So when is Conqueror getting removed?

Düff McWhalen·Jan 22, 2019·45 votes·15,476 views

Seriously though? It needs to go. Or at the very least remove the true damage on it. Make it magic damage so it can actually be countered with SOMETHING.

Edit: OR make it have a passive akin to Blade of Ruined King where the more max HP your target has you deal a % of it as magic/ad (which ever).

If the stated goal is to have a counter vs tanks, fine, but don't sit there and tell me it's not murdering everything in it's path. Tanks should ALSO have a way to mitigate it with a build, just like damage can buy any of the dozen items for ignoring defenses are for.

89 Comments

MagicFlyingLlamaJan 22, 201910 votes

Holy shit, a legitimate complaint, with a potential solution?

What are the boards coming to..

Sewer SideJan 23, 201910 votes

{quoted}

Holy shit, a legitimate complaint, with a potential solution?

What are the boards coming to..

But Conqueror is fine

Anime FizzJan 22, 201910 votes

When they gut aftershock and grasp.

Because if they remove conqueror and dont do that then its tanks in 4 out of 5 positions meta again.

Düff McWhalenJan 22, 201921 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-01-22T21:52:32.514+0000)

When they gut aftershock and grasp.

Because if they remove conqueror and dont do that then its tanks in 4 out of 5 positions meta again.

wtf are item 3036 item 3033 item 3153 item 3135 item 3151 item 1419 item 3147 item 3142 item 3071 MasterYi Varus Vayne for then?

It's like nobody knows about these or buys them but me...

SunDragonzJan 22, 201912 votes

Aftershock is dumb broken. Even in this damage meta, you are practically unkillable with Aftershock. If they remove Conqueror and don't gut Aftershock we have another tank meta.

Lil Homie bustaJan 22, 201910 votes

TBH Aftershock needs a nerf regardless.

Düff McWhalenJan 22, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lil Homie busta,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=0002000000010001,timestamp=2019-01-22T23:05:29.186+0000)

TBH Aftershock needs a nerf regardless.

except it DOESN'T.

Daddy AntsJan 23, 201911 votes

[{quoted}](name=Düff McWhalen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=00020000000100010000,timestamp=2019-01-22T23:17:46.780+0000)

except it DOESN'T.

Except it does.

It's so strong that Mages (a class UNINTENDED to use it) are using it.

Lissandra, Fiddlesticks, Ryze should NOT be using a Keystone designed for Tanks.

Daddy AntsJan 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Except it does.

It's so strong that Mages (a class UNINTENDED to use it) are using it.

Lissandra, Fiddlesticks, Ryze should NOT be using a Keystone designed for Tanks.

Carrying on from this post... I think the best course of action would be to special case Aftershock for ranged champions.

"Resistances granted are reduced by 70% for Ranged champions."

No squishy mage should be able to get 100 Armor and MR for using their low cooldown CC.

Fiddlesticks, Lissandra and Ryze are intended to be squishy...

Graves JG KEKW Jan 27, 20191 votes

then thresh would go to gaurdian and would be deleted when he goes into a 5 man to get a good r or e for some1 while their team is grabbing lantern

Tahminatrix Jan 23, 20198 votes

A tank being tanky for a few seconds , omg no its too op.

Either youre already cc`d while aftershock is up and wont do much to them anyway or you are focusing them for some off reason.

An amumu or malphite building full magic pen + full ap and taking aftershock is not tanking , its doing as much burst as possible and surviving, but in this case then yes, aftershock is alittle bit broken.

Aftershock offers tons of temporary flat resistances, this doesn't favor pure tanking at all.

Im on your side, you just don't know what side you`re on, aftershock is not in favor of a tank meta, it is the culmination of tanks wanting to not get bursted and riot only giving them flat resistances buffs that most champions can effectively abuse, its existence in its current form is a joke to tanks.

Mael JadeJan 23, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Aftershock is dumb broken. Even in this damage meta, you are practically unkillable with Aftershock. If they remove Conqueror and don't gut Aftershock we have another tank meta.

They just need to change aftershock to scale with your own armor/mr again and not "flat 100+". That way it would be a passive nerf to Galio, Lissandra so they might stop dominating solo queue and/or pro play and people cant abuse it for getting tankyness while building full damage.

The Bad TouchJan 23, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Aftershock is dumb broken. Even in this damage meta, you are practically unkillable with Aftershock. If they remove Conqueror and don't gut Aftershock we have another tank meta.

You mean a game where people do more than

qweqrqrqrewqrewqerweqrwqerwqqqrwe

Cause that's basically league at this point. Just spam your keys till people get hit by one cc.. and pop.

Anime FizzJan 22, 20195 votes

[{quoted}](name=Düff McWhalen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-22T21:57:07.653+0000)

wtf are for then?

