobas with custom games. Now his graph,that's out of 1,000 games. Assuming 30 min averaged game times that's a a 500 hours of game time. 20+ Days of non stop league. Good thing match making systems lowers this number.

Now... We add in our match maker. En = E + OmK(+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) is just the adjustment formula per player at match end. Adding a Range to match building, only pull from a 200 range like Rabbit did this smooths the curve out. How the system builds games affects the quality of a match.

**You are not addressing that you understand why we want to build games in a range. **Again might be your English but I feel like you understood this or know why its so important. Why do I feel like this?

So it can be even that - in a low division there will be players with high ELO / MMR (adequate to ex diamond) which seems pointless - but this formula does not exclude this possibility at all - moreover if...

No. There cant naturally be this situation. See it pulls from a range of mmr. so even if you dodge every promotional match. If you have Diamond MMR and your accounts still Bronze 1. You would not be pulled by the system to play with people in low MMRs. your at 1800 it looks to put you into a game where 1800 is in its acceptable range. A smurf in bronze is a smurf. Their MMR is that low that's why it gets placed into those matches. This is not the system failing, its some one actively using knowledge of how mmr works to intentionally manipulate their placement down the ladder.

Get it yet? Its more then just the adjustment formula that goes into making a balanced match and there is multiple adjusments made at the end of a match because each player is tracked separately from their team.

it will still only determine the player's specific score for a given season - and it is not a pattern that determines the correctness of the selection of players to the teams and it is not a guarantee that players will be placed in right divisions

If you don't hit statistical significance in a statistical system then yes there is no guarantee it will place you right. If you only played 3 games of ranked its unlikely to correctly represent your skill.

It is still a pattern how ever.People who beat the people around them constantly is a pattern, So they move higher up the ladder. Players who lose games constantly are a pattern. They move down. This movement goes on until its not a pattern anymore.

It will get you placed to your skill eventually. If you play enough games it will filter out RNG and get to a point its got you at a workable MMR number to represent your skill in relation to the rest of the games playerbase. That's its job, and it accomplishes that.It finds your skill over time. It does not magically know your hidden strength. Like Rabbit said, if you used hidden strength to build a Elo system, your cheating.

You don't call it accurate when the K factor is high, new accounts are mismatched. the systems job is to find and place them over time. Individual matches are not a big deal. Law of large number system.

Also your mistaken, its more then just 1 year. Its a soft reset, not a hard reset. Your placement affects your next season. Soft resets allow for excess MMR to be bleed out of the system and removal of inactive accounts for the ranked ladder.

The point of a competitive ladder is competition. How far can I go with my skill. Lack the skill it doesn't matter how much you play, you wont ever reach the top. Time invested matters, you have to play to win to climb. But Time invested alone is never enough for you to reach the top of the leaderboard if you cant back it up with skill. That's why Elo and MMR gets used for building competitive ladders.

Its off statistics. You can argue all you want at math, but its objective. It doesn't care about you. Its just math. The formulas work for their intended propose, provably so.

..if there is possible to ask a question: How supposedly "Om" would be determined if... "Om" for individual players in a team will be: Om = E + (E!) K (+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) ...which suggests that Om is loop - and hence - will not give a consistent result - which is simply un"evaluatable"/unpredictable... in that way "En" will be look like... En=E+(E + (E!) K (+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)))K(+/-400+(Etopp - Et)) Oposite to part of chess formula (Eopp - E)... LOL have (Etopp - Et) which is not measure a strenght of (single) player (becouse simply it can not - becouse in other way - how system should assess which one of opponents should stand him against us to evaluate strength betwean us) - but - it measure penalty/award ratio which is even not important and absolutely different than evaluating strangth in the same place of formula - ?!?$%^@# Moreover... what "Etopp - Et" means at all? Is "Etopp - Et" trying to assess "RANDOM SINGLE-EVERY-PLAYER OF OUR TEAM AWARD/PENALTY RATIO" by compareing and sume with "RANDOM SINGLE-EVERY-PLAYER OF ENEMY TEAM AWARD/PENALTY RATIO" - WTF? ...where the sense of "strenght" dissapeared?

How is om made? Assuming we are talking about Rabbits it was off MMR in relation to teammates. Does it loop? No. I will walk you thru it. The Adjustment formula turns into a number at the end. You had 1400, won a match. After your adjusted your now at 1450 mmr. Your next game it will build your OM in the adjustment off your new mmr of 1450. In Rabbits it will look at your teammates. Your OM is going to be in relation to them. If your 1450 is lower then average your OM is lowered. If your 1450 is higher then team average your om is higher. Rabbit's OM is built from previous games, Off your current MMR + averages for your teammates current mmr (look at 4:08 you see how he is only looking at a single team for this, its not built off the other team.) And It doesn't look at your future mmr after the adjustment. The Om variable, is built and set at the start of a match. After the games done that value is plugged into the adjustment formula. There is no loop because its ready to go prior to starting the adjustment process.

