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How Valuable Are Senna's Wraiths?

Elite4Runner··37 votes·16,148 views

**TLDR: 72.75 gold per wraith **

p.s. Lol people are correcting and expanding on my math now. That's perfectly fine, but my point was that she gets more than just 3 gold from wraiths. ... a lot more.

I posted this in someone else's question about why Senna got bonus gold per wraith. The answer to their question is that extra gold goes into purchasing marksman items, which are expensive. ... but this got me thinking about the gold value she gets from her passive, and this is what I came up with

Each wraith gives +1 AD, which is equal to 35 gold when compared to the cost of 1 Long Sword (+10 AD for 350g)

For every 20 wraiths, you get an additional 15% critical strike chance. Compared to 25% critical strike chance with a value of 800 gold, 20 stacks of Senna's passive gives an added value of 600 gold.

600 / 20 = 30g

Also, for every 20 wraiths, you gain +25 attack range.

Attack range is a difficult stat to give a gold value as there isn't a way to directly purchase it other than with Rapidfire Cannon, which doesn't give a range value on the lolwiki page. However, not accounting for the passive RFC is only 67% cost effective. So if the passive is considered to be the remainder of the gold value, it can be assumed that 35% of Senna's attack range is equal to 32.79% of RFC's total cost.

0.35 (600) = 210 range 0.3279 ( 2600g) = 852.4 gold

It takes 9 x 20 wraiths for Senna to exceed the range provided by RFC 180 = 225 range

So theoretically the gold value of RFC's passive can be divided by the number of wraiths needed to exceed the range to give the gold value of each wraith 854.2 / 9 = 94.9g per 20 wraiths 852.4 / 180 = 4.75g per wraith

So at a minimum, every wraith gives Senna 38 gold value (+3 flat gold +35 gold value of AD)

At 20 wraiths she gains an additional 600 (+15% critical strike chance) and 94.9 (+25 attack range) gold value on top of the 90 flat gold and 700 (+20 attack damage) gold value. That's 1454.9 gold per 20 wraiths.

If we were to just give her this value per stack and not work on the 20 wraith milestones, that's roughly 72.75 gold per wraith

87 Comments

nm101049 votes

And yet people still walk away from the two souls from dragon like it is nothing.

Velzard of Koz32 votes

Meanwhile there's me, the world is exploding around me, everyone screams in pain and I am just traveling across the known world collecting wraiths left and right like "They're mine... Mine! ALL OF THEM!!! MY PRECIOUSSSSSS..."

I played recently an ARAM game with Senna on my team and there were four Wraiths (probably one from champ, one from cannon, two by RNG) and we were pushing for a fight but she instead stopped to collect them and I though to myself: ,,It's okay girl... You take 'em all... I'm proud of you. Eat well and you'll grow to strong ADC one day."

Minimac20002 votes

[{quoted}](name=Velzard of Koz,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ad3P1rtQ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-12-16T18:08:40.977+0000)

Meanwhile there's me, the world is exploding around me, everyone screams in pain and I am just traveling across the known world collecting wraiths left and right like "They're mine... Mine! ALL OF THEM!!! MY PRECIOUSSSSSS..."

I played recently an ARAM game with Senna on my team and there were four Wraiths (probably one from champ, one from cannon, two by RNG) and we were pushing for a fight but she instead stopped to collect them and I though to myself: ,,It's okay girl... You take 'em all... I'm proud of you. Eat well and you'll grow to strong ADC one day."

On release senna had double stacking on aram too lol

Death by Glamour24 votes

It was stramge that the released senna with such potential income (gold and raw stats) from wraiths while at the same time cutting off other supports gold income with the mew items.

Elite4Runner4 votes

How do you believe the new items cut support gold? I feel like supports have more gold now. Not needing to spend 1400 gold on upgrading their support item means you can spend that gold on something else.

Starcraft243ver12 votes

{quoted}

How do you believe the new items cut support gold? I feel like supports have more gold now. Not needing to spend 1400 gold on upgrading their support item means you can spend that gold on something else.

Noone spent 1400 gold upgrading their support item. You just bough the first amelioration and never the 3rd which was a trap.

