@CertainlyT/Riot. I hope you're happy about making Morde the new Cassiopeia

Malicious Metal··103 votes·5,371 views

((Disclaimer, this may be a bit too spiteful for some of you so proceed with caution. Sorry))

Seriously, it's the same pattern ALL OVER AGAIN

You took a champion with an established identity and dedicated player base and warped it into something only vaguely resembling their old self. Instead of expanding on their core themes (Master of Metal and Poison Mage respectively) you made them one trick ponies with gimpy abilities only to label them as "Fixed" and move on. They're debatably stronger, yes, but at what cost?

Cassio; DoT poison mage----------->Urgot 2.o with her QEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE combo "Unfair" advantage with her free detacap Increase in her already toxic (hue) bully play style and unhealthy gameplay patterns One trick pony due to her Machine gun nature OP on release only to be nerfed into a playable state while keeping her problematic aspects. Even starker weaknesses and strengths

Mordekaiser; Undead Overlord of Metal---------->Tag team buddy with ghastly fart effects Durable due to passive AR/MR W--------->Deceivingly tanky due to items AoE damage--------->single target annihilation Solo laner-------->Gimped ADC replacement bot Unfair XP passive and gimped Dragon clone Even less mobile (How is that even possible) Unhealthy Q mechanic; Hit it-> You win You don't?->Die miserably Nerfs to his unique and iconic features Lane bully nature still intact in duo lanes-----> 2 people get pissed off instead of one Op on release only to be nerfed into a sub par state. >Same old issues with the addition of gimmicky abilities all the while making him even more toxic

But everything's GREAT, isn't it? At least CertainlyT's lovechild Darius' having a blast, only having received positive changes and getting his identity even more cemented. Seriously I thought you had learned your lesson with what you did to poor Cass. Now Morde's bound to be....Hit It Nauti! Nautilus "Lost.....And forgotten..."

Hope you're sitting comfortable in your seat of pure gold if this entire mess could have been solved with only a little community feedback/interaction but you guys get paid either way. In the end these reworks should have been handled by designers who actually CARE about the champion's identity and themes and expand upon them and make them fit into league rather than make them these Gimped abominations....

//Rant//

146 Comments

BeMyFriendPlease34 votes

but But but.... it's "cool" and "unique" and wait for it.

"balanced"

Malicious Metal39 votes

Credit due where it's due; CertainlyT's got a lot of interesting and outlandish ideas which are really cool BUT are often unhealthy...

Ralanr4 votes

They don't always fit with league. But who knows? Maybe they will help propel league.

Dextix LT16 votes
  1. They NEVER fit with the league, it seems like he is creating champions for Dota 2.

  2. His contributions are the things that are holding back the league. Look at bard or tahm, this is how you make unique champs which are healthy for the game and make it go on. Then look at kalista and thresh, champs with no weaknesses.

WereScrib9 votes

I've got to object here. They are nothing like dota champions. Dota champions by and large have heavy piles of passives, a single core ability, an ultimate that does something that (usually) lines up with their core ability, and a supplementary ability that usually works with their core. Moreover, they tend to have blatant, blatant weaknesses.

I.E. Pudge:

  • Hook is his core, straight up. It grabs things and pulls them to you. Everything relies on his hook.
  • His Rot lets him do more damage, but mostly keep people from escaping from him in melee.
  • Flesh Heap quite simple makes him tankier, so he lives better as a relatively immobile melee.
  • His ult does...more damage and keeps them from getting away.

What are his advantages? He's a tanky monster that destroys people in melee. His weaknesses? If he misses his hook he's a fat melee blob and is mostly wasted.

Another example. Sniper's core ability is his passive. He makes people almost immobile while constantly doing greater and greater damage via auto attacking.