This works to add extra MMR to your system, with the trend in wins and losses this means that we see a more rapid climb for good players, they cash in more often on extra mmr gains. Even if its 100% rng for if you see the extra MMR gains from OM the trend of player strength to win% will assist our goal. Move good players up, bad ones down. Its predictable when you factor in Player strength/skill. It doesn't change any core functionality of the System, just speeds it up.

Your mistake. Etopp is a combined team score. You also seem to have completely forgotten or missed that we have a set range for matchmaker. Etopp is built from a section of the ladder not every player in the game. Etopp would be averaged MMR for all players on a team, both teams Etopp should be as close to identical as possible for a "fair" match. In a "unfair" match, when there's just not a perfect match, then the adjustment formula gets changes to reflect that one team is favored. The systems assessment is off players mmr. It assumes any one with higher MMR is stronger then you. any one with less is weaker. So Eopp - E In this is build around the entire Team scores and predictions. (K factor and OM are player specific.)

Also, despite the caps lock its not completely random. "RANDOM SINGLE-EVERY-PLAYER OF OUR TEAM AWARD/PENALTY RATIO" You need to understand that just because its variables it is not pure rng. there are rules. Theres multiple variable values but they are not generated randomly. They are built by the system. There's rules, like the ones it uses to build matches. What it considers fair. The range it pulls from matters. Strength relation in to the equation? "Strength" in Elo/MMR is going to be your ability to win if your mismatched. low strength and you drop. High and you climb. Strengths the players skill, its what determines an outcome and tells the system hey your assumption on my skill is wrong, adjust accordingly. We have 10 individual adjustment formulas at a matches end. This is fair.

Remember we can't use actual strength to build our system, but we can to test it. Its the hidden skill matching assigned skill thats what the systems trying to find. The entire point is to get to having the assigned MMR/Elo be a increasingly accurate representation of a players skill.

So no doubt, teammates do impact your ability to win or lose a match. Opponents affect a match. This does not stop the system from functioning correctly. It expects mismatches, to be wrong, its self correcting to deal with that. Rabbit's vid shows this clearly.

out of room. ask if you need more clarity on anything and I will do my best.

NeosphorosJan 3, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=0002000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-03T00:15:15.260+0000)

Your learning and im really happy to see that.

Few corrections.

First up. Might be language barrier here but in your post. En = E + OmK(+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) En - new ELO E - old ELO Om - player predicted game infulance K - stability factor

I don't see you addressing some of the core take always you need to have from that video I gave you. I know your using his team formula because of OM.

Its not going to just be En = E + OmK(+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) at the end of a match. It will be 10 sets of that. All with their own variables relevant to each account + the variables relevant to each match.

The OM is a modification that Rabbit on Da Moon used for his matchmaker system. His OM works to add more MMR gains and losses, over time that extra mmr will favor good players, punish bad ones. Because the odds of a win are higher for better players. The odds of a win are higher for folks the system still has misplaced lower then actual skill. Rng balances out over time in statistical systems.

Elo is a statistical system. Even before building a match maker just off complete RNG for an entire ladder (4:47 for the graph) you can see how hidden strength (player skill, win %) will put better players higher and bad ones lower. This is with no range, no decent match makeing, just complete rng. Like the old Dota all stars days where you only played mobas with custom games. Now his graph,that's out of 1,000 games. Assuming 30 min averaged game times that's a a 500 hours of game time. 20+ Days of non stop league. Good thing match making systems lowers this number.

Now... We add in our match maker. En = E + OmK(+/- 400 + (Etopp - Et)) is just the adjustment formula per player at match end. Adding a Range to match building, only pull from a 200 range like Rabbit did this smooths the curve out. How the system builds games affects the quality of a match.

**You are not addressing that you understand why we want to build games in a range. **Again might be your English but I feel like you understood this or know why its so important. Why do I feel like this?

No. There cant naturally be this situation. See it pulls from a range of mmr. so even if you dodge every promotional match. If you have Diamond MMR and your accounts still Bronze 1. You would not be pulled by the system to play with people in low MMRs. your at 1800 it looks to put you into a game where 1800 is in its acceptable range. A smurf in bronze is a smurf. Their MMR is that low that's why it gets placed into those matches. This is not the system failing, its some one actively using knowledge of how mmr works to intentionally manipulate their placement down the ladder.

Get it yet? Its more then just the adjustment formula that goes into making a balanced match and there is multiple adjusments made at the end of a match because each player is tracked separately from their team.

...

Once again, I begin to doubt the sense of discussion with you because your statements have a form of manipulation.

