meles are getting poked by ranged? np 
along with a doran shield buff
can't push without a ranged ad carry? np your mages can build 
and 
meles adc can't damage in safety? 
is here for you
@Riot did you consider adding those items in league?
7ha7guy77715 votesHaving trouble getting to the adc because they're kiting?
Getting poked down by an adc top as an ad melee champion?
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesa lot of those items are good in this way i think the people who did those items didn't think that it would be a good way to counter ranged
i hope a red responses
7ha7guy7772 votesI had to deal with a tristana top as olaf. Once i had thornmail and flesheater i could ignore her while farming as she killed herself on me. It was incredibly annoying before i finished both items and we lost anyway but i probably would have been screwed without them.
Lowvyr4 votesDo not allow Flesheater into this game. That item is broken beyond relief. It just makes the top laning phase never end.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesDo not allow Flesheater into this game. That item is broken beyond relief. It just makes the top laning phase never end.
i didn't even talk about it
VDc0zCqe0w4 votesadc are useless why do you want to get rid of them?
KONO RUBICK DA16 votesThey are played every games, why would they be useless?
by the way, those changes don't nerf them their strength remain the same, it just gives us the chance to play mele bot
VDc0zCqe0w2 votesby the way, those changes don't nerf them their strength remain the same, it just gives us the chance to play mele bot
and this is bad
i specifically switched from support to ADC due to tanks being overbearing in botlane, i don't want melee carries to be the new tanks
Raptamei12 votesand this is bad
i specifically switched from support to ADC due to tanks being overbearing in botlane, i don't want melee carries to be the new tanks
TIL Master Yi is a tank.
VDc0zCqe0w3 votesTIL Master Yi is a tank.
i was making a comparison
i used to play support inS2-S3: there were poke-sustain supports mostly, and a few tanks
tjhen S4-S5 happened: tank or Janna/Morgana or GTFO and i was mad because i didn't like tanks at all
then i switched to ADC in S5 because i'm 100% sure i will play as a ranged ad carry vs another ranged ad carry, and i don't really want master yi to come to play bot and mess things up, i already experienced this shit with the support role and sure as hell it's not fun when you like to play a class of champions and another class comes and takes over your lane
KONO RUBICK DA1 voteshow master yi will mess things up?
VDc0zCqe0w2 voteshow master yi will mess things up?
i don't know if he will, but i don't wanna try
probably the same way Nautilus, Leona, Thresh, Blitz, Shen, Trundle etc... messed up botlane
KONO RUBICK DA2 votestrundle shen didn't messed up, they were actually even weak especially shen since he was squishy
nautilus i admit because he had too much damage
basically you're the "i don't want changes" guy
Mecha MaIphite3 votesI go top expecting to fight another melee, and I get Quinn.
But I suck it up because I know I can build to counter her.
VDc0zCqe0w2 votesI go top expecting to fight another melee, and I get Quinn.
But I suck it up because I know I can build to counter her.
Quinn shouldn't be top i am with you on this, she's boring top and quite oppressive, and i would like to play her as an adc
Risurin1 votesQuinn shouldn't be top i am with you on this, she's boring top and quite oppressive, and i would like to play her as an adc
I'd love to play quinn bot, but having an ultimate that make you melee, just doesnt feel right for an ADCs, whereas her kit seem to be made for solo lane atm.
iamleburk1 votesWhat if you brought her mid? Play her like a ranged talon... i already use the same masteries for those two anyway
Risurin1 votesWhat if you brought her mid? Play her like a ranged talon... i already use the same masteries for those two anyway
she lacks the assassination potential of talon. and assassin builds wouldnt be too great on her either. And what you gonna do with your roams anyway ? E them ? You can farm your lane i suppose, but i think most current midlaners can already do just that.
iamleburk1 votesR-E-Q-many AA's-R generally works for me. She doesnt do as much damage as talon, but she deffinitely has assassination potential.
Risurin1 votesR-E-Q-many AA's-R generally works for me. She doesnt do as much damage as talon, but she deffinitely has assassination potential.