  • Shrapenel is: To do damage, shred damage, and keep enemies from getting near with its aoe slow. It keeps him safe and makes his headshot work easier.
  • Headshot is a passive that boosts his damage, and procs a theoretical permaslow. It keeps things from getting near while also dealing damage.
  • Take aim is a passive that increases his range. So he can avoid getting attacked even more.
  • HIs ultimate Shoots things at long range and makes them die. (complete with a ministun to help allies catch them)

His weaknesses? Things that ignore slows, are invisible, can get to him, can touch him. Anything that's near him, because he just dies. He's defenseless beyond range.

CertainlyT's champions tend to have....very few weaknesses but allot of...things going on. They tend to be champions without clear counters, but with instead ways of paying attention and hopefully playing around them.

Unfortunately my primary problem is playing around them grows more and more difficult in disorganized play. So they either need to be nerfed into being terribly weak, or they're going to be frustrating. Most gameplay is disorganized, and the fact is Yasuo, despite blatantly telegraphing everything he does, is for instance, very good at capitalizing on a single success. He's like the Old Nidalee. Nidalee could fail spears all day long, but a single spear that lands is the most unpleasant of things to happen imaginable. You know when Yasuo is going to use his whirlwind. You know when Yasuo's shield is up, you know when he's trying to fish for his ult. You know when he wants to windwall.

The problem is a single screwup can be absolutely crippling with Yasuo. He can absorb everything many champions have to damage him, he can disintegrate many squishy champions, even with low items, with a single landed whirlwind, and he can escape from things anyone else would die from simply due to his shield. He's incredibly annoying. He's Nidalee.

In theory, thresh is the same. (He's more reliable at base simply because he's a support, and all supports tend to have incredibly reliable team reset abilities. I.E. There is nothing anyone can do if Soraka wants to ultimate her team, no playing around it, no nothing. Janna WILL stop dives, and there's nothing you can do about that, etc.) But his hook? Blatantly telegraphed. His flay? It's very simple how he uses it. His lantern? Wonderful, but you can play around it, and it has a long cooldown. His ultimate? Melee range. The problem? His combo works perfectly together so a single hook will almost certainly mean he can land everything he wants, do a ton of damage, and his ADC can burst you. He's reliable and doesn't really effectively fail because it's so hard to actually do bad as him, because even without his hook, he has reliable protection and damage tools and free stats out the wazoo. He's Season 2 Alistar.

Keevalroy5 votes

"cool"

Debatable

"unique"

I suppose

"balanced"

...BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Saianna2 votes

That was heavy-class sarcasm :|

How could you've missed it?

Keevalroy1 votes

I understand it was sarcasm, I'm just speaking about reality here. I guess it wasn't wanted.

Saianna3 votes

Oh, more than it wasn't wanted, it just wasn't needed :)

Only Play Darius22 votes

Reworked Cassiopeia was not OP on release in the slightest. She was actually complete trash right after her rework, literally something like 32% winrate and it was a testament to how bad the rework was by design, so much of her power was loaded onto her gimmicky/unfair passive that she wouldn't be able to make use of many games because she lost early. They left her in that garbage state for a couple of months before they actually reworked (yes they had to rework a kit that they just remade a few patches before) her passive and twin fangs before she became useful.

She used to be a hard to play niche pick that admittedly was toxic to play against due to the nature of DOT and the lane bully playstyle, but they turned her into something that is still hard to play (and still a lane bully lol), but doesn't feel rewarding to use anymore because no matter how you cut it all you're doing is mashing E on people when you have 1400+ AP late game. You didn't necessarily work hard to get there, you just got a ridiculous powerspike by virtue of the game going on for long enough and now no one can really compete against you.

AtheosisX21 votes

You bring up some pretty good points I have to admit...

Ralanr1 votes

Where's that from?

Daedalus8711 votes

The Little Mermaid.

Ralanr1 votes

The sequel?

Daedalus8712 votes

They made a sequel?

Ralanr3 votes

This is Disney. They make sequels to big hits most of the time. Something about Ariel's human daughter.

Daedalus8712 votes

Dafuq.

And no, I'm pretty sure its from the original.

Ralanr2 votes

Can you check? The original had Ursula, and that don't look like a fat octopus lady.

I never thought I'd have this discussion on the league of legends forums XD.