You have present to me a film - as proof of your thesis, and when I reply to you and refer to this film - you are cheating on me for not dealing with the most important issues - although you have not presented any other evidence to me.

When I present my own interpretation of the pattern given in the film and undermining the meaning of its sens, you update it saying that it is not the whole pattern and in the final version it is much more extensive. In this way, no one will ever be able to address your arguments if you update your previous ideas to each subsequent comment.

Give me the full formula for calculating the MMR, otherwise it will be able to recognize that you do not know (or are not sure) what you are writing about.

If you do not have it... why we actually talking about things you are not sure or you do not have sufficient knowledge?

Only becouse you thinking - you know - how it works - it does not makes you an authority in this matter. All of your comments are based on suppositions not supported by facts.

Even movie itself was created based on virtual testing system without real players but only "assumption" of WHAT IF type, so it even is impossible to relate to enviroment with real people with variable nature. Things which are fixed in math and will give result (ex) = 1... are not if it is about people and will give an result =! 1

Your statements can be interpreted as a desire to do with your interlocutor - a fool.

Kai GuyJan 3, 20191 votes

If you do not have it... why we actually talking about things you are not sure or you do not have sufficient knowledge?

If you actually thought this was important? You would not have made this post. Why is it You can attack me for not using riots exact systems butyour allowed to do it? Not only that your doing it in a way that clearly shows you don't know how the system functions.

I know, you will want proof. Here ya go mate.

and MOST IMPORTANT PROOF that system like MMR/ELO can not work properly with teamgame with so many variables (different lanes, 140 different champions):

Yo man. How many times do you need it said. Elo adjusts off wins. Losses. Draws. All those variables you mentioned are bundled into this. Did, you, win? How do you still not understand the fundamentals of Elo systems?

Look I get it. If you actually admitted Elo works as intended, you have to accept your on the ladder in a reasonable spot for your skill. It Looks like you don't want to do that. If we may loose or win depend only on system, nothing more. If system (because some reason) will decide that we have to loose - we will loose. And I'm hardstucked in silver. Not becouse my skills, it is becouse broken system that selecting weak players to my team. Experience is not exactly the same as skill, but if you will be more experienced than your enemy - you should know more, you should be better prepared and if you are not stupid you should win the game.

Your ignorance on the topic is clear. Your a weaker source of knowlage then me.

Your bad at google.

"Give me the link please - becouse google can not find it... seriously? Google can not? If google can not... it means that is not exist." You got given a list of Riot Faq and Rioter posts, riot Blogs.

Your bad At finding pages on lol wik

"Even LOL wikia forgot to describe it... weird and incredible" Gave you the 2 pages where lol wiki describes it. You don't read the offical FAQ How do you know that if RIOT - N E V E R - and - N O W H E R E - have not describe how the MMR functioning?

You make Awful assumptions.

ELO system was "invented" for 1vs1 chess games and is has nothing to do with RIOT system (it can not have). 20 days ago^

You STICK BY THEM

ELO is a "proper name" and it is only relate to "this" specific type of games - chess games and it is not equal to - for example "MMR" which is mean MatchMakingRating system (in general) that suggest any type of system with ELO included. 16 days ago ^

After Days of effort finally a breakthrough you finally get theres a relation between the systems.

System ELO can work with LOL, but only with CONSTANT/FIXED (keyword) team (with same players) then whole team could be evaluated/rated in ELO way as a one/unity

You how ever get it mixed up and understand it backwards.

MMR is general name for all of systems... ELO is kind of MMR system.

You have a poor understanding of a lot of thigns. For example You did not understand what Base damage is. You made this thread

How the heck Lich Bane works?

Look man. I am not trying to attack you. I am trying to be civil, i am trying to help with the language barrier. Im doing my best to ignore the insults you keep throwing at me. Hell I am not making an issue of you slandering my integrity.

But I wont give you a pass to lie.

"When I present my own interpretation of the pattern given in the film and undermining the meaning of its sens, you update it saying that it is not the whole pattern and in the final version it is much more extensive. In this way, no one will ever be able to address your arguments if you update your previous ideas to each subsequent comment."

Your not showing you understood the film.

Why are you not talking about range in matchmaker building games? Remember that's part of the video I showed you. It smoothed out the curve a great deal. You have to understand that matchmaker needs to build games in a range. That's just basics.

Next. you need to account for each player with adjustment. Its clearly explained that you have to do this in the film or it wont work. You can not skip this step. I need you to understand this. At the end of a game of PvP SR there are 10 adjustment formulas ran. One per player. That's, just, Basics.

You think that OM loops. You don't seem to understand how it was built. Its made from relation of starting Elo score for each teammember. The OM variable is a real number at the start of a game. Its determined prior to running the adjustment formula. It does not look at itself to find itself. Remember all the variables get filled in with relevant data. Your K factor, the Etopp-et The E the OM all of it. The variables all get plugged in according to the rules of the system. ITs not looking at itself in the adjustment formula it looks at Teammates and

you don't get Etopp-ET function.