The problem now is if your adc spend its time with a black and white screen, you just can't farm the minions waves and get gold from them. (Well you can but you are wasting a lot of gold).

Elite4Runner3 votes

{quoted}

Noone spent 1400 gold upgrading their support item. You just bough the first amelioration and never the 3rd which was a trap.

Uh, yeah, people did ... it might not have been the best item, but the stats were 100% efficient without the passive or active.

The problem now is if your adc spend its time with a black and white screen, you just can't farm the minions waves and get gold from them. (Well you can but you are wasting a lot of gold).

Well, that's farm you wouldn't have got if your carry was alive. Them not being alive is hurting your team an anyways. Spellthief's Edge and Spectral Sickle can still proc without allies nearby. With the others you can go to a different lane or have your jungle come to lane

And if your carry is just useless sell the support item... but you're probably screwed either way being down a player

Tealtigers10 votes

{quoted}

Uh, yeah, people did ... it might not have been the best item, but the stats were 100% efficient without the passive or active.

Well, that's farm you wouldn't have got if your carry was alive. Them not being alive is hurting your team an anyways. Spellthief's Edge and Spectral Sickle can still proc without allies nearby. With the others you can go to a different lane or have your jungle come to lane

And if your carry is just useless sell the support item... but you're probably screwed either way being down a player

Alot of people do the math over and over again on reddit especially in the support mains subreddit and yes, you get WAY more gold while you are getting the gold income. Once you get the 3rd tier now the gold drops off a cliff and post about 15 minutes supports get way less gold.

I'm pretty sure above bronze/silver no one bought the third support item until it was the last item. I only ever saw thresh buy the third coin first item. I'm not high elo at all (gold) but I remember watching alot of guides by challenger/master or diamond players that didnt even consider the third tier in their guides and if they did it was to remind to buy it at full build.

Salty Mc Feed1 votes

Does it matter what people did with the gold? No, now you get free stats + gold on top.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Well, I would argue that it does matter what people did with the gold. If the support is able to invest in something that is more beneficial to their character, their playstyle, their matchup, their carry, ... even if they are just buying more control wards, .. the money that they are not investing into their support item early game is POTENTIALLY having a larger impact on their early game.

For example, I like to play Pantheon support. If I can spend 700 gold on my first back, last season I pretty much had to spend it on upgrading Relic Shield into Targon's Brace for 450 gold, and then I don't really have enough for anything but a control ward and some health potions, maybe a rejuv bead, .. Now I can buy two long swords, or a long sword, boots, and a health potion, or a ruby crystal and cloth armor, or boots, cloth armor, and a control ward ... I have better options now that are more likely to lead into an item that will benefit me later on.

This means I am able to reach my mid game strength sooner, which is more likely to benefit my team and I will actually out scale the support item instead of leveling off.

Yes, the support item itself will level off, but I should be able to perform better when it does.

Salty Mc Feed1 votes

I would argue that it does matter what people did with the gold.

Why? Because you like derailing your own discussion? This is absurd. Ofc it matters in general and for the specific match what players do with their gold , but not in THIS discussion where you just compare the income, here it shouldn't fucking matter.

1400 gold is 1400 gold. You could have bought a BF sword on Soraka with that gold for all I care.

Voluug131 votes

One issue is Senna/Pyke and some AP mages get much more from raw AP/AD that tank and enchanter supports, who have been always low scaling champions (or got their scaling kneecapped by nerfs, rip every enchanter not named Nami).

The removal of mana regen specially hit enchanters hard because their bases are already higher that their scalings so the new AP barely helps their skills while the mana regen removal means that they cant use their skills as often. I played some Soraka last week and it was pretty hellish how she could go OoM for doing anything more that just slight poke with Q.

Salty Mc Feed1 votes

I guess enchanters still scale hard enough so Riot has to keep a bunch of absurdly strong 40% healing debuff items in the game.

Voluug131 votes

tbh at this point GWounds exists for self healing nightmares like Mundo or WW, way more that any enchanter. Their numbers have been gutted or never healed enough to justify it.

IainG101 votes

{quoted}

Noone spent 1400 gold upgrading their support item. You just bough the first amelioration and never the 3rd which was a trap.

Except for the Targon line for that sweet, sweet CDR.