It's like nobody knows about these or buys them but me...

None of that stopped the previous tank meta (when tanks dominated every position outside of adc), just saying.

iamthegoatofwarJan 23, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=000200000002,timestamp=2019-01-22T22:23:32.413+0000)

None of that stopped the previous tank meta (when tanks dominated every position outside of adc), just saying.

...Didn't they basically buff all those items though?

boricCentaur1Jan 22, 201912 votes

Umm you should never buy lethality to stop armor like lethality is for only the base protections and building armor is a counter too it.

AirKingNeoJan 23, 20194 votes

flat pen doesn't hurt tanks

last whisper items suck

no one builds liandyrs anymore. Morello is their best friend now

Attack speed junglers suck, so no one builds Bloodrazor. (Yes, Yi is fucking garbage.)

Varus has sucked for like 6 months now.

GigglesOJan 23, 20191 votes

I’d like to buy a Vayne please. Is it like buying a vowel?

SuffocateMeDaddyJan 23, 20194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Düff McWhalen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-22T21:57:07.653+0000)

wtf are for then?

It's like nobody knows about these or buys them but me...

Ok so I pick one of my favorite champions on top, Jax and I am gona for FUYCKING SURE BUILD LAST WHISPER LETHALITY OR BLACK CLEAVER. Only valid item in that list is Botrk. Wanna know whats funny about botrk? It existed before conqueror but NOONE PLAYED JAX FOR SOME FUCKING REASON. Okay lets change it up. I am gona pick Riven, I could go lethality and last whisper and black cleaver. You know whats funny about that thought? HER WIN RATE WAS LOWEST BEFORE CONQUEROR. Something doesnt seem right does it? Almost like all these tools available to kill tanks SIMPLY DIDNT FUCKING WORK. Either they are too expensive item 3153 compared to tank power spikes item 3068 , they do not complement champions kit properly item 3147 item 3035 , or champions kit cannot properly fucking use it Jax item 3071 . And pleaste tell me about rushing last whisper as top laner in meta where tank could stand under turret on level 6 for 15 seconds while jungler dicks you down. Please tell me about it.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 23, 20192 votes

Man look at all these bruiser items. Man i lvoe clever boards people upvoting such a comment.

Graves JG KEKW Jan 27, 20191 votes

Amumu Darius Kayn Warwick Kaisa item 3814

Shiroe OkazakiJan 31, 20192 votes

Play a bruiser and go those items. You litterally cannot touch tanks. What riot needs to do before removing it is make a pen item for bruisers. And also tell me how many non bruisers take the rune. (dont say yi or yas cause those are stupid champions with any runes)

SithesisLordJan 22, 201913 votes

its tanks in 4 out of 5 positions meta again.

That wasn´t a thing even before Conqueror.

Anime FizzJan 22, 20197 votes

{quoted}

That wasn´t a thing even before Conqueror.

I see you have bad memory, but yes it was.

For some time ppl were playing tanks top, tank mid, tank jungle and tank support, it wasant rare to see 6+ tanks per game in competitive, in fact THIS IS the reason conqueror was created.

SithesisLordJan 22, 201912 votes

Meta generally implies the most successful and most contested picks. Overall the best picks.

The only tank that back then was strong was Sion. And even then, he didn´t build or play like a tank. Comet/E-max/AP was the norm.

Maokai and even overbuffed Ornn weren´t contested or successful anywhere outside of pro play.

And Conqueror was created because bruiser mains didn´t like having to use their brains to win against tanks.

Tanks are always going to see play in competitive because they´re a class tailor made for competitive. Not even Challengers in SoloQ can efficiently follow up on a tank engage the way teams in competitive do.

ZardoJan 23, 20192 votes

Maokai and cho saw a lot of play. IDK if you'd consider mundo a tank, but he saw play. Poppy was played less than she is now(she's more of a counterpick to certain metas).

However, they weren't unbeatable. Most champs who took PtA at the time won extended all ins, darius still hard destroyed them, nasus still stacked well against them, fiora still destroyed them, etc. However, most people disliked the fact that tanks were super strong early lane and scale into teamfights while bruisers like jax started out weak and outscaled in the 1v1 rather than outscaling in teamfights.

SithesisLordJan 23, 20194 votes

Cho'Gath isn´t a tank.

Neither is Mundo.

It's not a matter of me considering them tanks or not. Riot doesn´t, therefore, they aren´t.

bruisers like jax started out weak and outscaled in the 1v1 rather than outscaling in teamfights.