Etopp - ET is the system accounting for Mismatched games. It cant always make a on paper 50% fair match. So when it makes a game that it thinks is unfair on paper we see Etopp - ET be relevant. Is "Etopp - Et" trying to assess "RANDOM SINGLE-EVERY-PLAYER OF OUR TEAM AWARD/PENALTY RATIO

No, Etopp - et is to make adjustments to a teams risk in MMR gains and losses at the end of a match. We know it wont be 50% every game. That changes ET. Etopp is a variable. It can be different for both teams. Team A might be averaged at 1335. Team B might be 1340. That's a small advantage for team B so the ET for team A is lower. The system thinks Team B has a advantage. Overall team B stands to gain less MMR for a win and lose more on a loss. This is then divided up further by player into OM and K factor which is not the same per player.

You need 1 adjustment formula per player. Understand that yet?

you update it saying that it is not the whole pattern and in the final version it is much more extensive.

No. you just seem to have missed or willfully ignored information and im not letting you get away with that.

Really easy information you needed to learn, and failed it seems.

You want Riots entire system? How many days ago did I tell you that's impossible for me to give you? Like, that's no mystery. But your here arguing about Champion mastery and its relation to riots matchmaker and this is all just random guesswork and shows bad understanding how MMR works. Because your looking at more then wins or losses yet that's the core for a Elo and MMR system. Wins. Losses.

A check list for you. Things you need to know.

We need 1 adjustment per player. Om was is off your starting MMR in relation to teammates. Its not off end game adjustment. It does not loop off itself. a matchmaker system builds games, not the Elo adjustment formula. aFunctional matchmaker needs to try to build games around a small range of assumed "skill" Etopp-et works off mismatches when Matchmaker cant make what it thinks is a fair match. This is calculated separately from k factor. Not ever player inherently has the same stake in a match. Some times this might happen but its unlikely as the variables tend to be player specific. Why? Again... K factor. Also OM in rabbits system. Also Etopp-Et for each team. SOFT RESETS ARE A THING WE DO YEARLY. Not hard resets. MATCHMAKER BUILDS OF HIDDEN MMR. Not champion mastery or # of games played.

Riots system is more complex but it is still a Elo derevitive. The same concept with the same simple end goal. Bad players sink, Good players rise.

You really have no ground to argue your not making stuff up. You tried to tell me Elo only works for chess. You have multiple times made incorrect statements because of a lack of knowledge. You can attack my integrity all you want. I am still giving you correct information. I am still trying to help.

Elo systems are proven to work in a 5v5 game like league. That's not an opinion. That is a fact. Provable. Showen. I cant help that its to hard for you to understand. I can try to explain what your curious about. your ignorance is not disproof. Your inability to supply your burden of proof is not my job to fix. YOU need to prove your points, likeI do . You cant just keep adding to my work load.

Give me the full formula for calculating the MMR, otherwise it will be able to recognize that you do not know (or are not sure) what you are writing about. I gave you a working one already. You just don't know how to use it but That's not my fault. Also you misrepresenting how it functions. you need multiple adjustments. You need a matchmaker range. You complain about his virtual test yet it was rng just like your in game experience. RNG win %. You do need more then just the adjustment formula. You also need to undersand what the basic variables in the adjustment represent. You don't. Bummer. I'll teach you if your willing to learn. I know 4+4=8. I will tell you its 8 not 44.

haaaaaaalpJan 3, 20191 votes

No, we didn't have role pick until season 6 remember? Season 1-5 was fine. Season 6 had no solo queue. Start of season 7 was fine because there wasn't enough time to develop a meaningful divergence. Realistically, the system didn't become a problem until late season 7.

NhifuDec 30, 20181 votes

Champion level has nothing to do with matchmaking.

I wish it did though, then we won't see "It's my first time playing Yasuo in placements!"

Cats Are FoodDec 30, 20181 votes

In earlier seasons it wasn't so bad. They basically used a version of True Skill, but changed the algorithm completely after it was figured out for some damned reason.

NeosphorosDec 31, 20181 votes

SUGGESTION:

"TrueSkill is a skill-based ranking system developed by Microsoft for use with video game matchmaking on Xbox Live. Unlike the popular Elo rating system, which was initially designed for chess, TrueSkill is designed to support games with more than two players."

Cats Are FoodDec 31, 20181 votes

They used to use fundamentally the same algorithm, until it was found out.

Kai GuyDec 31, 20181 votes

Man, I wish you paid better attention to my responses.

The K factor. uncertainty. Its higher on newer accounts. some one awfull whos playing stuff they don't know IS a liability. Low K factor = low experience. They lose MMR faster then players in a division with games played.

