Nidalee Nerfs on PBE: Overkill?

kcStranger··7 votes·1,482 views

The following is currently being tested on the PBE:

Nidalee Base HP reduced to 511 from 541 HP Growth reduced to 75 from 90 Primal Surge (Human E) cooldown increased to 16 seconds from 12 seconds.

Note that the reduction to base HP and HP growth means the reduction scales from 30 HP at level 1 to 300 at level 16. (I.e., it's pretty big. At level 18, the gold value of the health nerf is 800g.)

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Nidalee is at best slightly overpowered at doesn't merit this large of a nerf. Her solo queue win rates are roughly 49%/51%/52% in gold/platinum/diamond. (The final number is probably the most indicative of her true strength since a lot of people at lower levels are probably just playing her because she's perceived to be OP, but not mastering her.) In pro play, she's strong but just one pick among many, albeit the only mage jungler seeing a lot of play. She may seem oppressive because she's so popular, but I don't think such a large nerf is warranted. Moreover, I think that the lack of other top-tier mage junglers may be driving her popularity. It's possible I'm overreacting, but I think that having mage junglers in the meta is a good thing, and I think the solution should be to provide help to the mage junglers who are struggling, rather than breaking out the nerf bat on the only one who's succeeding.

One thing to bear in mind is that this is just a PBE change, so there's no guarantee it will get converted to live. Still, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this one because although it seems like too much to me, I've certainly misjudged balance changes in the past.

For the poll, the first and last options are for those of you who love/hate Nidalee and would rather see her OP/trashed than balanced. I haven't given an option that she should be buffed since I think it's pretty clear that's not the case; just pick the first option if you think this way.

28 Comments

SleepyLionCub6 votes

They arent even going to do anything. They need to nerf her damage, not her health.

kcStranger4 votes

Hmm, I wish I'd added an option "the nerf needs to be different." Not going to bother now, though.

X8ViEhkPS03 votes

I'd honestly like if they just removed the hunt neutral monsters mechanic and see how things pan out from there.

Seriously the only change that gave her the ability to jungle like a god was because a balance member said, "Oh yeah this is pretty cool. Now she can do more cool things."

SwiftKitten882 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glitter Gem,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahwk1cA2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-30T22:11:03.199+0000)

I'd honestly like if they just removed the hunt neutral monsters mechanic and see how things pan out from there.

Seriously the only change that gave her the ability to jungle like a god was because a balance member said, "Oh yeah this is pretty cool. Now she can do more cool things."

i agree with this, dont nerf niddale's three other roles into oblivion to make her 4th just so she inst "strong" at the new one

IcyPepper3 votes

Kassadin

Sometimes the nerf hammer is not gentle.

Vi

Sometimes it is.

Veigar

They can break a champion.

Annie

Or just shift their power a little.

bad arcade kitty3 votes

she is already squishy as heck -_-

ProfDrDeath2 votes

There should be some buffs in this cycle to go along with that. She's not going to get both increased CD on her heal and less HP without compensation.

If those are the only changes, I predict a plummet to 40-45% winrate.


Not that it really matters. Nidalee can rot in hell for all I care.

CatSith1 votes

{quoted}

There should be some buffs in this cycle to go along with that. She's not going to get both increased CD on her heal and less HP without compensation.

If those are the only changes, I predict a plummet to 40-45% winrate.


Not that it really matters. Nidalee can rot in hell for all I care.

those nerfs are reasonable lol. its not destroying her power. its for counterplay, cant have best of both worlds bro

mtman3182 votes

I think the base stat nerfs are overkill. I don't mind the E nerf since she generally builds cdr anyway.

EDIT: I see the QQ downvoters are doing their work. I never said she couldn't use a nerf, I just said her health nerfs are overkill (especially combined with the E nerf). She was already squishy before this. If Riot was going to nerf anything, it should have been her mana costs on her spears.

kcStranger3 votes

QQ downvoters indeed. My original title for this post was "Nidalee Nerfs on PBE Are Overkill," but I decided to change to the current title because I was attempting to create a more open discussion and avoid some of the QQ downvoting. Turns out that even suggesting that the nerfs might be misguided brings the hate out in force XD

As I think more about this, I think the thing that makes Nidalee feel oppressive to play against is the damage bonus on max-range spears. 3x damage is actually pretty insane tbh. But if you nerfed that by very much (e.g., reduced it to 2x), you'd have to buff something else (to wit: buff her damage somewhere else, not just cooldowns and such) to compensate. It would probably be a bit tricky to balance.

Retillin2 votes

Here's the thing, most Nid's in the jungle rush either Tear or Rod of Ages. This totally counters the "nerf" to her mana. So depending on how well she did in the first 8-10 mins she can recall and get one of them (catalyst/tear). So at BEST this is a nerf for her first 6-8 mins of game play, and a small one at that.

kcStranger2 votes

I'd make just one amendment...the fact that she has to buy tear to offset the mana nerf is a notable tradeoff. In the early game, you spend 720 gold on an item that just gives mana. It doesn't "counter" the nerf, just makes it less painful. (I know it upgrades to a good late-game item, but you still lose early presence.)

Retillin1 votes

That's the thing though, she already gets it... So her game play doesn't change but for the tiniest bit.

kcStranger1 votes

OK, I don't play Nidalee and didn't realize that. I guess I'd be inclined to agree with you in that case.

Mirage Seraph2 votes

Looking forward to the nerfs myself. Fine, fine, she can do tons of damage. Fine, fine, she has a mana-less escape/gapcloser with a stupidly low CD, as well as mana-less execute. ... On a MANA champion, by the way.