No. Thats not assassination potential. That's literally what every champion does when they use their abilities. Assassination potential is best described as quick execution and elimination of a target and run away with it. MF does not do that. As you admit yourself, she doesnt do as much damage as talon, an actual assassin. and she clearly doesnt have an in-and-out kit.
Honestly, if you would even admit that talon does more damage, aka will do the assassin role mid better, why would you even pick MF mid ? and i dont believe your opponent are really good if they let them get caught by a roaming MF mid.
iamleburk1 votesNot MF, Quinn. The E-Q combo is near instant, she can roam from mid to bot in like 5 seconds with ult, and i like the execute to finish off with a good burst of damage. I guess assasinate isnt the best word, but her roams are killer imo
Risurin1 votesNot MF, Quinn. The E-Q combo is near instant, she can roam from mid to bot in like 5 seconds with ult, and i like the execute to finish off with a good burst of damage. I guess assasinate isnt the best word, but her roams are killer imo
oh pardon me then, i though it was about mf since i've not said much about quinn in this tread, and in the time of your reply i've just finishing talking about the weirdest that is MF's kit. But then again i think Quinn doesnt get much of an advantage in mid lane compared to top. Mid lane has various champion that can deal with ranged champions, much more then top usual pool of champion.
Furthermore, if you use the Tag Team [R] in advance to start roaming, yes you can get to places faster, but you are likely to waste it often, since you never know if your roam will result in anything (example: bot lane backing off, because they saw you cross a ward), but will always cost you your ultimate ability. Seem rather inefficient and borderline just trying to over force a champion to do something that other can simply do better with more convincing results.
I wont deny she can deal a lot of damage if played well, but i feel she is way too niche of a champion, and its just awkward that she, a marksman( or markswoman w/e), doesn't work best bot lane, the normally marksman/support lane, but rather top lane against certain champions.
iamleburk1 votesi agree she's niche, just saying its viable. and depending on where the ward is, they wont have time to back off because of how fast she is
Risurin1 votesi agree she's niche, just saying its viable. and depending on where the ward is, they wont have time to back off because of how fast she is
i guess, but then thats betting on how bad your opponent are at warding rather then how good the champion actually is. and i think there is a lot of bot lanes that could either escape, or even turn around (if they are pushed enough so that a standard river or tri ward doesnt see you in time, likely your botlane isnt in a position to do much and you are jumping in a 2v1), so even then it seem like not that great.
Ser Garland3 votesThey are played every games, why would they be useless?
by the way, those changes don't nerf them their strength remain the same, it just gives us the chance to play mele bot
They're played in every game but serve only for the purposes you just listed. If those go live, it would defeat the purpose of even playing marksmen.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesthe purpose of a marksmen is the same of the purpose of a melee adc, currently melee adc can't be played all i do is proposing items which allows melee adc to be played without nerfing ADC and let them be played
Gregor Gysi5 votesthe purpose of a marksmen is the same of the purpose of a melee adc, currently melee adc can't be played all i do is proposing items which allows melee adc to be played without nerfing ADC and let them be played
Melee ADC can be played atm - but not so well in the bottom lane. Ranged ADC can't be played in the jungle - what are you gonna do about it? I propose an Item like Devourer that gives bonus to jungling AD carries? You don't like that change? Then
basically you're the "i don't want changes" guy
Do you even understand why there are AD carries? They are the ones that take the enemies tower while staying (somewhat) safe and doing damage to the enemy frontline while building full glass-canon - being ranged helps there. All the melee ADCs have certain tools to compensate that in terms of strength, however they can't take their role - because they are not ranged. There is no need to push melee ADCs in the botlane - they are already viable somewhere (usually in the toplane/jgl). And if some of them aren't then thats not the problem of the ranged ADs.
