I dont understand whats going on on this board..

Penns·Dec 10, 2016·5 votes·734 views

Like literally everyone calls this a tank meta and, except for a few broken ones , adcs arent really that great atm.

You see stuff like https://youtu.be/lqOklHfzOwQ?t=14m57s happen almost every game even tho the adc has Last Whisper or LDR. Sure adcs arent supposed to 1v1 but you know what they are supposed to do? Kill tanks in teamfights later on when they have like 5+ items, and not die to Thornmail. So why is that a bad thing? Tanks are like almost indistructable until that point anyway unless youre playing Vayne.

Also Thornmail is an item that does damage to an adc for doing exactly what he is supposed to, thats not very healthy. It should honestly just be removed or reworked to either just reduce Life Steal or do something more interactive, or at least be kept "not viable" on champs that arent ...

28 Comments

ZT XperimentorDec 10, 20165 votes

Marksmen are supposed to deal Sustained damage. That's damage over time, not instakilling people. Their original design was to take objectives (towers, dragon, baron, ext) better than others due to this consistency. Unfortunately riot has been baby-ing this class more than any other since the beginning, which has led to such mains becoming self-entitled airheads. There's already an abundance of options for marksmen to negate tanks & mages; marksmen have always been meta.

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

They dont instakill tanks and their damage vs squishies is a different topic. Their damage against tanks isnt a problem because they are literally designed to have dps vs objectives and tanks.

ZT XperimentorDec 10, 20162 votes

It's hyperbole, but still killing tanks in 5 auto-attacks is ridiculous. Damage in general is too high, but it's most noticeable with marksmen now that riot slowed down most assassins.

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

My point is that that never happens either. Idk where people get that experience from but a tank late game with like 4-4.5k hp and 350 armor would have to take ~900 dmg per crit to die to 5 autos. Does an adc even get close to doing 900 dmg per auto to a tank in a realistic scenario? Because I never see it happen, even Cait with her headshot+crits doesnt do that much normally.

ZT XperimentorDec 10, 20162 votes

If the enemy team has any magic damage, the tank won't stack straight armor. And yes it's been done in plenty of videos. Now that you mention caitlyn specifically . . . https://youtu.be/ElruMeOmvTk?t=435 You can see the builds here, granted she's much farther ahead gold wise (thanks to riot's excessive snowballing add-ons in the previous season), but she has an infinity edge & dominik's regard against darius' sunfire cape & randuin's omen; and critical hits him for 924 physical damage.

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

Well I said "realistic scenario"... I dont think killing a 3 item + boots bot with 6 full dmg items on Cait really counts :o Also I just looked at the standard build for Naut top, its not really stacking armor, but we can go with 300 armor as well. With LDR thats still ~200 armor.

Btw an adc would need a bit over 1000 AD to crit a 200 armor tank for 900. With IE. A bit less with the %dmg amps from masteries, LDR and stuff but still lol.

ZT XperimentorDec 10, 20162 votes

Did you miss my comment that she was ahead because of snowballing? Common games are doing that because riot forcefully sped up the game.

How about another example, though in a custom, I've seen similar builds used in live pvp. http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2355001908/39526605?tab=stats

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/109607089011952730/AB00D9B2442BA33C5E3937B66AA4F3A6FB566E2D/

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/109607089011943680/917FD3E8AE05B7780396BE2862BBB25EC0204501/

Shifue DravenDec 10, 20161 votes

If they piled up that much armor then it sounds like your team needed ap. I'll admit if i see a team that is all ad i am hulking the ad armor.

TehNACHODec 10, 20164 votes

First rule of the boards; everybody is contradictory. EVERYBODY.

Anywho, a couple things about the video: Twitch is alone Twitch has less gold and levels than Nautilus Twitch only had Last Whisper, and lacks Phantom Dancer for dueling or Lifesteal for a prolonged fight. Naut had Randuin's, reducing the effectiveness of Twitch's 80% Critical Strike build.

All in all, it makes total sense that Twitch would lose in this scenario. That video is a terrible example.

Naut doesn't even have Thornmail...

PennsDec 10, 20161 votes

Like I said, adcs dont and shouldnt win 1v1s against tanks with those items. It was just an example, what Im saying is that tanks often shit on adcs with Last Whisper or LDR 1v1 so why is it a bad thing that they can kill tanks in endgame teamfights?