Jax is a Skirmisher. Skirmishers are often weak in the early game, something Conqueror made null for almost that entire class. And they´re are made to duel people, so they´re not made to teamfight, but have tools to assist them in such.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 23, 20193 votes

Yeah just don't call them a tank if they are overpowered, easy. Just like how mages aren't overpowered and we make up new classes like "kite mage", "aftershock mage", "cc mage", "really magey mage".

But hey seju, zac, ornn, mao, alistar, braum, tahm, galio, sion, poppy aren't tanks and definitely didn't dominate s7 and s8.

It's all a huge conspiracy to keep tank mains from their well deserved elo for their superior skill.

Damn conq ruined everything.

SithesisLordJan 23, 20193 votes

Yeah just don't call them a tank if they are overpowered, easy.

No, i didn´t call Cho'Gath and Mundo tanks because THEY FACTUALLY AREN´T TANKS. One is a Specialist, the other is a Juggernaut.

Also, tanks weren´t dominating anything in SoloQ. Pro play is a different story because pro play is a different game.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 23, 20192 votes

DARIUS LITERALLY RIGHTCLICKED TO DEATH BY POPPY, ORNN, CHO.

How can u even claim darius and PTA champs won against them? Oh yeah you aren't a toplaner.

ZardoJan 23, 20193 votes

Except he wasn't. I played Darius at the time, you still won extended trades on him.

As to pta champs, yeah you had to play the trades smart, but you generally won extended all ins.

Mr Broken WingsJan 22, 20197 votes

conqueror is kinda the only viable choice for some champions. And its horrible earlygame. Its way too good lategame but too useless earlygame. Fervor of battle was too op though, the current rune design of concqueror isnt optimal but keeps some champions from being completly utter useless tier. Also tanks are in competetive like every season, we had like 3 seasons of maokai toplane permpick. Bruisers arent the ones crying imo, delusional tank mains are.

SithesisLordJan 22, 201912 votes

Also tanks are in competetive like every season

GASP Almost as if a class that is tailor made for competitive will be good in competitive.

Mr Broken WingsJan 23, 20196 votes

{quoted}

GASP Almost as if a class that is tailor made for competitive will be good in competitive.

Yeah tanks are the role that should pressure out all other melee champions from toplane forever in competetive. Thank god riot actually wants diversity and every role in competetive so we dont have boring tank meta every season. Sometimes its a good thing riot doesnt read these threads around here.

SithesisLordJan 23, 20195 votes

No, tanks are the role that have engages teams can efficiently follow up on. Not even SoloQ Challengers can follow up on an Ornn engage like a team in competitive does.

Also, tanks haven´t been pressuring any champions from toplane. They´re just a reliable pick in competitive, and a safe, but not powerful or contested pick in SoloQ until that abomination of game design named Conqueror showed up.

Mr Broken WingsJan 23, 20195 votes

{quoted}

No, tanks are the role that have engages teams can efficiently follow up on. Not even SoloQ Challengers can follow up on an Ornn engage like a team in competitive does.

Also, tanks haven´t been pressuring any champions from toplane. They´re just a reliable pick in competitive, and a safe, but not powerful or contested pick in SoloQ until that abomination of game design named Conqueror showed up.

Tank itemization is too strong. They made conqueror because bruisers were completly useless after the fervor of battle removal and black cleaver nerf. Tanks couldnt be touched at all by them till they released this mastery. It is and was a necessary evil because riot powercreeped tank items. Nerf overall tank items and conqueror can go, but you cant do that because damage on other roles would hit tanks harder and bring them in a horrible spot. So what do we do then? Yeah keep conqueror till we find a solution. One solution would be buffing black cleaver back. Next patch last whisper gets buffed again to its old glory, that might already do the trick to make conqueror not necessary anymore, lets see! I mean conqueror is not fun to use anyway, earlygame its garbage, lategame necessary because of itemization disbalance. And you people can hatecirclejerk all you want, riot actually sees the problem thats why conqueror isnt touched yet.

Tahminatrix Jan 23, 20193 votes

Cause riot can only make tanks with powerful aoe cc that requires coordination rather than an actual tank with weak single target cc and weak damage but carries by parrying and hard tanking in order to win a battle of attrition.

Atleast it sounds a lot better than making every "tank" into a flimsy generic (I HAVE ULT UP I GROUP AND ENGAGE NOW REEE)

GigglesOJan 23, 20191 votes

Juggernauts were supposed to be those soak tanks you just talked about. Too bad defense in general is shitty.

Tahminatrix Jan 23, 20191 votes

No, juggernauts are tanks that do damage and little cc, I want a tank that does little damage and little cc but is incredibly tanky, a tank that wins by dueling one person at a time, if they ignore him then he makes their lives alittle bit more difficult, very weak peal but still peal.