Also stop acting like the ranged AD's are dominating top/midlane. Quinn/Vayne rarely visit toplane with very little success and Varus is played as an AD caster in midlane. Currently AD carries are weaker than they used to be, which is why picking assassins is not that high of a priority. This is also the reason for the armor nerfs next patch (I don't like them aswell, they should just revert some Nerfs like the IE nerf).
Keep in mind that I absolutely hate ADC as a role, can't play it for my life and don't have any motivation to be biased towards them. I currently play mainly tanks (Maokai, Gnar and just started Tahm - with who I won vs Vayne top, lol). The time when the Rangeds like Kayle, Lulu, Quinn and Kennen dominated Top are over. Jungle is pretty much Melee only, Mid is mixed, more ranged though, support the same. The issue you want to fix is not there.
KONO RUBICK DA1 votesyou're not responsing to the problem
it's not about the fact that melee ADC can't be played, it's that ranged ADC will be picked 100%, and that's the problem Riot hates when something is picked all the time, they are mendatory and those items will give make us able to play without them
BUT,being able playing without them =/= will never play with them, those changes don't nerf them and they will still be able to complete the role you described, we will just be able to decide if we want to play them or not
kirbyzama5 votesBUT,being able playing without them =/= will never play with them, those changes don't nerf them and they will still be able to complete the role you described, we will just be able to decide if we want to play them or not
If there were alternatives to a marksmen for a marksmen's job then no one would pick a marksmen at least to compete seriously. Sure there would still be mains, but the core problem is if a tank or mage did seiging, tower taking, and dps as well as an adc then they are superior because most mages and tankes also bring utility. Sivir is such a contested pick because she does the same job as every other adc with less risk and more utility.
Also you CAN play without an adc. You can stomp early game with champs like Pantheon with a support like leona and end the game with a snowball. Lots of strategies are viable in normals and even soloQ. The problem and the "meta" is in the mindset of the players. Players define the botlane as adc/support so being "forced" to play them is based on the people you play with who themselves are influenced things like lcs. Sure if adc's were all of a sudden aweful the pros would shift the meta but that won't change from a few item changes. As long as the pro scene is around the meta will exist in the same way positions exist in baseball or basketball.
TheRainInSpain1 votesActually people have shown that Teemo, Vayne, Kennen, and Twitch are viable junglers. The issue is still the same as why you do not see anything other than Marksman+Support bot lanes. The safety and level of experience needed is far weaker than if you played the normal strategy.
Kennen and Vayne can play on their On-Hit builds (Sated Devour) to stun (plus some magic damage) or true damage things to death. Teemo has his blind and magic damage poison. Plus all the stupid landmine mushrooms. And Twitch still has his stealth for ganking purposes.
The issue is that even with a team built around these strategies, a random Lee Sin or Xin Zhao or Jarvan IV jungle can ruin their day.
Gregor Gysi1 votesActually people have shown that Teemo, Vayne, Kennen, and Twitch are viable junglers. The issue is still the same as why you do not see anything other than Marksman+Support bot lanes. The safety and level of experience needed is far weaker than if you played the normal strategy.
Kennen and Vayne can play on their On-Hit builds (Sated Devour) to stun (plus some magic damage) or true damage things to death. Teemo has his blind and magic damage poison. Plus all the stupid landmine mushrooms. And Twitch still has his stealth for ganking purposes.
The issue is that even with a team built around these strategies, a random Lee Sin or Xin Zhao or Jarvan IV jungle can ruin their day.
If you think that Teemo is a viable jungler, then Yasuo, Fiora and Master Yi bot are viable aswell. Also funny how you want to link known facts with your thesis, even though there is no correlation. EG: 'Teemo has his blind and magic damage poison. Plus all the stupid landmine mushrooms.' - therefore he is able to be played in the jungle. Wat. Yasuo has his Passive, Q, W, E and Ult, therefore he is a good ADC.
TheRainInSpain1 votesViable jungle does not mean capable of doing everything well. Just like people playing specific ADC's in the bot lane. Why do people pick Kog'Maw? Kog is immobile as fuck, so he's a bad ADC, right? Well, actually, Kog scales very hard and can deal harass damage from very far away. So he's a good ADC?