Get it? Elo/MMR/Trueskill All inherently account for players having low or higher experience. Its already built into the system.

Champion mastery? That's just a tracker for time invested. Not skill. You can be mastery 7 and still a subpar player on a champion. Adding Champion mastery into your matchmaker is a mistake.

Look I know why your going on about this. You have another thread https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EEcPrLo8-why-elo-system-can-not-work-properly-in-lol-normal-drat-ranked-soloduo

Your complaining about teammates vs enemy team mastery levels. You need to realize there's no way for the system to control what champions a player picks. Theres never a 100% way for it to know who is playing what.

How many times do you need me to give you this link? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA <- click this. watch it. LEARN ABOUT MMR AND ELO!

I will help you translate it if you need. I know there's a language barrier. Yet at some point man you need to actual check the links I keep giving you. You say something wrong. I correct you. I give sourses. You don't check them and use your lack of understanding to validate your views.

I will help you if you let me.

Also. What happened to going question for question with me? You dipped out with out even answering me. Same question. Did you watch this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA

NeosphorosDec 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-12-31T22:09:40.350+0000)

Man, I wish you paid better attention to my responses.

The K factor. uncertainty. Its higher on newer accounts. some one awfull whos playing stuff they don't know IS a liability. Low K factor = low experience. They lose MMR faster then players in a division with games played.

Get it? Elo/MMR/Trueskill All inherently account for players having low or higher experience. Its already built into the system.

Champion mastery? That's just a tracker for time invested. Not skill. You can be mastery 7 and still a subpar player on a champion. Adding Champion mastery into your matchmaker is a mistake.

Look I know why your going on about this. You have another thread https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/EEcPrLo8-why-elo-system-can-not-work-properly-in-lol-normal-drat-ranked-soloduo

Your complaining about teammates vs enemy team mastery levels. You need to realize there's no way for the system to control what champions a player picks. Theres never a 100% way for it to know who is playing what.

How many times do you need me to give you this link? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA <- click this. watch it. LEARN ABOUT MMR AND ELO!

I will help you translate it if you need. I know there's a language barrier. Yet at some point man you need to actual check the links I keep giving you. You say something wrong. I correct you. I give sourses. You don't check them and use your lack of understanding to validate your views.

I will help you if you let me.

Also. What happened to going question for question with me? You dipped out with out even answering me. Same question. Did you watch this yet? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA

If you will also write something about L-factor, I-factor and E-factor probobly you will be able to answer also on "ultimate question" but now you are simply building a cotton head.

You creating story that not exist.

If RIOT knows informations that you have... I have that feeling that "they" know less than you know. Do not you think that you should inf.orm them how the MMR should (or work) works becouse I'm thinking that they still did not update their system straight with your guidelines.

Kai GuyDec 31, 20181 votes

Its called the K factor. If you took a moment to actually READ AND LEARN you would understand it and why its relevant. It measures uncertainty. Microsoft true skill uses σ in their formula to represent uncertainty.

Your ignorance of the basic terms in these systems, Terms that are used in articles about them, its very telling you have a awful understanding of the systems.

You sound like a child proudly telling a teacher 4+4=44. No, its not. your wrong, your answer is so wrong that any one with a basic understanding of match can correct you. You don't need to know algebra, you don't need to be a professor. A basic understanding of addition is all that's needed to say, hey man you got this wrong.

That's where I am at with you on Elo systems. That's why I need you to actualy take a moment and learn. Why you need to stop just building your argument of your opinion and observations. You show poor understanding of how or why things work.

Watch. The. Damm. Video.

I will translate it for you if needed.

Your lack of understanding here is Crippling my ability to assist you. Like I cant have a conversation with you about how multiplication works when you still sitting here struggling with basic addition. I am giving you the tools to educate yourself. Please use them.

4+4 is not 44. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA

NeosphorosDec 31, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2018-12-31T22:28:56.476+0000)

Its called the K factor. If you took a moment to actually READ AND LEARN you would understand it and why its relevant. It measures uncertainty. Microsoft true skill uses σ in their formula to represent uncertainty.

Your ignorance of the basic terms in these systems, Terms that are used in articles about them, its very telling you have a awful understanding of the systems.

You sound like a child proudly telling a teacher 4+4=44. No, its not. your wrong, your answer is so wrong that any one with a basic understanding of match can correct you. You don't need to know algebra, you don't need to be a professor. A basic understanding of addition is all that's needed to say, hey man you got this wrong.

That's where I am at with you on Elo systems. That's why I need you to actualy take a moment and learn. Why you need to stop just building your argument of your opinion and observations. You show poor understanding of how or why things work.

Watch. The. Damm. Video.

I will translate it for you if needed.

