There NEEDS to be some kind of counter to Akali's smokescreen

Düff McWhalen·Nov 27, 2019·21 votes·11,171 views

But you can't go back to her being countered by Pink Wards either. Akali is way too safe with that shroud but without it she's garbage. What's the solution?

80 Comments

makkiiNov 27, 201913 votes

[{quoted}](name=Düff McWhalen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=afqItML8,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-27T19:12:11.865+0000)

But you can't go back to her being countered by Pink Wards either. Akali is way too safe with that shroud but without it she's garbage. What's the solution?

shrouds only an issue because of the rest of her kit being cancer.

Imo lower the base damage on q so that she actually has to melee you for damage, get rid of the second activation on E and remove the move speed off shroud and she will be fine.

RagnaveilNov 27, 20196 votes

Also lower her passive range. Currently it doubles her attack range.

SpongebobIsLifeNov 27, 201912 votes

holy crap, you guys are trying to actually obliterate the champion, and the fact that you got upvoted so much is sad .

No wonder riot stays away from boards.

makkiiNov 27, 20197 votes

{quoted}

holy crap, you guys are trying to actually obliterate the champion, and the fact that you got upvoted so much is sad .

No wonder riot stays away from boards.

She has way too much inherent mobility in her kit, i would have said to remove the move speed from her passive instead of shroud because its way more of a problem, but im fair and know she needs that to trade properly in lane. Her e already gets her out of bad situations and she already has a dash on her R and movespeed on passive, and shroud means she can literally sit untouched in a fight or a gank for extended periods, she really doesn't need an additional dashback on e or more movespeed in shroud. All these things mixed with zhonyas and flash make her way too hard to pin down. As for her Q, im of firm belief that abilities that have low cd’s and no mana cost should take a more backloaded approach where most of the damage comes from comboing with something else. It really doesnt make sense that her q does decent damage alone when she can literally spam it non stop.

KnightLakegaNov 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

She has way too much inherent mobility in her kit, i would have said to remove the move speed from her passive instead of shroud because its way more of a problem, but im fair and know she needs that to trade properly in lane. Her e already gets her out of bad situations and she already has a dash on her R and movespeed on passive, and shroud means she can literally sit untouched in a fight or a gank for extended periods, she really doesn't need an additional dashback on e or more movespeed in shroud. All these things mixed with zhonyas and flash make her way too hard to pin down. As for her Q, im of firm belief that abilities that have low cd’s and no mana cost should take a more backloaded approach where most of the damage comes from comboing with something else. It really doesnt make sense that her q does decent damage alone when she can literally spam it non stop.

Dude.. She has some mobility, not alot.. Zed has way more, Ekko, leblanc has like 9x her range on multiple skills..

Akali is extremely simple to know how to counter her.. Stay away from her shround, when she puts it down, back off. Fight her when her shroud is on cool down she's extremely vulnerable..

Her only mobility is in her E, literally 1 skill not counting her ult, which also has a 2 second cd between the second use.. She is so easy to pin down.. When you see her E you, wait fo r her to press it again and bind her half way in, she has to come straight at you..

She's extremely vulnerable, and extremely easy to pin down and blow up, unlike zed, ekko, leblanc, and a plethora of other champs...

Hell Shaco is 10x more difficult to peg down because he has true stealth and can travel anywhere, and he gets a clone to trick you easily to get away, with a built in blink on his stealth..

YOu want to talk about overloaded assassins that are too safe? Zed, Shaco, and leblanc need to be looked at before Akali gets touched.

makkiiNov 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Dude.. She has some mobility, not alot.. Zed has way more, Ekko, leblanc has like 9x her range on multiple skills..

Akali is extremely simple to know how to counter her.. Stay away from her shround, when she puts it down, back off. Fight her when her shroud is on cool down she's extremely vulnerable..

Her only mobility is in her E, literally 1 skill not counting her ult, which also has a 2 second cd between the second use.. She is so easy to pin down.. When you see her E you, wait fo r her to press it again and bind her half way in, she has to come straight at you..

She's extremely vulnerable, and extremely easy to pin down and blow up, unlike zed, ekko, leblanc, and a plethora of other champs...

Hell Shaco is 10x more difficult to peg down because he has true stealth and can travel anywhere, and he gets a clone to trick you easily to get away, with a built in blink on his stealth..