But yeah, Support Main here; the new items are a horrible downgrade, at least until 9.24b hits and they get their regen back, an increase to their T3 upgrade threshold and the removal of the farm penalty on the T3 (provided that doesn't change).

Z3SIeeper9 votes

Gotta remember she has 0 base AD growth, which detracts from the gold value in stats she's getting from her passive.

Using OP logic, at level 18, most ADCs gain a total of +40 AD through base stats alone. That's roughly equal to 1400 gold in AD that Senna isn't getting in exchange for her passive's AD.

It's by far not an equal exchange, as 20 stacks already pushes her past +40 AD and gives her the crit and range. But it is her passive afterall, it'd be weird for it to not be more than equal to the lack of AD growth.

######Definitely not saying that she's balanced, for sure overtuned right now based on statistics

blindasleep3 votes

{quoted}

Gotta remember she has 0 base AD growth, which detracts from the gold value in stats she's getting from her passive.

Using OP logic, at level 18, most ADCs gain a total of +40 AD through base stats alone. That's roughly equal to 1400 gold in AD that Senna isn't getting in exchange for her passive's AD.

It's by far not an equal exchange, as 20 stacks already pushes her past +40 AD and gives her the crit and range. But it is her passive afterall, it'd be weird for it to not be more than equal to the lack of AD growth.

######Definitely not saying that she's balanced, for sure overtuned right now based on statistics

Relic Cannon: Senna basic attacks deal 20% AD bonus physical damage on-hit and grant 10 / 15 / 20% of the target's movement speed as Movement speed icon bonus movement speed for 0.5 seconds on-hit.

Z3SIeeper3 votes

{quoted}

Senna basic attacks deal 20% AD bonus physical damage on-hit and grant 10 / 15 / 20% of the target's movement speed as bonus movement speed for 0.5 seconds on-hit.

Lmfao I conveniently forgot this entire part. Counteracts her unique drawback that was supposed to soft counteract her soul suckin.

blindasleep1 votes

{quoted}

Lmfao I conveniently forgot this entire part. Counteracts her unique drawback that was supposed to soft counteract her soul suckin.

That's what has people so upset. She has something to counteract almost every drawback to her kit built into her kit. Some of her numbers would have to be total trash to give her some real weaknesses.

Z3SIeeper1 votes

I don't think her passive should have a drawback, it just shouldn't give as much free stats on top of the bonus on-hit effects. Free stats as a passive is totally okay, this one is just overtuned.

Illabethe22 votes

And then you need to calculate:

-The net loss in AD per level -The net loss in Crit DAMAGE from a crit -The net loss in attack speed scaling -The net loss in her HP growth

And then there's all the abstract net losses .....like....

-40% AD scaling damage ability. -long cooldowns on her entire kit to balance out what her kit does.

Bottom line: If you're trying to break down gold math, take into account the negatives as well as the positives.

You botched the math on crit value, specifically because of how it works on her. In reality you should be weighing value based upon what crit actually does: damage.

On Senna:

800g = 25% of 200% damage

Senna: 600g = 15% of 130% damage

In other words, if 3200g = 100% crit of 200%

at 15%, Senna's crits are worth: #((3200*.15)2 -(3200*.15).7)/2 = 312 Gold.

#In other words, the crit portion only contributes 15.6 Gold.

(Your 600g for 15% Crit math was horribly wrong. 15% crit = 480G)

She is missing between 50-68 base AD, so you also need to debit that from your calculations for the AD value. (500-680 Gold, or enough AD to nullify 2.5-3.4 whole tiers of stacks)

Her attack speed is only 65% as effective as other adcs, so this is another consideration for valuation, but it's one that requires you to assume a specific build.

Senna max HP and min HP is 1795 to 529 HP.

That's approximately only 85.3% of the average adc's HP.

If Ruby Crystal is worth 400g, that's another loss of about 866 Gold, or 50g per level. (Assuming you gain about 1 level per 2 minutes of play, that's about 25g a minute).

So what the REAL math boils down to (assuming your AD and range math is right):

#15.6+35*.5 (Approximation because stacks per game vary) + 4.75 = 37.85 Gold per stack

Looks like you were inflating your numbers quite a bit ^^

Oh. and that doesn't include her attack speed stunting, which effectively makes the impact of all these extra stats ....... 65% effective, or really closer to 24.9 G per Mist stack

^Real math is far tamer.