Your lack of understanding here is Crippling my ability to assist you. Like I cant have a conversation with you about how multiplication works when you still sitting here struggling with basic addition. I am giving you the tools to educate yourself. Please use them.

4+4 is not 44. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA

{quoted}

This is exactly the reason why we are getting position based mmr next season. No single value can or should be used to represent ranked in all 5 roles.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/pl/c/gameplay-balance/h7AakfUY-mmr-the-real-algorithm

Kai GuyDec 31, 20181 votes

Im actively posting in that thread already.

1 single value is used to represent every class and role in most games. OW, dota etc. It does not stop a Elo system from working as intended. Might slow it down, but wont stop it.

You need to stay on topic.

Again, you don't show a understand a basic term used.** K factor.** You don't show any understanding that its relevant or why. You are not showing any indication you have any idea why or how elo systems work. I explain it, you don't trust me. I give you links, you don't check them. How do I help you learn?

It took me what.. the better part of a month to get you to understand why Elo can be adapted for team games?

your argument was, LULZ IT WAS MADE FOR CHESS ONLY WORKS FOR CHESS CUZ THATS WUT IT WAS MADE 4 KAI! Like.. im not even positive you actually have changed your mind on this yet but I hope you have.

4+4=44. Your ignorance on the topic was clear.

Your dismissive attitude to K factor.

If you will also write something about L-factor, I-factor and E-factor probobly you will be able to answer also on "ultimate question" but now you are simply building a cotton head.

I did not coin the phrase. That's what its called. It matters. Your dismissing it, your lack of knowledge shows because of that. Your trying to argue 4+4=44. You are wrong. Its really simple.

You can not like me. You can attack my credibility. You can deflect. You can lie. You can insult me.

I don't care.

Ill just keep resolutely trying to teach you until you are willing to learn. Its worth my time. Other players use a public forum and every interaction we have I can make into a lesson for others because I actually like to help folks.

I will ask you again. Have you watched the video I keep giving you. Do you need help translating it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA

NeosphorosJan 1, 20191 votes

Oposite to 1vs1 chess in almost imposible to create a strategy for random-created team, so... why the author your movie has assumed that it was not necessary to evaluate player by his role in team and position? - nobody knows.

So...

"what happened if any player in ranked game will decide to play on different lane than his main lane and whole his ELO is based on?"

...is the autor trying to say that player ELO/MMR (or whole his experience if you wish) is universal and will be the same for every role/lane even he never palyed on specific lane

It is like to say that basketball player should have the same ELO/MMR in basketball and football even this player have never played in football

If this specific player have build his ELO/MMR on specific lane/role should be different for lane that he never played before in other way formula for LOL-ELO is broken.

In single sentence it is possible to say that:

ELO formula is based on "probability" inside on "probabilty" and one specific result based on (in theory) fixed values may give in many cases - differnt values

NeosphorosJan 1, 20191 votes

It can be said that this LOL-ELO/MMR formula allows to determine of ELO / MMR in random teams, but purely - by accident - only based on total randomness.... because the multiplicity of "variables" prevents the assumption of fixed values and therefore the correct match of players.

NeosphorosJan 2, 20191 votes

The players are hypothetical, not actual players. He randomly assigns a "skill rating" Remember the assumption in Elo is skill = win % goes up. So he has players randomly assigned with a variable that tweaks their win rate %. Lower skill = more losses. Higher skill = More wins. That's the Strength on a "player" Then in testing he does not use this number to build teams. The system functions like elo, off wins and losses. He uses Monte Carlo for his simulation. Very clear steps. Very clear work.

It means only that if you will put specific player to and against team with similiar MMR - PROBABILITY to win will be always 50% and if your team is randomly selected you have no possibility to affect on your team.

Including also the fact that we (as a players) can not predict AFK, trolls etc - PROBABILITY decreasing... and it is even possible to say that everyone will have the same problem becouse many factors contribute to this.

Kai GuyJan 3, 20191 votes

you fail to understand how he made his testing I see.

Also. its not 50% always.

You see matchmaker puts as close to 50% on paper It can. The system expects to be wrong. higher uncertainty = more dramatic gains and losses. That way people who win a lot or lose a lot get out of the range matchmaker pulls from and get placed with others near that range. If their wins and losses don't change they keep that movement on the ladder going.

The hidden strength in rabbits video is him putting skill onto accounts. Low strength = bad player. Whats a bad player in Elo? some one who consistently loses. Whats a good player in Elo? Some one who wins a lot. The wins and losses for each team was a variable with complete RNG. over time the simulation does a good job of sorting players to a reasonable level of skill.

Your literally the only reliable factor in your team. If you cant trust yourself to make high positive impact consistently then no fucking duh the games going to be luck. Your sitting there begging some one to carry you each match.

If your above your skill your team is stronger. Your undervalued. The system made a match thinking your worse then yo are. You carry more weight. IN. EVER. GAME. ALWAYS.

or your not good enough to make that impact so you cant win often.

