Boards›Gameplay

Why adcs shouldnt be able to "outplay" assassins 1v1:

Penns·8/29/2017, 2:26:10 PM·101 votes·5,632 views

When I am like 5/0 with Fizz, its pretty likely that I still cant beat the 1/4 Jax or Irelia or whatever 1v1, especially with , because... their class is supposed to beat my class. Sure it can be frustrating, but thats just how the game works (tho you know.. I wouldnt mind a little nerf to Hexdrinker hehe).

And the same should go for adcs (minus a few exceptions maybe like a Vayne that is doing well). You get into a 1v1 with an assassin in a side lane while farming and cant back off? You got outplayed already.

Im not saying it should be a guaranteed kill, but it should be a guaranteed kill if the assassin plays it right, the adc shouldnt have control over the outcome and outplay him. Either the assassin fucks up (pre-rework Fizz misses his ult despite being able to throw it in melee range) and might have to run away/die, or he doesnt and gets the kill.
But right now, you have to land your ult on Fizz from at least 910 units away to get max damage or wait for your daggers as Kat, which gives the adc control.

Which is why I understand some reworks like Rengar because the "the assassin fucks up"-part didnt really exist with him getting vision on everyone in the area and doing damage with mostly empowered auto attacks (which doesnt mean that I like the rework itself, just the idea of changing his old kit).

https://i.gyazo.com/5f56a2e0d5315eea0783e7dabb6bfb33.png

143 Comments

Mens Hair Club8/29/2017, 2:32:40 PM51 votes

that answer makes no sense to me tbh

it's not "be somewhere else," it's "don't be in a lane by yourself with no vision so the enemy can't get the drop on you." proof the assassin rework was dumb l0l

KONO RUBICK DA8/29/2017, 2:45:57 PM33 votes

you outplay an assassin with an adc by not standing alone, map positiniong, map awareness, and non-isolation gameplay. this is how in league it always has been until assassin rework

even a 1k mmr russian trash player in dota knows that

but no, in league, an adc gets to outplay you while they have point and click damage, and 1v1 a zed

this is so stupid

Teridax688/29/2017, 3:28:09 PM21 votes

I agree with this: if you are designed to counter another type of champion and you play well against them, assuming equal gold/xp, you should be winning fights against them. While there should be tools for any champion to be outplayed, and for them to outplay others, that still also leaves room for champions to have good innate advantages against each other: sure, a marksman could dodge an assassin's burst, or head for their allies, but the assassin should also not have all that much trouble reaching them or bursting them in the first place. This is in part why I'm uncomfortable with a game state where assassins and mages, both of whom naturally counter marksmen with their burst, often have to fear the marksman simply because the latter can kill them before they can do the same to their target, while also healing through a lot of their damage.

One particularly egregious case I saw on Gameplay featured players trying to defend Kog'Maw outdueling Talon in the mid game, just by standing still and autoattacking, and I don't blame those players really, because this is more indicative of a larger mentality problem where we've become used to class dynamics not exactly working as intended. Ultimately, this should never be a totally binary relationship (both parties should feel like they have at least a chance of coming out on top), but it should be nowhere near perfectly equal either.

Ariel the Cruel8/29/2017, 3:53:37 PM20 votes

I'm not going to defend ADC output. Yes, they are the most valuable role. But their strengths are a relic of League's origins, and isn't going to change without pre-season level work (possibly more). It's unfortunate, but that's the reality right now. Yes, itemization favors them a tad ridiculously; but that's not really the core of their issues.

As a support main, I will defend the assassin rework though. There was nothing fun about pre-rework assassins appearing and blowing up carries faster than my latency can respond. Even Syndra ult is/was less frustrating since it takes about 3 seconds to 100-0 someone (not counting ball prep). Hell, some assassins would unloading so fast that supports were treated as free gold.

Leonerdo8/29/2017, 7:27:19 PM19 votes

The issue with assassins and why their burst has to be somewhat limited, is because they tend to have the most mobility and best target selection in the game. In other words, they always get to pick the fights they want, and can run from the fights they don't want. If they also have guaranteed, 1-shot, 1-second, combos, then there is almost no counterplay for most squishies (and even some fighters/tanks if they are behind). Most of the obvious counterplay, like sticking with your team or staying under tower, becomes much less effective when the assassin only needs 1 second to kill you and get out.

It's still possible to balance it that way, but it puts the game on a razor's edge, primarily surrounding the assassin: if they pop off, you have to take ridiculous precautions to not get one-shot every time their ult is up; and to make up for that best-case, their worst-case is just as ridiculously bad.

So yeah, longer burst windows and tactical counterplay are really important to give to assassins, so that they can have access to more burst at the expense of putting themselves at risk for longer. That way they can still be a threat when they fall behind, but not spell instant death when ahead.

Unfortunately, yes, that means that assassin should be subject to ACTUAL risk, even when going against squishy target. A fed mid-game assassin should still win 95% of the time in a 1v1 against a mid-game ADC. But by 30 minutes ADCs should be more of a real threat (since late-game is where they shine), and there should be a decent opportunity for an ADC to outplay and win that 1v1. And by decent opportunity, I mean like 30% chance instead of 5% (still slightly in the assassin's favor). And if the ADC has a tower, a support, or more gold on his side, then that should even the odds.

Obviously there's a lot of variable involved, but that's the point; it's a complicated situation, rather than a simple question of "Did the assassin get fed early, and did he press his buttons in the right order? If he did, then the ADC probably died before a Nami bubble could even hit the ground."

chipndip18/29/2017, 4:53:53 PM16 votes

The reason assassins got changed in that update is because your "1v1" was less that and more like "surprise butt sex". One minute you're doing alright, and the next minute everything, including that dude's pointy ass shit he's got on him, has gone WAY south.