Elite4Runner3 votes

I was really only calculating raw stats, which is really what she gets.

If you bought these stats from items, this is the amount of gold that she would need to spend to get them.

The way these stats are utilized by her kit does make a difference, yes, but that doesn't impact the value of the stats themselves.

Illabethe4 votes

Is a 35% reduced overall/130% crit the same crit as any other crit? NO. Is not having a base AD growth the same as having one? NO. Is having .2 of your base attack speed prevented from ever being enhanced the same as having fully scaling attack speed? NO.

(and ofc before you bring up Jhin, he gains multiplicative BONUSES from his attack limits, a guaranteed crit, which is exactly the OPPOSITE of what Senna gets)

You're trying to argue a 280G crit is worth the same as a 480G crit, and it's NOT.

Elite4Runner4 votes

That isn't what I'm saying.

item 3508 item 3508 item 1018 item 1018

Senna with 0 wraiths and these 4 items

vs

140 wraiths and 0 items.

Both give her 100% Crit strike chance and +140 AD

Her basic attacks would deal the same damage

Illabethe4 votes

What's the importance of breaking down the gold value in perspective of a single champion? What's the point in it?

Oh Right. The point is you're trying to argue Senna gets too much gold value in comparison to OTHER champions.

And yeah. I wish I had taken some screen captures of your original post, which literally had a line in it to the effect

"So Yeah. She's not just getting 3g per Mist. She's getting 3g + 72.54G"

I see you've rephrased it to try to defend your own post, along with at least 4 other edits you've input without ceding your incorrectness.

Elite4Runner4 votes

{quoted}

What's the importance of breaking down the gold value in perspective of a single champion? What's the point in it?

Oh Right. The point is you're trying to argue Senna gets too much gold value in comparison to OTHER champions.

It's funny that you're making up my point for me here. My point is that it is important to collect wraiths. It's more important to her than +3 gold. I'm not saying that it makes her over powered.

And yeah. I wish I had taken some screen captures of your original post, which literally had a line in it to the effect

"So Yeah. She's not just getting 3g per Mist. She's getting 3g + 72.54G"

I see you've rephrased it to try to defend your own post, along with at least 4 other edits you've input without ceding your incorrectness.

Lol I have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, I have edited my post, but I didn't really rephrase anything in the main body.

Why are you so triggered? I'm not attacking you here. My post was meant to be informative. You're the one that is trying to disprove me.

She gains additional stats from wraiths beyond the +3 gold. Those stats have the same value to her as they would if she purchased those specific stats from items. This is the comparison I'm making. The value of those stats on any other champion is irrelevant.

Waka FIocka2 votes

{quoted}

It's funny that you're making up my point for me here. My point is that it is important to collect wraiths. It's more important to her than +3 gold. I'm not saying that it makes her over powered.

Lol I have no idea what you're talking about. Yes, I have edited my post, but I didn't really rephrase anything in the main body.

Why are you so triggered? I'm not attacking you here. My post was meant to be informative. You're the one that is trying to disprove me.

She gains additional stats from wraiths beyond the +3 gold. Those stats have the same value to her as they would if she purchased those specific stats from items. This is the comparison I'm making. The value of those stats on any other champion is irrelevant.

she's triggered in all "anti"-senna threads because she one tricks her, definitely not because senna is op or anything

Dynikus1 votes

{quoted} My post was meant to be informative.

But it wasn't really informative since a lot of it wasn't accurate. If you're making an informative post with as much work put into it as you did, make sure you double check what you're trying to inform people of as to not mislead who you're trying to inform.

She gains additional stats from wraiths beyond the +3 gold. Those stats have the same value to her as they would if she purchased those specific stats from items. This is the comparison I'm making. The value of those stats on any other champion is irrelevant.

Was anyone picking up wraiths just because they give her 3 gold though? Whether it was your intent or not, I think your post did kind of come across as trying to say senna's wraiths are broken because they give her your calculated 75g each. Someone coming in and taking the information you displayed at its face value without doing their own math to see if it was accurate is now in the mindset that this ADC gets a whopping 75 gold per wraith for free while other adcs get nothing.