Shifue DravenDec 10, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Like literally everyone calls this a tank meta and, except for a few broken ones , adcs arent really that great atm.

You see stuff like https://youtu.be/lqOklHfzOwQ?t=14m57s happen almost every game even tho the adc has Last Whisper or LDR. Sure adcs arent supposed to 1v1 but you know what they are supposed to do? Kill tanks in teamfights later on when they have like 5+ items, and not die to Thornmail. So why is that a bad thing? Tanks are like almost indistructable until that point anyway unless youre playing Vayne.

Also Thornmail is an item that does damage to an adc for doing exactly what he is supposed to, thats not very healthy. It should honestly just be removed or reworked to either just reduce Life Steal or do something more interactive, or at least be kept "not viable" on champs that arent ...

Tanks are not meant to be burst down or be stopped by the adc if it's 1v1 and items involved and i am close your dead but that being said you can kite me all day and kill me if i am stupid enough to chase you. Tanks are the guys that are meant to start the fights and "tank" the damage while the others try to wipe you out.

TL;DR Tanks are not meant to be solo'ed after they got items but still can be in certain cases.

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

Tanks dont ever get solod by non-Vayne adcs and if they do they are either feeding or the adc is fed hard, so its not really about balance at that point.

Shifue DravenDec 10, 20162 votes

Then what are you getting at? I mean it kinda sounds like you have a issue with tanks being hard to face. Then the thornmail which i rarely see anyone build and i know atleast for me on adc i usually build something that gives me sustain like bloodthrister as it's high ad and a heal+shield abd thronmail does nothing to me or if i know i am going against a bad tank/heavy team i will get botrk and that fixes the thornmail sustain and tank issues due to me shredding them.

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

The thing is that 1) You need life steal to negate Thornmail... ok, lets get that 3700 gold BT since its the only really viable LS item. 2) Ok, but now you need armor pen to get through the 100 armor from Thornmail and other items, so 2700 gold for a Last Whisper item. 3) But now you dont have any dps, so before building those 2 items you need your 6200 gold core item 3085 item 3031 and obviously 1100 gold boots item 3006 .

Now my problem is people complaining about Thornmail, a cheap early-mid game item, getting "completely negated" once an adc has that 13700 gold late game build. Like, tanks are supposed to get outscaled by damage later on, I dont see why thats a problem now.

Shifue DravenDec 10, 20163 votes

1)Botrk is very viable and even got buffed and deals with the armor pent issues as well since it's 8% of current health as damage plus ls and has as. 2)Yes armor pent can be useful to have if you don't have other means of getting around it but what else would you buy? most of them have some form of damage as well. 3)I fail to see how you don't have dps at this point i mean if you really went bt first you have 75 damage and sustain to keep you farming. But the thing is if you're the one building to kill the tank then you have to either choose or balance what you are running. it's either you still build heavy crit and got for soft targets and then the tank or you build to kill the tank or you can do a little of both.

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

Cool so.. what champ gets Bork over BT? Vayne? I doubt it with crit builds. Kalista and Trist? Maybe but theyre not good anyway. Viable adcs like Cait, Jinx, or even Jhin? Nah.

Because 75 AD alone is almost nothing. You need crit and attack speed for dps. Adcs shouldnt have to "build to kill the tank", they should naturally do it late game. And they probably shouldnt kill squishies with a few auto attacks.

Shifue DravenDec 10, 20163 votes

Well the thing is this sounds like you want adc to be the end all be all of the game. They already can beat down tanks rather hard with the right build you can't have everything. Honestly mages are made to be the "tank killer" technically not the adc.

Again it depends on what you want to do is how you build. So what your really saying is adc should face roll everyone?

I mean they can kill soft targets over adc and mages fast. They can't kite and some of them can cc fighters and drivers into the ground and kill them on damage as well. Depending on the bruisers the build will decide if they live or die trying to take a adc. So that leaves the tanks as the only one standing against the adc. See the pecking order here? So if a tank that is slow gets in your range you are suppose to be dead.That is the reason why tanks peel adc. I rush the adc it forces everyone on me cause if not you are dead. SO it's either deal with me and my team making the play or i kill the adc and then try for the mage. while my team hammers yours. that is what a tank does.