If these health related nerfs goes through it means she can't just go in because somebody has hunted on them and expect to get out alive 100% of the time. Now she can actually die. As for the CD nerf on her heal, well, maybe now I can actually win trades against her in top lane instead of getting chunked for 70% of my health and 70% of her health, but oh wait she has a full hp button on a 12 second CD! Now maybe the CD on it will be large enough that she isn't just a Ranged AP Tryndamere from last year.

I'm comfortable with the nerfs. Frankly I'd prefer them knock her damage but I can see the upside to sustain and HP nerfs as well.

In a perfect world, they'd nerf both and treat her like they treated Urgot for 2012-2014.

Skia Asteri2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mirage Seraph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahwk1cA2,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2015-03-30T23:12:21.987+0000)

Looking forward to the nerfs myself. Fine, fine, she can do tons of damage. Fine, fine, she has a mana-less escape/gapcloser with a stupidly low CD, as well as mana-less execute. ... On a MANA champion, by the way.

If these health related nerfs goes through it means she can't just go in because somebody has hunted on them and expect to get out alive 100% of the time. Now she can actually die. As for the CD nerf on her heal, well, maybe now I can actually win trades against her in top lane instead of getting chunked for 70% of my health and 70% of her health, but oh wait she has a full hp button on a 12 second CD! Now maybe the CD on it will be large enough that she isn't just a Ranged AP Tryndamere from last year.

I'm comfortable with the nerfs. Frankly I'd prefer them knock her damage but I can see the upside to sustain and HP nerfs as well.

In a perfect world, they'd nerf both and treat her like they treated Urgot for 2012-2014.

So you want her to poke with Javelin Toss all day and never go in? Putting an end to that was the point of her rework.

Mirage Seraph1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skia Asteri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ahwk1cA2,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-03-30T23:20:43.662+0000)

So you want her to poke with Javelin Toss all day and never go in? Putting an end to that was the point of her rework.

Oi now, you're putting words in my mouth.

I want her to be more like Kha'Zix when he isn't terribly weak or terribly strong. She needs to CHOOSE an OPPORTUNITY to go in. Not go in 1v5, kill the carry, and get out with 50% health and then heal to full hp in 12 seconds just because the game isn't being played at a diamond+ MMR.

Also doesn't help she has invisible spears every other week.

mtman3181 votes

Exactly. This nerf is not well thought out... (though most aren't it seems).

kcStranger1 votes

I made a follow-up post with my new thoughts after seeing people's feedback about this. Would be interested to see what you think: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dOb2k97E-nidalee-nerfs-on-the-pbe-do-not-address-the-real-problem

Antonok2 votes

It means that shes going to be relegated back to season 3 of sitting in back chucking spears.

Her already crappy early clears are going to take a hit, and her hunt is near useless now because she has even more reason not to jump in due to being able to be more easily blown up before she even reaches her target.

But this is Rito. They try to change all the wrong numbers.

kcStranger1 votes

I made a follow-up post with my new thoughts after seeing people's feedback about this. Would be interested to see what you think: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dOb2k97E-nidalee-nerfs-on-the-pbe-do-not-address-the-real-problem

Skia Asteri2 votes

Being reduced to third lowest HP at level 18 in the game is too much. It makes most of her kit useless.

kcStranger1 votes

I made a follow-up post with my new thoughts after seeing people's feedback about this. Would be interested to see what you think: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/dOb2k97E-nidalee-nerfs-on-the-pbe-do-not-address-the-real-problem

Lugg1 votes

Until they nerf the spear, Nid is going to be a broken champion.

DrathTurtle3141 votes

I HATE Nidalee, mostly because she will never get out of my jungle and let me farm to level 3(yes this is an exaggeration, and yes I am a horrible jungler), but I think you are making a good point about mage junglers. Additionally, I would like to see nidalee have either strong jungle clear or high kill pressure, but right now it feels like she has both.

I feel like before we gut the only thing working in a given pool, we need to expand that pool. When fiddles and elise, among others, start seeing play again, then we can put nidalee where she belongs(in the dumpster with kassadin).

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

Where the hell are all the Fiddlesticks junglers in LCS? Get Nid out of the picture, pls

PrinceArchie1 votes

To put it bluntly I do not see the difference between a lane nidalee and a jungle nidalee. Even if the nidalee is support it seems as if the highlight power of the champion is never diminished in anyway and only expressed in greater fashion in roles that allow her to generate more gold quickly. That highlight power being her execution: Spear into > cougar abilities. It seems that at all stages of the game she can not only zero out any target if given the opportunity to successfully execute this combo, she also has the added benefit of sustain with relatively low cooldowns. Nidalee is extremely strong and while I do not ban her dealing with her in game is anything but "simple".

Her presence alone warrants a balanced defensive build and to successfully mitigate that damage early would require a lot of MR. I think the nerfs hit nidalee players who have gotten comfortable into this routine of "chuck spear, cougar execute, pounce out,heal, repeat". Where their sustain after going in is hit and that danger a little higher with a lower base HP. In my honest opinion her pounce should be hit as well, given a slightly longer cooldown at earlier levels so she isnt the very well and refined all around champion.

Because that what Nidalee is, she's more than just a mage who can so happen to jungle, she can quite literately be played in any lane successfully and see no decrease in relative performance or role when going through those positions. Thats an oddly and uniquely powerful trait to have.

Martyrofsand1 votes

As long as she is in anyway playable in her current form then no she has not been nerfed enough. She is absurdly broken and needs a real rework, not this garbage crap riot tried to pass off as a rework that was in actuallity a buff.

More from Gameplay

More by kcStranger