Daedalus8714 votes

At some point, Ursula turns herself into a person and uses Ariel's voice to make the prince fall in love. But then the Prince realizes that he actually loves Ariel at some point.

But it's too late so Ariel becomes Ursula's servant for eternity, but the king is like "NNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOO!!!", and gives up is troll pole to free her. Etc, etc, they all live happily ever after, except for Ursula, who got plowed by a ship.

Jacknife17 votes

Sadly, they're going to give Mordekaiser the same treatment post-rework too. How can I guess? Because both of their reworks were unwarranted. They both only announced changes were happening when they were close to ready for PBE, and any feedback they wanted was to make sure that their ideas wouldn't break the game and look for bugs, not if what they have was actually good or not, that part was already damn cemented in their heads. No one wanted the Cass rework to go through, same with Morde. Not the fanbase, not the pros (I doubt they had an opinion one way or another), not the rest of the playerbase that has to play against their new "healthy" kits. Just Riot, and only Riot, thinking that any change they make will always be for the better.

Goodnight Nunu12 votes

Khazix Change is good! Yet Mordekaiser was an Old champion with established character and Identity and a dedicated Playerbase up to boot. Best course of action would have been to build on his core themes rather than make the same mistakes over and over and over again.

Jacknife2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hentaî Senpaî,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ae5accQt,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-09-22T20:26:20.115+0000)

Khazix Change is good! Yet Mordekaiser was an Old champion with established character and Identity and a dedicated Playerbase up to boot. Best course of action would have been to build on his core themes rather than make the same mistakes over and over and over again.

I was secretly hoping someone would throw a kha-zix reference in there. Upvote for you :)

Transgressor17 votes

item 3070 Kassadin item 3070 item 3070Cassiopeia item 3070 item 3070Zilean item 3070 item 3070Mordekaiser item 3070 item 3070Sona item 3070 item 3070Ryze item 3070

6/6 failure rate.

Soon to join? We'll have to wait and see!!

MealReadytoEat9 votes

{quoted}

item 3070 Kassadin item 3070 item 3070Cassiopeia item 3070 item 3070Zilean item 3070 item 3070Mordekaiser item 3070 item 3070Sona item 3070 item 3070Ryze item 3070

6/6 failure rate.

Soon to join? We'll have to wait and see!!

It goes something like this - We are reworking these champions to make them more fun and interesting (read gimmicky), and making them easier to balance!

OH CRAP PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY USING THE GIMMICKS! NERF IT TO OBLIVION!

mi ramfan2 votes

Well, I mean, if you leave out stuff like Sion (hugely successful), Xerath (fairly successful), Skarner (successful), and Fiora (I'd argue successful here as well), then Riot's reworks look terrible.

But that would go against your preplanned narrative, so let's just ignore everything good Riot's done and focus on the stuff they screw up.

Transgressor5 votes

One does not invalidate the other. And my "preplanned narative" does not sugar coat anything for the sake of fanboys.

Now, take a moment and look at how these reworks impacted the game. Ryze went full apeshit, Sona gutted and ruined just like Zilean. Kassadin got nerfed to oblivion and got his identity ruined twice to appease to crybabies. Cassiopeia and Mordekaiser got their cancerous aspects further highlighted instead of having their issues fixed and counterplay added.

On the other hand, Sion paved the way for future reworks, became a healthy bruiser/tank top and jungle. He got buffed, then nerfed, then tuned, then nerfed. He impacted the meta, he became a benchmark for lategame tankyness. But don't forget, for that to happen, the base had to be completely scrapped, and old Sion to be rendered invalid.

One side, filled with dumb unecessary, failed "reworks". The other, with a single isolated case of a good champion relaunch (since no other relaunch has been as good, we'll have to wait and see for the future). Do the math.

ZzEslIolZQ8 votes

No matter what happens after every Riot project they go mission accomplished then proceed to jerk off either on the forums or reddit with an AMA we took 2 armor off Fiora AMA.

Keevalroy2 votes

AMA we took 2 armor off Fiora AMA.