ViiLLAiNDec 10, 20162 votes

i feel like thornmail should scale off how much armor u already have maybe rework it around that

that way u cant just build it for shits and giggles

ViiLLAiNDec 10, 20162 votes

also adcs do suck complete ass right now

its cuz of how bad that dumb ass item 3036 is

give us the old last whisper back

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

I dont think its that strong either. Before, it was a good buy on many champs, then it was reworked to only do something against tanks, which was an overall nerf. Now pretty much no assassin or Fighter or anything buys it and if an adc does, its their last or 5th item most of the time.

48983507DEL1Dec 10, 20161 votes

Lol ADC is the only role that's consistently picked in every meta.

Tanks, Divers, Juggernauts, Fighters, Assassins, Mages, and even Supports have all been effectively replaced by one-another at some point in League's history since the basic Season 1 Meta has formed.

But Marksmen? Nope. There is no time in the meta where neglecting to pick an ADC has ever been a good strategy. Even when Bot Lane Mordekeiser was a thing, the opposing team would always picked an ADC to answer. And Bot Lane Mordekeiser was a COMPLETE fuck up.

Marksmen have never been weak enough to the point where they don't fit the meta, so saying "adcs do suck complete ass right now" is completely invalid and just plain wrong.

PennsDec 10, 20162 votes

Because like you said its a role, not a class like Tanks, Divers, Juggernauts,... They are just good at taking objectives so, without big changes, it just makes sense to have an adc. Morde bot was broken as hell and just showed that a melee bot laner cant work because it would be too cheesy and op.

ProfDrDeathDec 10, 20161 votes

ADCs are picked in every meta because every meta has an XP sharing duo lane. And ADCs are the class least negatively affected in their performance by sharing XP while getting full gold.

Morde could be played bot because he broke the XP-sharing rule, enabling him to crush people with a level advantage.

Critmaster GarenDec 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Like literally everyone calls this a tank meta

the reason why adc might feel like they dont have the most impact is, because games are decided by the jungler and mid laners ability to 4 man dive bot lane, take down the bot lane turret, then a drake, and then snowball to end the game, before even the own marksman significantly powerspikes.

it has nothing to do with tanks being too tanky, or adc not able to take them down, and all with strategic changes to the game with the addition of turret first blood and the removal of fortification from the bot lane turret, combined with the buffs to jungle gold and xp.

everyone at low ratings always calls this and that a tank meta. ive seen people complain about "the tank meta" when tanks wherent even played for a whole year two seasons ago.

they were so far out of the meta, that they werent viable at all. yet, according to a lot of people on reddit and in normal games, it was still a tank meta.

in fact, this right now is a support and a carry jungle meta (lee sin, twitch, elise, shyvana, hecarim). midlane is mostly dominated by mages.

ranged adc are still fucking broken lategame. the only reason why it doesnt often show is because games are generally short and dont last past midgame, before they reach the point where they become stupid.

games end early because of the bot lane changes and turret first blood making them horrendously snowbally.

if you think bot lane adc dont have enough impact on games right now, then try playing top lane. thats all i have to say.

PennsDec 10, 20161 votes

So when they are only "broken" late game and get shut down early enough most of the time, how is it not balanced?

Critmaster GarenDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

So when they are only "broken" late game and get shut down early enough most of the time, how is it not balanced?

i prefer the current state of the game personally to overpowered adc.

even though its generally shit, imo marksmen being the focus of the game always makes it worse. i kinda wish they would revert the fortification removal from bot lane, but i honestly dont want to deal with adc reaching lategame, unless their lategame damage gets cut down by at least 25%.

HeresyHorusDec 10, 20162 votes

if that 3 level under nautilus twitch just had a BoTRK instead of that Shiv he wouldn't have died .

but sure adc mains want builds that can Insta-Pop squishies as well as tanks in the same time .

and all they do is just aa !

Shifue DravenDec 10, 20161 votes

Maybe i am going to be the unpopular opinion here but i am going to go with it.Honestly i have not seen that many adc's do that bad against tanks.However even if they did they are tanks for a reason they are meant to take a lot of damage and help peel the lines or crush a back line. The fact that ranged fighters are in the top lane usually destroying the tanks i don't see the issue. Adc should not be able to stop everyone dead and they come damn close to it now.

Now with that twitch build i saw no he was not going to really stop naut. If he had more armor pent or a way to rip him like botrk black cleaver etc he would have stood a chance but then again the twitch was like what 7 and 17 and was more build to crit then armor pent.