Also man. Don't quote me and make a reply to it with out at least putting my name in the box or letting me know your making a reply to something I said somewhere completely disconnected to our conversation.

I will say this again and again and again and again until it sinks in. For 5v5 matchmaker Elo systems you need to only pull players from a range. That range needs to be small enough that folks who are sinking rapidly or rising rapidly don't linger in that mmr for extended periods of time.

Matchmaker is part of the matchmaking system. Who, would, have, ever, guessed?

its not me adding on. It was in the video. You should know this. Basic understanding. Basic expectations.

NeosphorosJan 3, 20191 votes

Observing the system, one can come to a conclusion. Well, the selection of players to teams works according to a certain pattern / script. If you want to develop the skill of the game with only one specific hero, the system will assign very weak sojaczników from the beginning, but over time - will choose the better ones. It will always be suggested by post-match statistics. Regardless of how good we would not play (almost), we will always lose the first few games. However, as you can observe the same problem, there will be no opponents.

NeosphorosJan 3, 20191 votes

[deleted]

Kai GuyJan 3, 20191 votes

Oh man, your a gem.

I'm not gonna discuss with you anymore. You are troll.

And in the same breath.

KAI GUY... maybe you will try to create formula for this specific case ?

Pick one. Do you want me to comment on your Normal games? Or are you infact truly done talking with me.

Fair warning. I am going to rip into you if you chose want me to engage because you made it clear you wont treat me with any respect.

Do You really want me to talk to you about normals?

NeosphorosJan 3, 20191 votes

What is the chance in properly functioning system (that selects players according to a similar level of experience) that in five subsequent lost games were selected trols / noobs... none? So why is it happened?

https://i.ibb.co/5xgYznq/1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/6gXcbRX/2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/cTR3D1m/3.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/TcyT5dT/4.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/HHMMtzf/5.jpg

troll/noob in this case = player with K/D/a < 1)
every enemy had K/D/A > 1 or even > 2

It follows that in 10 consecutive games the probability that I had troll / noob in my team (and maybe becouse of that - I lost the game) was 50%.

NeosphorosJan 3, 20191 votes

[deleted]

Kai GuyJan 4, 20191 votes

Sivir <- Support. item 3098 item 3285 item 3108

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] your a gem mate. a real gem.

NeosphorosJan 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-01-04T03:07:10.629+0000)

<- Support.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] your a gem mate. a real gem.

Are you blind mate? It was not me who was feeding/trolling.

In the same way you can blame the dog, that sun - shines, your fishes - that it rains or global warming, that it is still night after the midnight.

In every lost game I had troll/noob/afk in game which is means that all games I lost - Player Selecting System have chosen those players for some purpose to my team - to manipulate the score.

Kai GuyJan 4, 20191 votes

Tell me, What exactly is stopping the argument of "In every **Won **game I had troll/noob/afk in game which is means that all games I Won- Player Selecting System have chosen those players for some purpose to my **enemy **Team- to manipulate the score"

How would you feel if some one said on the boards to you that"You only win because your enemys are feeders trolls trash. That's the System rigging it."

Your awesome kda. They don't listen or care. its the system not you. Your build, don't care. system. You going 25-1/ S rate PENTA KILLED. NO LITEN TO ME BRO Your not good. Its just the system rigging the game.

^ does this sound accurate to the game state to you. That your individual skill has no impact on the out come of a win because its just the enemy team being intentional set up to lose?

I don't think that's realistic. I don't think the argument, I only lose because teammates. Is realistic.

You cant predict Prior to the lobby a players picks. Did the system know your going to play AP nasus support and go 0-4-2 with 7% kill participation? no.

Does the system care if your in game statistics are good?

That depends. Is it elo and mmr because those only look at wins and losses. Even the ones like t Blizzards OW/HotS MMR systems. The Blizzard devs still clearly state your accounts rateing only goes up if you win and goes down for a loss.

Look,I keep dragging you back to the topic of elo and mmr for a reason. You need to understand it. You don't show you get it yet. This frustrates me because it feel like the only reason you don't want to learn is youd have to give up on an opinion of yours.

But you can do it. I know this. you can, because your not telling people it only works for chess anymore. You learned.

Now for ap siv. Its weak for support.

but fit in the support position really well. So it is totally valid and correct to call such a character a support if that's their strongest position currently ^ listen to this guy. Is it her strongest position currently? No. Is running a ineffeciant build valid? No. you need to apply context better man.

0.5 ap scaling for 1 Q hit. up to .925 if it tags them on return and doesn't have damage reduction from hitting other targets. Nothing else in her kit. Just Q.

Add in 0.5 from lichbane. 0.1 from Ludens. 0.15 From nashors. Best case she can get up to a 1.675 Ap ratio with items for her kit.