_This was truly such a great idea! Are you sure she won't be hurt too bad from such a massive hit? I mean her banrate has already dropped to 86.47%. Don't you think she'll need buffs? _

Slamurai Jack4 votes

They lowered her health per level by 12 as well. Don't pretend that isn't significant.

Keevalroy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ae5accQt,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-09-22T22:01:21.367+0000)

They lowered her health per level by 12 as well. Don't pretend that isn't significant.

Woooow, how significant. At level 18 she'll have 204 less heath. That makes so much of a difference when she builds double lifesteal and still does ludicrous amounts of damage.

Slamurai Jack6 votes

It also means that she'll have 72 less health at lvl 6, which is a big difference during an all in at top lane. That in combination with less armor means she is significantly squishier during the laning phase. Base Stat nerfs are enormously significant on melee only champs and Fiora is among them.

Keevalroy5 votes

Okay, that's all well and good, but they're doing the same exact thing they've done with Morde, Yas, Kalista, Ekko, Darius, Thresh, and Lee. They're doing everything they possibly can to avoid noticing the most obvious problem with the kit.

Morde: He doesn't belong in bot lane, why can't you guys accept that? He won't be balanced so long as he exists there. Revert the rework.

Yas: Resourceless spammer with no cooldowns and loaded with passives... We could address the crit passive that doesn't need to be there or the wind wall that no one likes, but nah, let's just keep nerfing the damage.

Kalista: The hop. The hop. The hop. The hop. The hop. The fucking hop. Stop trying to justify this ridiculous mistake of a passive and put the percent damage from her W onto the passive slot, then put a real cap on her Rend, give her normal autos with normal damage (90% lol...) and balance from there.

Ekko: He doesn't need 3 slows on top of what he already has. Seriously. He doesn't. Please, you're killing me.

Darius: Why does he heal? Really? Why? Take it away from him...

Thresh: Do I even have to explain this? There's too much shit in this kit to balance in order to make him balanced.

Lee: See Thresh, but his mobility is outrageous and incredibly frustrating to go against. Get rid of ward hopping, revert the ult buff, and balance him from there.

As for Fiora? She does way too much damage (specifically the true damage that they decided to slap onto this kit as well because they have no creativity) for having the ability to sustain that much with the heal on her ult, and the double lifesteal they always go in addition to the stun.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

The fact that you suggest removing Lee's ward hopping shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Your entire post reeks of ignorance of power budgets and design principles.

Keevalroy3 votes

How...in what way does me wanting to remove ward hopping (not JUST Lee's if you bothered to read it) prove I have no idea what I'm talking about? And I find it funny that the Yasuo defender points out supposed ignorance of power budgets and design principals when I speak against it. It's just funny is all, that's all I'm going to say about it.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

Anyone who suggests taking away Lee's ward hopping honestly just hates Lee Sin and wants to see him gutted. Got any other great balance suggestions? Maybe Vayne no longer does true damage. Or Yasuo no longer gets extra crit even though that's the only way he scales. Or removing Kalistas passive and nerfing rend at the same time. Face it, you just want to gut champions. You don't care about balance nor understand it.

Galewings7 votes

Let's not forget another one of the balance team's shining (and recurring) failures: Ryze

Transgressor3 votes

What do you mean? Ryze's piano recitals have never been so good!

"QWE-QWE-QWER-QWE-QWE"

Skill

sreggad4 votes

Why do so many people hate on morde right now? The times I've played with him I've seen my team's morde either do one of two things. Either build AP rushing a item 3078 and then fail hard due to being straight out damaged by the enemy adc. or they build AD wreck face because the enemy team doesn't realize to be wary of the third Q and get half their hp dropped.

Transgressor7 votes

He was cancer before, he's cancer now. The rework is a failure, that did nothing to help deal with Mordekaiser's inherent issues, and further highlighted what was cancerous about him.

EXACTLY like what happened to Cassiopeia, the only difference being, Cassiopeia was reworked with player feedback in mind, whereas Mordekaiser was just served on a plate.