The concept behind Teemo jungle is nullifying the enemy AD jungler (useless against things like Diana and Fiddlesticks because they can use spells) and for additional map control pressure. Shrooms give small amounts of vision and deal damage when stepped on. The jungler is normally everywhere so Shrooms are more randomly placed. Does this make Teemo a S-rank jungler? No. Does this make him a useless jungler? Also no.
I also never said melee carries are NOT viable for bot lane. I've had games where there WAS a melee carry, he dominated, he snowballed, and we won. I was saying that the safety of picking an ADC in the jungle or a melee carry for the bot lane is a lot weaker than doing the "normal" strategy. A melee champion on average has 20% better stats than a ranged champion. So a ranged jungler needs either a special niche ability (Fiddle) or is going to have a harder time and be open for invades/counter jungling from the enemy. Melee carries are that: melee. A ranged carry is going to harass the melee guy most of the time out of lane. We saw this with Pre-nerf Teemo vs Darius (the time when his AA range was longer than Darius' pull). If Darius didn't flash pull Teemo and snowball heavily off that (easily telegraphed and open to Teemo's teammates coming in and ruining Darius' day), Teemo would win lane.
As for Yasuo, the problem with Yasuo is that while he is a viable jungler (all melee champions are viable junglers), his ganking is easily telegraphed (literally walking into lane without a non-flash gap closer), jungle camps are not minion wave size, which limits his early game mobility, and his sole point of CC is a charge up (think Kassadin E). He can jungle, he's just BETTER SUITED to being in a lane.
Yasuo is actually a very good melee ADC for bot lane. Fiora was and still can be a good one too. Master Yi is a lot trickier because he lacks passive damage reduction and is easily telegraphed when he wants to trade/go for a kill. I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm saying just about any other melee carry will have an easier, and probably safer, time in bot lane than Master Yi.
Relative safety is why the dominant strategy has always been the ADC+Support Bot Lane Meta.
Gregor Gysi1 votesViable jungle does not mean capable of doing everything well. Just like people playing specific ADC's in the bot lane. Why do people pick Kog'Maw? Kog is immobile as fuck, so he's a bad ADC, right? Well, actually, Kog scales very hard and can deal harass damage from very far away. So he's a good ADC?
I never claimed that. However I think that Teemo underperformes in the jungle - his kit makes him a weak jungle who has a bad early, bad ganks and on top of that a bad scaling. If that is enough to be viable by your standards then any Yasuo who somewhat underperformes for what you want an ADC to have (RANGE) is viable at bot - because he atleast somehow fits to the role.
{quoted} The concept behind Teemo jungle is nullifying the enemy AD jungler (useless against things like Diana and Fiddlesticks because they can use spells) and for additional map control pressure. Shrooms give small amounts of vision and deal damage when stepped on. The jungler is normally everywhere so Shrooms are more randomly placed. Does this make Teemo a S-rank jungler? No. Does this make him a useless jungler? Also no.
Too bad that his jungleclear is early pretty underwhelming (level disadvantage) and Lee Sin, Kha'Zix isolation Q kill him anyways, Master Yi post 6 and outscales him hard and.. Which AD Jungle is he supposed to counter? Even against Aatrox would need a lvl 2-3 invade as Teemo loses ways more health than Aatrox in the jungle, so that he could hardly invade (AKA Aatrox could invade). His shrooms also do hardly any damage as he buys early Devourer (I assume) and are thus just weaker than they are on lane Teemo. Teemo jungle is pretty much as bad as Teemo can be. Hell, even support Teemo is more useful, seeing how their AD is aa-based. No champion is useless anywhere. But Teemo is such an underwhelming Jungler that it is hilarious to state that Teemo Jungle is viable on the one side, while also complaining about Yasuo Bot being not viable. Yasuo ADC is godlike when compared to Teemo jungle.