YOu want to talk about overloaded assassins that are too safe? Zed, Shaco, and leblanc need to be looked at before Akali gets touched.

you know you're being disingenuous, when you say akali has little mobility. yeah she has her e, which is a dash away and a dash back, she has her R, she has a massive speed boost on her passive, and a massive speed boost on her shroud, this is all discounting the slipperiness she gets on shroud. All that paired with the fact that she has enough inherent burst in her kit that she gets to run Fleet Footwork instead of electrocute unlike pretty much every other character that plays even remotely similar to her.

when you pair that with the fact that she has an EXTREMELY safe laning phase due to the fact of the aforementioned fleet footwork mixed with the fact that shes an AP scaling manaless champion which allows her to use doran's shield instead of ring.

theres really no way to defend the safety of playing akali or try to derail the idea that shes mobile, shes very mobile.

you're right that shes not the MOST mobile, but when she is as sufficiently mobile as she is, does it really make sense that she gets true stealth on top of it? no it fucking doesnt.

unlike other people here im not even suggesting they mess with the stealth on shroud, but her moblity on top of that makes her way too safe.

I3IameNov 28, 20192 votes

Tbh though, Diana's gonna stomp Akali if the changes go through. Imo, she already does. I don't think people are paying attention to the right champs if they're concerned about Akali. Akali has high survivability. Probably one of the best in my opinion. But surviving isn't always enough to win in a solo game. It's a trade off over taking a champ that can hard snowball. (ie: why take a champ that waits 150 seconds to have her double dash ult when diana's gonna have a double dash every 8s... -> survibability trade off for snowball).

KnightLakegaNov 28, 20193 votes

{quoted}

you know you're being disingenuous, when you say akali has little mobility. yeah she has her e, which is a dash away and a dash back, she has her R, she has a massive speed boost on her passive, and a massive speed boost on her shroud, this is all discounting the slipperiness she gets on shroud. All that paired with the fact that she has enough inherent burst in her kit that she gets to run Fleet Footwork instead of electrocute unlike pretty much every other character that plays even remotely similar to her.

when you pair that with the fact that she has an EXTREMELY safe laning phase due to the fact of the aforementioned fleet footwork mixed with the fact that shes an AP scaling manaless champion which allows her to use doran's shield instead of ring.

theres really no way to defend the safety of playing akali or try to derail the idea that shes mobile, shes very mobile.

you're right that shes not the MOST mobile, but when she is as sufficiently mobile as she is, does it really make sense that she gets true stealth on top of it? no it fucking doesnt.

unlike other people here im not even suggesting they mess with the stealth on shroud, but her moblity on top of that makes her way too safe.

I'd agree if you took it in a vacuum like you want me too.. however, a vast majority of champs can easily counter her...

Her shroud is hella easy to dodge around, once she sets it, run away. GG. Then punish her severely for it...
The movement speed bonus isn't doing anything for her unless you let her abuse it. Even a weak slow not only nullifies it, but punishes her heavily... Most champs these days have some form of hard cc though.
She mostly faces champs with point and click AOE skills, or mages again with point and click and easy AOE, skillshots that even in the shroud can easily punish her, and you can keep poking her from a ways away...
Her only real mobility that makes any real difference (again if you're playing against her correctly), is her E, and ult...

And lets talk about her ult for a second, not only has it been nerfed a few times, it still has a asinine cool down on it.. Every champion she goes up against her ult is almost double the time of theirs (in some cases double or triple the time of theirs), and that's where a majority of her kill potential comes from.

Just because she can play safely, doesn't mean that = a winning lane, or even a winning game.. Not by a long shot.. Meanwhile, Zed, Yasuo, any mage, and quite honestly vast majority of any champs besides melee's can play even safer than akali...

I don't care what you or anyone else says, Akali is hands down the most balanced champ in the game.. Even against champions she's supposed to "counter" has multitude of ways to outplay her, and cancel her... No other champ in the game can claim this..

Champs Yasuo, zed, and other supposed "overloaded kits" literally crap all over the champs they counter and there's almost nothing those champs can do to stop them.. Meanwhile with Akali, if you know how to work around her kit, (which is easy), you almost naturally counter her ability to kill you..

Zed again for example.. requires you to buy zhonya's if you dont want to blow up in .5 seconds, and that's without him being fed.. Even if you "win lane" against him, you don't.. Because unlike Akali, he can poke you down with his shadows for free, and take cs that way with ease.

Zed is just one example but there are many of them.