Anchorit WracajJan 23, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=IW6bcnfj,comment-id=000300000000000100000000,timestamp=2019-01-23T04:16:34.248+0000)

No, juggernauts are tanks that do damage and little cc, I want a tank that does little damage and little cc but is incredibly tanky, a tank that wins by dueling one person at a time, if they ignore him then he makes their lives alittle bit more difficult, very weak peal but still peal.

How are tanks going to peal for their ADC...when rengar/kha zix/kassadin/talon will 0.14 rekt the fk out of ur ADC? Tanks can't find space because of mobility+the damage is overwelming.So they would need some insane buffs to be viable in SoloQ again. Removing/Nerfing Conqueror wont bring back tanks.It will just make easier life for ADC to survive ConQ top lane abusers that are rekking ADCS in 1-2 second,while they're being tanky with titanic hydra/steraks. Top lane picks as they're right now,will remain same.There will be no spot for shen/cho gath/maokai/mundo. ConQ doesn't need a strict remove.Maybe lowering it to 10% true damage convert.

Tahminatrix Jan 23, 20192 votes

A pure tank wont exactly peal, they just do what they can (very little) to keep their team alive until the time comes for them to go out and start cleaning up / killing enemy champions who are retargeting on to them ( playing defensively until odds are in their favor after enemies exhaust their resources, the only way for a pure tank to function as a carry champ is to do exactly that, try to but not necessarily keep team alive or keep the group fight spread out and efficiently duel enemies by parrying and landing abilities.

GigglesOJan 23, 20191 votes

yea except riot removed those. You used to be able to build defense and do basically 0 damage while just eating away at the enemy with any champion. (defense might have actually been straight up stronger than offence at that time)

Riot and community claimed it took no skill because the tank was guaranteed to win the 1v1 100% of the time.

Tahminatrix Jan 23, 20192 votes

Building damage = you kill the tank`s teammates quicker and by the time they kill one person it will be 1v5, if entire enemy team builds tank then you just clear minion waves and do objectives since they will have no waveclear.

Tank winning 1v1 is kind of the point, youre balancing your build around how persistent you want to be (defense items) in order to invest into a more efficient fight, and how influential (damage items) you need to be in order to help your team and contribute quicker.

It quickly becomes a 10x more interactive matter when it comes to what items you should buy and what ratio you should have based on how fighting has been going and how the objectives are going down, are you getting plenty of objectives but afraid of enemy team as a frontliner? Defensive item. Are you being picked off last in a group fight while the enemy runs past you to kill your backline? Offensive item

Backliners still play an important role at being inherently good at clearing objectives and getting targets down faster than frontliners (either through single target damage or weak-medium aoe) and by extension assassins and supports are made to be still viable and then you have a full roster

GigglesOJan 23, 20191 votes

Except as we found out in easier seasons when the tank always wins 1v1 everyone just builds defensive tank items and then we just have super long fights and games.

We need the middle ground.

Tahminatrix Jan 24, 20191 votes

That's why we have backline champions who are able to speed up the fight and quickly take down objectives / your towers and inhibs, if ignored.

I agree we need a middle ground, its just determining where the middle ground is that is the problem.

AirKingNeoJan 23, 20192 votes

doesn't mean they should be.

SithesisLordJan 23, 201913 votes

So a class tailor-made for competitive shouldn´t be good in competitive?

Does tailor-made mean something else in 'murican english and everyone missed the memo?

AirKingNeoJan 23, 20191 votes

Let's put it this way. A gun is made to kill. Does that mean people should be killed?

You're confusing intent with how good is the practice. Tanks are intended to be good in competitive, but tanks in competitive are boring.

flibitydooJan 23, 20196 votes

that analogy doesn't match your response of "doesn't mean they should be." where "they" refers to classes that are designed to be good in competitive being good in competitive. To make your gun analogy match, it'd be "a gun is made to kill. Does that mean a gun should be able to kill?".

and competitive league isn't supposed to be a show where we care about excitement, it's about the best playing the best that they can. Is it boring when a boxer wins not by knocking out their opponent but by having more connected hits and stalling until the timer runs out? Yeah, but that's still the rules, and it's not meant to be a show, it's the best performing the best.

GayFluffyUnicornJan 23, 20194 votes

Lol. Except even when tanks existed you saw riven top played or jax or camille or whatever.

If only tanks are ever played it's not because they are "perfect for pro play" but straight overpowered.

Pro play picks EVERYTHING that is overpowered. Sometimes, yes it is their teamplay kit that makes them overpowered. Sometimes it's just them being overpowered like when leblanc is picked.

Riot forcing the 5v5 deathball meta upon us favors tanks more than others that is true so far but if you remember people tried to play conq renek toplane, conq renek toplane lost lane to a tank and became useless so you just stop playing bruisers cuz tanks are OVERPOWERED.