Elite4Runner1 votes

{quoted}

But it wasn't really informative since a lot of it wasn't accurate. If you're making an informative post with as much work put into it as you did, make sure you double check what you're trying to inform people of as to not mislead who you're trying to inform.

Please then, tell me how it is inaccurate? Where is my math flawed? It's one thing to come into a thread and say that someone is wrong, but can you actually tell me how I'm wrong?

Was anyone picking up wraiths just because they give her 3 gold though? Whether it was your intent or not, I think your post did kind of come across as trying to say senna's wraiths are broken because they give her your calculated 75g each. Someone coming in and taking the information you displayed at its face value without doing their own math to see if it was accurate is now in the mindset that this ADC gets a whopping 75 gold per wraith for free while other adcs get nothing.

It's actually not that hard for someone to initially get the perspective that the whole purpose of collecting wraiths is for an additional 3 gold, especially if they aren't taking into account the drop rate calculation. Which further emphasizes how an ADC would be wrong in assuming that a Senna player is getting 75 gold (by the way, it's 72.75 gold) per wraith is somehow broken.

Drop rate is a HUGE factor here! Which is what the math illustrates. Not farming minions over the first 15 minutes yields 32 wraiths while perfectly farming yields 12. Also note that 12 wraiths won't even yield the first increase of crit strike chance or range increase. At 12 wraiths, you're only getting 12 AD, which is only worth 35 gold per wraith. ADC Senna gains a great deal more gold that she can use to purchase stats through items. Support Senna gets a lot more stats through her passive and considerably less gold to spend on items. This is how the champion is balanced to keep her from being an ADC.

And of course, people are free to assume whatever they want, .. especially if they are too busy to take the time to read. I can't control that. I am not concerned with changing the opinions of people who aren't interested in reading the basis of my perspective before dismissing it.

Sire Hippington10 votes

You greatly undervalued the attack range. RFC only gives the range on energized attacks, Senna gets it permanantly for every single AA.

Elite4Runner3 votes

I was just trying to come up with some figure based on how much it adds to her base attack range. There simply isn't one on the lolwiki site.

For another champion with 600 attack range to gain an additional 210 attack range, the only option is to buy RFC, so that was my benchmark. If we take into account the difference in time it takes for Senna to accumulate that many stacks and the amount of gold it would take for her to purchase RFC, and negate the bonus damage on energized attack. .. it sort of balances out.

My overall point is, she gets more than just 3 gold from wraiths. ... a lot more.

IVSakenz4 votes

You can not assign that kind of value to them because of Sennas scaling... she does not get full value for certain stats that is made up for by the wraith system.

Elite4Runner6 votes

That isn't true. She gains those stats, period. Her scaling of those stats are irrelevant.

If she purchased that amount of AD, critical strike chance, or attack range (if she could) through items it would cost the amount of gold I gave. Her kit would still utilize the stats in the same way.

If she somehow bought item 3508 item 3508 item 1018 item 1018 and had zero wraiths, her basic attacks would deal the same damage as if she had zero items and 140 wraiths.

Sir Saltarin3 votes

Her scaling of those stats are irrelevant.

No.

What is irrelevant is your entire post if you onty take her passive in count as if it existed on the void.

It's like talking about Veigar passive without taking in count the rest of his kit. It's just worthless.

Elite4Runner1 votes

I don't see how you're not understanding this. The value of the stats that she is gaining is the same as the value given by the items.

The same would be true for Veigar because if he buys an Amp Tome, he is still only gaining a flat 20 AP, regardless of how much AP his passive gives him.

The value of the AP he gets from his passive goes up based on the value of AP based on the value of an Amp Tome. He gains 21.75 gold value per AP gained from his passive.

With Senna, she gains 1 AD per wraith. That is 35 gold. The way her kit utilizes that AD doesn't make a difference in this calculation because after 10 wraiths he has +10 AD. The same amount of AD she would have if she spent 350 gold on a Long Sword.

Her Critical Strike CHANCE factors in the same way. 15% critical strike CHANCE only increases the frequency at which she can deal a critical strike. The critical strike DAMAGE is the same regardless of her critical strike chance. The only thing that augments her critical strike damage is Infinity Edge, and that factor is outside of the scope of this analysis.