Meanwhile her Q at max rank has 2.035 AD scaling best case.

I get the SUPRISE I HAVE BURST AP cheese. But if your wanting to play to win, and wanting to play Siv support. Why not look into builds that have better synergy with her kit and provide utility to teammates? Sacrificing some damage for utility and actual power for your champion would help you win more.

because by level 3. 10 ad will out damage 20 ap on her Q.

Even with item 3115 . Each point of AD is still 0.85 higher damage then each point of AP.

Or ignore me. Do your own thing. don't check the math for champions. You lose 2 out of 3 games as Ap siv. your call. you do you.

( item 3071 seems like a good option for a off meta support sivir build.)

NeosphorosJan 5, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-04T22:57:00.098+0000)

Tell me, What exactly is stopping the argument of "In every **Won **game I had troll/noob/afk in game which is means that all games I Won- Player Selecting System have chosen those players for some purpose to my **enemy **Team- to manipulate the score"

How would you feel if some one said on the boards to you that"You only win because your enemys are feeders trolls trash. That's the System rigging it."

Your awesome kda. They don't listen or care. its the system not you. Your build, don't care. system. You going 25-1/ S rate PENTA KILLED. NO LITEN TO ME BRO Your not good. Its just the system rigging the game.

^ does this sound accurate to the game state to you. That your individual skill has no impact on the out come of a win because its just the enemy team being intentional set up to lose?

I don't think that's realistic. I don't think the argument, I only lose because teammates. Is realistic.

You cant predict Prior to the lobby a players picks. Did the system know your going to play AP nasus support and go 0-4-2 with 7% kill participation? no.

Does the system care if your in game statistics are good?

That depends. Is it elo and mmr because those only look at wins and losses. Even the ones like t Blizzards OW/HotS MMR systems. The Blizzard devs still clearly state your accounts rateing only goes up if you win and goes down for a loss.

Look,I keep dragging you back to the topic of elo and mmr for a reason. You need to understand it. You don't show you get it yet. This frustrates me because it feel like the only reason you don't want to learn is youd have to give up on an opinion of yours.

But you can do it. I know this. you can, because your not telling people it only works for chess anymore. You learned.

Now for ap siv. Its weak for support.
^ listen to this guy. Is it her strongest position currently? No. Is running a ineffeciant build valid? No. you need to apply context better man.

0.5 ap scaling for 1 Q hit. up to .925 if it tags them on return and doesn't have damage reduction from hitting other targets. Nothing else in her kit. Just Q.

Add in 0.5 from lichbane. 0.1 from Ludens. 0.15 From nashors. Best case she can get up to a 1.675 Ap ratio with items for her kit.

Meanwhile her Q at max rank has 2.035 AD scaling best case.

I get the SUPRISE I HAVE BURST AP cheese. But if your wanting to play to win, and wanting to play Siv support. Why not look into builds that have better synergy with her kit and provide utility to teammates? Sacrificing some damage for utility and actual power for your champion would help you win more.

because by level 3. 10 ad will out damage 20 ap on her Q.

Even with . Each point of AD is still 0.85 higher damage then each point of AP.

Or ignore me. Do your own thing. don't check the math for champions. You lose 2 out of 3 games as Ap siv. your call. you do you.

( seems like a good option for a off meta support sivir build.)

The comments of this forum member have signs of trolling and harassing, could any of the moderators verify this please.

Over and over he constantly writes about the same using the same arguments in differents comments by changing their forms, so the discussion is impossible to settle.

Kai GuyJan 5, 20191 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused] Please don't reply to me or ask for me to respond, by name, if you don't want to actually have a conversation.

also if your trying to report some one. On the Na boards its located at the bottom right. You literally could have just asked me to lay off. That would build a clear case for harassment if I refused.

I feel its Unkind of you to respond like this when I keep answering what your asking time after time. Fine, your intent is clear, good luck.

NeosphorosJan 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9RjGzFKk,comment-id=000b0000,timestamp=2019-01-04T03:07:10.629+0000)

<- Support.

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs] your a gem mate. a real gem.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/pl/c/gameplay-balance/Hf7hbh62-psa-zyra-and-brand-are-not-supports

{quoted}

Support the position is different from Support the character archetype

That's why they call the support classes things like Enchanter, Vanguard, Warden, etc...

In theory any character can be taken to the support position, so in some metagames there are characters that don't play a supportive role in terms of character design, but fit in the support position really well. So it is totally valid and correct to call such a character a support if that's their strongest position currently.

NeosphorosJan 4, 20191 votes

6th game lost because AFK/troll/noob = 60% of 10 last games and 100% of lost games because AFK/troll/noob does not look like coincidence but purposeful operation of the system.

https://i.ibb.co/S3XsZjM/6.jpg