I3IameNov 28, 20193 votes

If I was a Riot employee, I know I definitely wouldn't touch the board.

IP MasquerenaNov 27, 201910 votes

It's called a brain.

She uses it, you move out, she follows, has no defense, she doesn't, you get to pick on her when it ends, as she's made of wet tissue paper.

Hayaishi2Nov 27, 20198 votes

{quoted}

It's called a brain.

She uses it, you move out, she follows, has no defense, she doesn't, you get to pick on her when it ends, as she's made of wet tissue paper.

You try to move out and die anyways because apart from shroud having no counterplay the rest of her kit isnt outplayable either.

KnightLakegaNov 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You try to move out and die anyways because apart from shroud having no counterplay the rest of her kit isnt outplayable either.

You wot ? lmao....

You know how to beat akali? stay close to her lol... She has to activate her passive by moving away from you then back at you. If you match her speed gg... she literally can't activate her passive where a majority of her damage comes from..

Even if she E's, wait for her to activate it again and get an easy as hell bind in as she comes tumbling straight at you, then wreck her day up...

She is literally the easiest champion of all assassins and bursters to counter, and you odn't even need to spend gold to do it, unlike ekko, zed, leblanc, etc. all which require 1000's of gold to counter them..

Hayaishi2Nov 28, 20194 votes

{quoted}

You wot ? lmao....

You know how to beat akali? stay close to her lol... She has to activate her passive by moving away from you then back at you. If you match her speed gg... she literally can't activate her passive where a majority of her damage comes from..

Even if she E's, wait for her to activate it again and get an easy as hell bind in as she comes tumbling straight at you, then wreck her day up...

She is literally the easiest champion of all assassins and bursters to counter, and you odn't even need to spend gold to do it, unlike ekko, zed, leblanc, etc. all which require 1000's of gold to counter them..

STAY CLOSE TO HER 4HEAD.

Ignore her Q 50% slow 4HEAD

Ignore her shroud 40% MS boost 4head

You are too delusional lmao.

HEY GUYS JUST STAY CLOSE AND WRECK HER! ITS TO EASY CHALLENGER PLAYERS CAN'T THINK OF IT 4HEAD

IP MasquerenaNov 28, 20192 votes

I did actually, I even made a thread showing every Akali I laned against for the last 2 months (at the time), with the in-game timers when she died to me.

You know what I was told? "Just because you know how to play against her doesn't mean everyone should be forced to learn as well".

Her Q does have a slow, only at the tip of the AoE, so if you're close to her, as the other guy said, it can't slow.

Maybe, just maybe, learn how her skills work?

Darkdemon653Nov 27, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Düff McWhalen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=afqItML8,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-11-27T19:12:11.865+0000)

But you can't go back to her being countered by Pink Wards either.

Pink wards should indeed see inside her Shroud.

KnightLakegaNov 28, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Pink wards should indeed see inside her Shroud.

No.

Sucked that Akali always had a cheap 1 item that utterly made her worthless all game.

Yout hink I should be able to buy a 200g item that hard counters a champion? What stuff you s mokin that's that strong?

ShahamutNov 28, 20191 votes

item 3140 Skarner

KnightLakegaNov 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

That doesn't literally counter everything about him and make him die in .2 seconds does it...

Akali is so squishy she needs the shroud, that's why she's so squishy... It's also why Tank akali became a thing before her rework.. The shroud was so utterly useless, they had to build full tank just to survive and do damage...

Yet this is ok, but apparently hourglass can't counter Darius's ult, because he just gets it back again to kill you after hourglass... It used to counter his ult (which btw is half the cd of akali's ult), but they made the change so darius just gets his ult back if it doesn't go through.. Meanwhile.. Akali's only way to fight is countered hardcore with no care in the world...

FrancisMuniNov 29, 20191 votes

That doesn't literally counter everything about him

Skarner is currently a CC ult bot.
QSS eliminates CC.

1+2= Therefore, QSS counters literally everything that makes him useful.

In comparison, Akali has 4 dashes and passive ms; and she can burst a carry with half rotation. Why the fuck does a champion like that need a stealth? Keep in mind, winning a 1 v1 against a Juggernaut in late game isn't a valid answer. She is an assasin, she SHOULDN'T be able to have 1/3 as many good matchups in toplane as she has now. If an assasin (a class that specializes in destroying squishies) is holding her own in a line where 90% people isn't squishy, there is something REALLY wrong. It's the equivalent of a hypercarry beating a Renekton at level 3.