Saying that the value of stats is based on the champion's kit is like trying to compare the value of AP on Veigar and Riven. That is an irrational comparison because Riven doesn't use AP at all. However, if Riven was to purchase Ability Power, it would still cost her 435 gold for an Amp Tome.

Sir Saltarin2 votes

Saying that the value of stats is based on the champion's kit is like trying to compare the value of AP on Veigar and Riven.

That's an extreme example of exactly my point. You almost got it.

If you only analyze Veigar Passive it would tell you that it gives him free 1572 or whatever gold worth on stats when he has farmed X

Now, if Riven had Veigar Passive, she would also have 1572 or whatever gold worth on stats when she has farmed X.

For your simplistic analysis both Riven and Veigar would have the same gold worth of stats with that passive.

But on one of them would be useless.

Now, a less extreme example:

We have Senna and Semma, her old sister. Both have the same kit except Semma Q and W ratio of AD is twice Senna AD ratio.

Both have the same passive, and both get with 40 Wraith an X stats that are worth Y gold.

And you would say that for both the passive gives them the same amount of gold worth on stats.

But it doesn't translate into both passives having the same actual power ? No, since Semma ratios are higher her passive is better being the same.

What I'm trying to say is that all your math to find how gold worth her wraith stats will always be not useful at all without understanding how she actually uses those stats, what matters is what translates into actual power which is a combination of her entire kit, runes and items she uses on relation of the rest of the champs kits, runes and items plus all the map variations.

That's why a game like Lol is so hard to balance, because everything affects everything and isolating a single aspect to analyze will give you a wrong impression if that aspect.

Elite4Runner1 votes

[sg-janna]

That's not how gold value statistics work lmao!

The stats are based off of a benchmark that is consistent, regardless of the champion.

Sir Saltarin2 votes

Regardless of the champion.

Again, if you calculate it regardless of the champ you get a pretty number that doesn't mean actually anything.

Is that what you want ? Fine.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ad3P1rtQ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-12-17T00:12:14.877+0000)

No.

What is irrelevant is your entire post if you onty take her passive in count as if it existed on the void.

It's like talking about Veigar passive without taking in count the rest of his kit. It's just worthless.

The point of this thread is clearly an analysis and breakdown of the amount of effective gold senna gets from her passive, determined by quantifying the amount of gold her infinitely scaling passive is worth per point. This is independent of the kit and looks only at the gold effectiveness of her passive. What youre trying to do is move the goal post and obsfucate the facts by arguing new rules and modifiers.

It shows how much free gold senna can get, and doesnt even take into consideration the lifesteal she gets when above 100% crit chance (which is also worth a fair penny).

Dynikus1 votes

{quoted}

The point of this thread is clearly an analysis and breakdown of the amount of effective gold senna gets from her passive, determined by quantifying the amount of gold her infinitely scaling passive is worth per point. This is independent of the kit and looks only at the gold effectiveness of her passive. What youre trying to do is move the goal post and obsfucate the facts by arguing new rules and modifiers.

It shows how much free gold senna can get, and doesnt even take into consideration the lifesteal she gets when above 100% crit chance (which is also worth a fair penny).

It seems kind of worthless to evaluate her equivalent gold gain from her passive without taking the rest of her kit into consideration, no? She may gain x amount of gold per stack, but that gold is effectively worth significantly less compared to the same amount on any other champion, so I'm not sure what good calculating it this way really does.

Paroe1 votes

{quoted}

It seems kind of worthless to evaluate her equivalent gold gain from her passive without taking the rest of her kit into consideration, no? She may gain x amount of gold per stack, but that gold is effectively worth significantly less compared to the same amount on any other champion, so I'm not sure what good calculating it this way really does.