I also never said melee carries are NOT viable for bot lane. I've had games where there WAS a melee carry, he dominated, he snowballed, and we won. I was saying that the safety of picking an ADC in the jungle or a melee carry for the bot lane is a lot weaker than doing the "normal" strategy. A melee champion on average has 20% better stats than a ranged champion. So a ranged jungler needs either a special niche ability (Fiddle) or is going to have a harder time and be open for invades/counter jungling from the enemy. Melee carries are that: melee. A ranged carry is going to harass the melee guy most of the time out of lane. We saw this with Pre-nerf Teemo vs Darius (the time when his AA range was longer than Darius' pull). If Darius didn't flash pull Teemo and snowball heavily off that (easily telegraphed and open to Teemo's teammates coming in and ruining Darius' day), Teemo would win lane.
Same thing for Teemo. The point when a champion is viable is somewhat subjective, you seem to think that anything that doesn't automatically isn't afk once you pick it is viable, which is ok by me. Also the whole point of this thread is that OP stated that Melee's are not viable. Seeing how you disagreed with me I just assumed that you'd agree with him.
Balance issues aside: is there any ranged that bullies all the Melees? Do we have such a huge missbalance between Melee and ranged?
As for Yasuo, the problem with Yasuo is that while he is a viable jungler (all melee champions are viable junglers), his ganking is easily telegraphed (literally walking into lane without a non-flash gap closer), jungle camps are not minion wave size, which limits his early game mobility, and his sole point of CC is a charge up (think Kassadin E). He can jungle, he's just BETTER SUITED to being in a lane.
Exactly the same with Teemo, however Yasuos ganks are better. But why are we talking about Yasuo Jungle?
Relative safety is why the dominant strategy has always been the ADC+Support Bot Lane Meta.
So? Better stats and CC is the reason why most Junglers are Melee. Most Toplaner atm are Melee. Loads of Melee Midlaners were so strong that they needed to be rebalanced. Most of the currently viable Supports are Melee. What's your point? Do we have to overhaul anything? Also there is a practical aspect I want to mention: When you play soloQ you play with teammembers who don't know you. Imagine everyone would play something different. How are you supposed to lane with someone? Supporting a Nautilus is completely different than supporting a ranged ADC. Especially Duolanes are a place where META is extremely useful.
TheRainInSpain1 votesNo, nothing actually needs to be overhauled. People are free to bring a melee carry to the bot lane. People are free to have a ranged jungler. But in the overall scheme, it looks a bit odd that for the game where you're not punished and are subtly encouraged by the administration to come up with new strategies, that everyone picks this one specific loadout and harasses you if you don't agree with them.
TheRainInSpain2 votesNot every game, but the basic meta has ALWAYS featured a Marksman in that bot lane and with someone who does not grab CS and sacrifices their life to babysit that particular Marksman. Everything else is a break in this meta. I don't care if LeBlanc is 40/0. She's not grabbing towers.
The Marksman represents the safest meta. That's why it's always been the meta.
Risurin5 votesThey are played every games, why would they be useless?
by the way, those changes don't nerf them their strength remain the same, it just gives us the chance to play mele bot
lets say there is a meta where adc arent the best at killing objectives anymore : What is the point of even picking one ? What is the reasoning behind picking one at all? Why do you even want to undirectly nerf ADC further ? Marksmen are literally weaker then everything else on the map until 5-6 items, and in the meanwhile nearly any champion will out pressure/outdamage them, and/or have play-making kits. If teams can also get objectives easily and safely without the need of a marksman, then the role becomes obsolete, unplayable and weaken your winning conditions overall if you pick one.
I understand some people dont like the role(playing as it, or against it), but there is many that does, and i think its unfair to make 20-ish champions unplayable. Unlike other roles, bot lane is the only lane where most of them can find any success and if anything, adc are currently at their weakest point. Heck, even some pro hinted that if the trend of nerfing ADCs without compensation continues, they might end up not picking them anymore because the risks wont be worth the reward anymore.
Will having new items can be fun. I dont think they are needed or even good for the summoner's rift's balance.