I3IameNov 30, 20192 votes

Dude, akali does not have stealth she is the stealth. She's a ninja with a smoke bomb.

Also, there are a lot of hypercarries that beat Renekton at level 3. Yasuo for instance. Idk. Feels normal to me.

The thigh guyNov 27, 20195 votes

Stealth shouldn’t be a mechanic at all. There is no counterplay to “haha you can’t see me but I can still see you!”

toby mcteagueNov 27, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=afqItML8,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-27T20:55:34.535+0000)

Stealth shouldn’t be a mechanic at all. There is no counterplay to “haha you can’t see me but I can still see you!”

In that case, lets make every autoattack a skillshot. Theres no counterplay to ha, you cant dodge these bananas! Soraka

Garson211Nov 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

In that case, lets make every autoattack a skillshot. Theres no counterplay to ha, you cant dodge these bananas!

And tbh this is could be good change, so tanks can block damage as a front lane but there is left problem of lasthiting minions

I3IameNov 28, 20191 votes

Idk why you're complaining about her Shroud. The broken thing on her kit isn't the shroud, as you can just walk away when she uses it, since it's an aoe shroud, not a shroud that actually follows her, which is why unlike other invis mechanics, it actually IS something that you can counter. By right clicking away from the freaking shroud. Twitch or evelynn's invis have a much shorter cooldown and apply on the champion, which is 10x more broken than a zone invis, which is why they get revealed by control wards.

Both are different invis mechanics, and it actually makes sense for it to be countered differently. You can't just let a champ who has aoe invis get countered by someone just buying a pink ward. How easy do people want this game to be?

PS, the only broken thing about her kit isn't her shroud, it's her ult. Whenever she has her ult, she has a kill if played well, basically. Now that, however, is broken.

IP MasquerenaNov 28, 20192 votes

Regarding the ult, that goes for stuff like Zed or Talon as well, but their ults are on a waaaaay shorter cooldown, and unlike her, they can afford to take Ultimate Hunter, while due to how weak her early game is (assuming the player against her has an idea how to play against her), she needs Ravenous for the extra sustain, so.....

Tim From WorkNov 29, 20191 votes

I feel like you’re severely underestimating the power her shroud has in teamfights

I3IameNov 30, 20191 votes

I don't. I think her shroud is really strong. But her ult gives her a guaranteed kill. So I'm surprised people are complaining about a shroud that can be countered by walking away when her getting a free kill every R seems to be ok.

Actually, some of the best shrouds are used when she has her ult, since she's able to get behind someone and shroud on their escape route.

I really can't stress enough how weird it is to complain about a spell that one can just walk away from. I've played akali for 2 whole seasons (totaled 650k on her). Whenever I end up playing against an akali, I don't get fucked by her shroud. I get fucked by her ult. But idk.

Tim From WorkNov 30, 20192 votes

In a 5v5 Akali shroud in your back line is far superior to anything any other assassin can do, you can’t ignore the Akali cause she will kill one of your carries but you also can’t ignore the other 4 champions on the other team but you can’t really do anything to stop the Akali, I agree her ult is super powerful but her shroud gives her so much flexibility in situations most assassins couldn’t function in, its a lot harder to just walk away from a 5v5 then a 1v1 and Akali can likely kill you without using shroud In a 1v1, the power is in how she is allowed to position in fights unlike any other champion that’s what frustrates me about her shroud

I3IameDec 2, 20192 votes

To each their opinion. I've never had a super hard time vs akali. Even less in teamfights, since she can get CC chained and 1 shot if your team sends their shit on her. I have a much harder time defending my carry against stuff like Zed / Katarina / Leblanc who I feel have shit tons of burst and have blinks instead of dashes. Even a good Zoe sometimes seems impossible to stop. Idk. To each their own really. I probably just play well against her because I have 650k on her.

XhaidenNov 27, 20194 votes

Akali's whole kit makes her an evasive assassin capable of spamming multiple abilities in a short interval. Paired with items like item 3146 - she gets extra sustainability and an extra ability to combine with her spamming kit. Thus, the high damage and the main cringe side of this champ (especially if there's lots of paper units in enemy team).