Not everything has an agenda or pushes a narrative. Some things are math for the sake of putting knowledge out there. Saying something that puts out fact is wrong because it doesnt take into account "everything else" is narrow, closed minded, and absolutely ridiculous because all that mindset does is obfuscate the facts in favor of a narrative. (American politics here, skip this section if you dont wanna read it!) ~~We see this in american politics - rethugvangelicals have been trying to take down facts and constitute their own alternate facts from bluster and misinformation to hide the truth from everyone not already on their side. Make it harder for the other people to convince their people. ~~ On the boards we can even already see the effects of this kind of thing in regards to senna; Theres people who believe, unconditionally, that senna is good and balanced maybe even in need of buffs since her winrate has dropped. Then theres the people who believe that senna is still very strong and needs to be looked at/monitored long term. Polarized communities where no amount of evidence will change anything, because if youre on one side youre not on the other.

One could argue CT is also a victim of that closed, narrow mindset. Theres people who believe unconditionally that CT is bad, his champions are evil, and that he has ruined the game. Then theres people who believe that CT made fun, innovative, unique champions and that the balance team keeps them strong because theyre flashy. No amount of argument or evidence from either side will remotely change the opinion of anyone who has already made up their mind.

PopcornBunni4 votes

Now calculate the gold value of a normal character getting AD and AS from levels.

Actually I'll just post it here since it's a simple calculation. I'll use Sivir since she's pretty much the embodiment of a simple right clicking ADC.

3 AD per level: 105g, and 1.6% bonus Attack Speed per level: 40g

Totaling 145g per level

By comparison Senna gets less gold in AS per level. Yes Senna does technically get 4% bonus AS per level as well, but her base AS is 0.2 attacks per second with an additional +0.425 to match the 0.625 of the rest of the cast, but this second amount sn't affected by bonus attack speed. So any bonus AS she gets only affects the 0.2 attack speed, or 32% effective as on most of the cast: 4% is only applied to the 0.2 for an additional 0.08 attacks per second each level, or a 1.28% increase: 32g

Since Senna doesn't get bonus AD per level, the value of the souls she collects each level needs to be 113g to keep up.

From your 30g crit value, it should also be noted that her crits hit for less than other characters: 70% less to be exact. So the 30g from the crit chance she gets is really the effect of 9g of crit chance on anyone else.

This makes the value of each soul 51.75. While this is lower than your estimate, it's still extemely high given the amount she needs to compensate from her missing stats per level.

Put another way, Senna only needs to collect 2.184 souls every level to be on par with "normal" characters. Any more frequent than that and she outstats them by increasingly ridiculous amounts. It's no wonder she had a nearly 60% WR on launch and is still sitting cozily broken.

GigglesO3 votes

Should also figure out how much she loses in attack speed and ad from shitty scaling on it.

Elite4Runner1 votes

I repeat, ... this has nothing to do with the gold value accumulated from wraiths.

GigglesO1 votes

That’s not why I posted, I was being lazy, not wanting to look up the gold loss myself...

She’s got a lot of extra math in her kit with her increased damage for lower attack speed, no AD per level, and her AS growth seems wonky.

Elite4Runner1 votes

Maybe I jumped a bit too quick, but I am getting annoyed of repeating myself because people seem to be making the argument that the stats she gains somehow have less gold value because of her augmented attack speed and critical strike damage. My point here was to compare the stats gained (+20 AD, +15% Crit Chance, +25 attack range / 20 wraiths) with their equivalent gold values based on item 1036 item 1018 and item 3094 as a baseline.

As for her augmented critical strike DAMAGE and attack speed modifiers, those are going to scale the same with her stats, regardless of gaining them from wraiths and items. This means it doesn't impact the overall value of the raw stats.

GigglesO2 votes

I'm just curious how much she doesn't gain per level.

Base stats can be worth alot of gold.

Elite4Runner1 votes

She doesn't gain any ....

Part of the reason I think this is a strange thing for people to want me to factor into my math here is because there is no set number for Attack Damage Growth

Look at this chart

I could try and figure out an average, or an average from marksmen, .. but I could also use an average from supports.

Wild Geese1 votes

They're worth too much. ADC Senna is punished way too hard for farming properly thanks to the recent nerf. You end up with about half the stacks a support Senna does, probably less if you farm perfectly (which I can't).

So I get about 75% of the stacks people get as Support Senna since I'm a pretty bad CS'er... It feels bad to last hit, it feels bad not to. What a frustrating champ to play as ADC.

Salty Mc Feed2 votes

Punished for farming properly or rewarded for not farming properly?

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