Saianna17 votes

the only difference being, Cassiopeia was reworked with player feedback in mind

No.

NO.

NO.

Stashu did nothing what we wanted/asked/begged. We (most of us) wanted poison lady. He made her into E spam bot He didn't listen to even 1 word we said. Nothing All feedback we made was ignored. Everythig we said for better or worse was thrown into Trash. Just check Boards when Cassio was in middle of rework. I dare you.

So please, PLEASE, don't spread lies. Otherwise it'll become truth later.

Zantumall3 votes

Yes, because the three people who make the same forum thread every day accurately represent the wishes of the majority.

Saianna12 votes

Yeah and they also make 300 accounts just to upvote their threads. Dude c'mon..

And before you start with 300 upvotes vs few millions of players.. in this forum anything above 200 upvotes shows that players are concerned. It's pretty big number around here.

I've made maybe 2 Cass related threads. 1 was feedback, second rant. 2 Threads.. Some most likely made more, but in the end most of threads came from different people making your argument invalid.

WereScrib11 votes

Exactly. I was there for that. It was a constant joke. "Hey guys, I came back and looked at your feedback and its all very good... So I see you guys don't like E being the focus, that makes sense. SO instead of E being all her damage. How about he E now makes the DOT do extra damage that's reset and stacks each E, so its exactly like the E doing all the damage, except theoretically the big numbers are coming from her Q in the kill screen?"

"So I made her E now do extra things, this will help keep the focus away from her E."

"So I hear you talking about how Cassiopeia was a seductress DoT mage... but that's not true. Cassiopeia's central theme has always been ascension. That new thing, you know? Its always been there. Its obvious. Let's talk about how to make that core idea fit her kit. I think it involves her E and farming passive."

Cassio was remade into something annoying, with the same problems old Cassio had, and less of a true 'extreme lategame fantasy' then if they had just taken the old Cassio kit and fixed her e's CD reset. Period. The only person who really had their feedback listened to was a single Challenger player who enjoyed Cassio as a high damage carry. (Which is really what she was good at to begin with. That was always her lategame identity.) Oh, also they made her voice lame.

Morde at least has some kind of identity going on. Just a weird one, and he's getting patches. Cassio was left alone for months, they pretended they couldn't do anything with her for every reason in the book, every rework was obviously personal ideas with a few things taken from the community. (Her mana problems are really bad now, her mana sustain is too good now)

I don't hate Stashu, but I couldn't help but come away from that rework quitting League for well over a year. It was disgusting. Most of my friends just left the community for a while.

Transgressor1 votes

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

At least they spent time giving 1 or 2 fucks about what you have to say, whether ignored or not is a different story. Threads where made asking for opinions during the reworks(both of them) and during tuning/buffing/nerfing.

Want to know how many shits they gave for Kassadin, Sona, Mordekaiser and Zilean? NONE.

Saianna2 votes

Want to know how many shits they gave for Kassadin, Sona, Mordekaiser and Zilean? NONE.

I know that.. But it doesn't change fact that all those stuff like "give us your feedback on Cass" was BS. It was a lie. They didn't even try to open threads with feedback.

MrWasjig6 votes

If by "Served on a plate" you mean "Shat out with little regard for what anyone has to say" then yes, served on a plate.

Shosuko2 votes

Half their HP? That Q hits a might bit harder than that lol.

That's kinda the thing though - morde, who already has severe issues (not the "counter play" style but more like "something the re-work should have changed") with sticking to targets and getting kited, gets an ability that is MASSIVELY over powered that requires him to stick to his target and avoid getting kited...

This mechanic only works when someone else compensates, which is why he had to be forced bottom lane. I wonder which idea came first, making him 100% dependent on a team mate by having a jank q, or if they janked his q because they wanted him bot...

I think neither really sits well for the game.

Lintu Puck2 votes

Morde is still usuable, just takes adjustments. like any change does.

Dextix LT14 votes

Urgot is also usable, does that mean he is good? No, it doesnt.

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