Edit : I also read there and there that you dont seem to understand that if adc arent the best at doing what they are supposed to do, or are too weak (too risky/too slow to get to the point where they need to be to do what they are supposed to do), then they are almost pointless, and even mean that you are lowering chance of winning for your own team.
Let me be clear with it, If adc arent the best objective takers, and cant deal that much dps late game, then there is no point in picking a champion that will be worthless almost all game, and very likely to be juste feeding since everyone else is just that much stronger. You claim your suggestion doesnt nerf adc, and while its true it doesnt directly, it does indirectly to a point where they might just be troll picks.
making 20-ish champs troll pick status jsut so you can play yasuo, jax or w/e melee champ bot, isnt what i call a good change.
Lowvyr2 votesPlayed in every match In every meta All the time No matter what. And they're useless?
VDc0zCqe0w1 votesPlayed in every match In every meta All the time No matter what. And they're useless?
this argument is just bullshit honestly
yeah you need them else you can't take towers/push, but trust me it's not fun to get buttfucked by a random Irelia-Ahri-Gnar-whatever with barely anything you can do on your own unless you got 5-6 items (or unless you're playing BS Vayne)
I'd love to play quinn bot, but having an ultimate that make you melee, just doesnt feel right for an ADCs, whereas her kit seem to be made for solo lane atm.
tbh i don't honestly know what to play atm, i'm defaulting to comfort picks like Ashe-MF every game xD, i would like to play Sivir because i like her concept but i won't pick her if there is a Vayne on the other side (aka always)
Cait-Vayne are too mechanically intensive, maybe Varus? idk
Lowvyr2 votesSo you're saying you need them to push turrets for you. But they're useless.
VDc0zCqe0w1 votesSo you're saying you need them to push turrets for you. But they're useless.
they are useful if you want to win the game, but they aren't that useful to win the game themselves
AKA if your team sucks balls there's not much you can do as an ADC, while if you're a toplaner/midlaner/support you can still make plays and carry early-midgame then hope your team gets their shit togheter for mid-lategame
ever played as a fed non-Vayne ADC vs a fed Riven/Irelia/Gnar/Ahri/Viktor/etc....@ 15 minutes? there's not really much you can do except hope they fuck up
if you can play Yasuo bot and still push towers, then what's the point of picking a ranged carry? Yasuo can actually duel those guys @15 minutes if he's fed (well, maybe not Riven)
Lowvyr1 votesSo you need them to help win you the game. But they're useless.
VDc0zCqe0w1 votesSo you need them to help win you the game. But they're useless.
holy shit bro you're dense, read my post again please
what's the point of picking a ranged ADC if Yasuo could push towers the same way they can right now?
Lowvyr1 votesBecause Yasuo isn't ranged. Part of the idea of an ADC is that they sacrifice utility and defense for pure damage. The only reason Yasuo can duel most of the people you mentioned in that post is because he's melee so he gets more defenses on average to compensate, while an ADC doesn't. Yasuo also gets double crit chance and that fucking bullshit shield passive. He is built to be able to duel ADCs. That was literally the idea of him is that he was melee carry that can fight ADCs.
I love getting under your skin lmao It's so easy
KONO RUBICK DA1 votes[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=apZv107V,comment-id=0000000200000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-02T17:37:45.909+0000)
holy shit bro you're dense, read my post again please
what's the point of picking a ranged ADC if Yasuo could push towers the same way they can right now?
then don't let yasuo push towers the same way they can?
PokladnicaZla4 votesMost of those item would be really sick and fun to have,but let's be real they would need serious tweaking
gubigubi4 votesWe are in an ADC meta?
Halo4 votesWe dota now?
lolipopevelynn3 votesi love how these boards bitch about too many mobility champions being able to jump on a ADC, blow them up, and get out while at the same exact time you guys bitch about ADCs being to strong and those same mobility champions needing buffs.
id rather ADCs be strong than give mobility champs even more insane power through these overpowered items.