The lack of visibility - while hiding in smokescreen - does help her a bit at being more evasive - yet, in the same time - that can also work against her (that's actually what works as a counter vs Akaly). As in - units with AOE damage. Be it APC units like: Cassiopeia, Malzahar, Annie and so on... or tanky units like Olaf, Kled, Diana, Rumble, Morde, Galio and so on... Against this champions - Akali uses the smokescreen only to run or engage faster - cause the times she tries to hide is like an invitation for the enemy to do free damage on her.

Akali is usually bad news - for players who play/main only 3 or 5 champions - which she happens to counter.

toby mcteagueNov 27, 20193 votes

Buy a sweeper. You can track her movements every second.

This applies to every champ with invisibility. Use it when you are fighting her. Of course, it doesnt reveal them for you to autoattack or use targeted spells, but it does let you throw skillshots if you have good reaction time to the red frames.

ShahamutNov 27, 20193 votes

I would simply like a .5 second delay before she gets to be invis...

She walks up, Q/AA from range, then before you can auto, hits W, goes invis, and repeats step one...

KnightLakegaNov 28, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I would simply like a .5 second delay before she gets to be invis...

She walks up, Q/AA from range, then before you can auto, hits W, goes invis, and repeats step one...

SHe does.. the moment she does anything in her shroud there's a 1 second delay before she stealths again..

IP MasquerenaNov 28, 20191 votes

Which is funny because they want to buff her, then they would complain, when it's exactly what they want.

I mean, it's on a 1s delay, they want it at 0.5......what could go wrong?

ShahamutNov 28, 20191 votes

its instantaneous when she casts it. Im not talking about when she appears out of it. Im not already targeting her at that point...

FizzletopNov 28, 20193 votes

Her shroud is like a 20 second CD. when she walks up to you for the first part punish her. When she slips into shroud you either AOE or run away. Now you have a 20 second window to punish her for using shroud so casually.

KnightLakegaNov 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Her shroud is like a 20 second CD. when she walks up to you for the first part punish her. When she slips into shroud you either AOE or run away. Now you have a 20 second window to punish her for using shroud so casually.

Why is this downvoted.. seriously... Meanwhile zed you literally can't punish him, or counter him until you get zhonya's, and even then its a temporary band aid as his ult has a lower cd than hourglass.. and even if you push him away, he can either keep poking you, or taking minions with his clone for free.... literally nothing you can do to punish a zed, yet akali is the problem lol...

Pika FoxNov 28, 20193 votes

Walk away from her.

Place an AoE ontop of the shroud.

Use an in indiscriminant knockback to force her out, such as janna ult.

I3IameNov 28, 20193 votes

You could say the same about Olaf's R making him uncounterable.

The counter on Akali's Shroud is its cooldown. When she uses it, move out. It only works in a zone. Her kit forces her to hit and run, so she doesn't even have the possibility to really rush you, unless you fucked up in positioning. What you're asking for is to make the matchup against Akali easier, when there are already ways to outplay her.

ZaFishboneNov 28, 20192 votes

Old akali didn't have such a big issue because smokescreen had a much lower area and her Q and passive didn't give her an instant death radius. But of course, it was that version that was cancer and this version that is ok. At least if you ask all the new akali mains.

I3IameNov 28, 20192 votes

Old W gave you a blink. Idk why you'd want her to have an extra dash all of a sudden.

ZaFishboneNov 29, 20191 votes

I want her to have ALL her dashes back. because even with 3.5 dashes she was still more balanced than her current self.

Violet FieldsNov 28, 20192 votes

Kled LeeSin TwistedFate item 3364

TOKYO AKALINov 28, 20192 votes

You must be the type to walk into akali shroud and try to fight her when she uses it. Just walk away and force her to leave it or to back off, it’s not rocket science.

Boosted JG 4HeadNov 28, 20192 votes

Eh, that's the thing. The cooldown is long enough to make her strong when it's available, but weaker when she does not have it. It's called taking advantage of cooldowns and trading windows. If you get used to it, you can abuse her when her W is down.

PaffWasTakenNov 28, 20192 votes

The smoke screen is alright by itself. If you think about it, there's several champions in the game that you could give this exact ability, and yet they wouldn't use it as effectively as she does. So, what makes it so efficient on Akali specifically? To be honest, the whole "hit and run" theme of her kit is just so efficient that it becomes basically flaw-free as soon as you add stealth in it.

Nerfing her insane mobility by decreasing either of her 3 movement speed boosts would already make her shroud a lot more manageable, cutting both her escapability and her cheesy out of stealth poke attacks. She'd probably still be overpowered in certain situations, but that would be a solid start IMO.