Only way to "counter-play" a fed assassin is to not be where they are in the first place, but that's frustrating when it gets that way after only a few kills, and A LOT of people complained.

Rainfall8/29/2017, 3:12:43 PM14 votes

Please tell me assasin mains,if an assasin should be able to 100-0 an adc without any counterplay in 2 seconds,then what stops him from doing the same to the enemy mid?

KennysDreamGirl8/29/2017, 5:51:13 PM10 votes

you kinda answered your post in your post. "should be a guaranteed kill if the assassins plays it right". if you play it right as a 5 0 fizz then you will kill him lmao.if you dont then you messed up

Glory978/29/2017, 3:40:00 PM9 votes

The big difference is, that you choose to fight that tank when you're assassin. You have the superior mobility and if you don't want to fight the tank it's k. Do you know how terrible it is as midlaner to play against a zed or katarina that got ahead by 2 or 3 kills, getting zoned of your creep wave and turret just because you need to respect their potential all in? Yes adc are too strong at the moment but making oneshots easier for assassins isn't an option either. I think the crucial mistake began when riot added the overpowered peel. Back then I could play arround kayle ultimate, but wtf is an assassin supposed to do against tahm kench? And removing the aura-effect of locket but severly increasing the active shield effect, that is impossible to get through as assassin?

Hexs Fortune8/29/2017, 7:53:20 PM6 votes

I'd rather weaken ADC than buff assassins. 100-0 in 1-2 seconds without counter play feelsbadman

i cant move wtf8/29/2017, 11:33:05 PM6 votes

Because inherent in an asssassin's kit is great mobility. If you got into a 1v1 with jax or irelia as fizz or zed, it's because you wanted to. You're the one with the mobility to either engage or disengage. ADCs don't have much mobility at all and usually only limited or conditional CC that often isn't enough to peel them from a 1v1 with an assassin that wants to get on them. If you get in range of an ADC then it's because you chose to be there, not because they just appeared on you.

alfavhunter8/29/2017, 4:58:33 PM6 votes

an assassin should be able to 1v1 an adc

mages should be a challenge because mages have CC

tanks/enhancers are the counter to assassins going after adc/mage

fighter/juggernaut can 1v1 an assassin with ease but aren't very good at saving others from them

Vallalan8/29/2017, 6:42:55 PM6 votes

well the point of the assassin update was to make assassins feel less frustrating to play against. to give them delays in their burst so it wasn't like "im standing in my team but I died instantly anyway"

That was a fine idea at the time and still is imo.

Assassins are hard to tune because when they can one shot reliably and insanely fast (like 1.5 seconds or less) then you are left being like "well there was nothing I could do, he wanted to kill me and now he did". and that's not fun.

on the flip side, when they CANT kill reliably and instantly its a little TOO easy right now in particular to "outplay" an assassin. especially since a lot of meta tanks CC is pretty reliable and easy to land. (looking at YOU maokai)

assassins cannot thrive as long as peel is as strong as it is. in a 1 v1 situation an assassin and a target enemy should be able to outplay each other with the assassin having FAR better tools geared at burst damage and mobility.

but with the amount of shield stacking and reliable cc, its a lot harder to play an assassin in this current meta.

you have to ask if thats the current meta though. if tanks and support itemization wasn't bonkers right now, could assasins thrive?

maybe.

Personally I think one thing the assassin rework failed on was giving the assassins more outplay potential.

I personally feel assassins should have very low cooldowns, but less burst per say. like a lot of damage in their short cooldowns, but not enough to one shot instantly without their ultimate. but they can constantly weave in and out of a fight using their mobility to their advantage.

right now an assassin's mobility spell is usually still relatively long for a fight which means if they go in they better kill cuz its going to be pretty damn hard to get out. If you look at assassins its almost enough. you got leblanc with double distortion, zed with his shadow swaps on W and R, kha with his multiple stealth on his ult, and akali has her shroud. Talon only has his ult, fizz has his E which is his primary engage/damage tool, and then you go Ekko who only really has his ult to get out. won't include rengar cuz hes a diver now.

that's just not a healthy play pattern I fee for those 3. Fizz either has to be able to reliably one shot by landing 1 skill shot which is bullshit or he doesn't really do anything. Talon has to be able to either kill you without ult altogether or he has no out of a fight. and shaco also has no out.

assassins needed more outplay and mobility not the same amount of upfront burst with just a delay in exchange for tools assassins never asked for (like a cc cleanse on rengar or wave clear on leblanc.)

rtbf761092718/29/2017, 7:09:03 PM5 votes

I'm a fizz / talon main and I really don't understand where the "omg adc 1v1'd the assassin" complaints come from. On equal terms, I have to fuck up SO badly to not kill an ADC 1v1. Not even missed ult as fizz is enough, basic abilities plus protobelt one shots an ADC in almost any point of the game.

Thefrostyviking8/29/2017, 5:51:51 PM4 votes

How can the marksman outplay a assassin tho? Only Draven and Vayne have disruption tools to prevent engages or break combo's.

Trist as well if you count her ultimate.

If you are telling me that a KogMaw or Ashe can outplay your general assassin then i wish to object, if i am playing either one of those and get caught alone i´ll die 10/10 times unless they mess up badly.

Provided we aren't too far apart in terms of KDA, CS,items and lvl of course*

Sun Wu Ryuumoku8/29/2017, 6:56:52 PM4 votes

{quoted}

When I am like 5/0 with Fizz, its pretty likely that I still cant beat the 1/4 Jax or Irelia or whatever 1v1, especially with , because...

Its not even true.

But anyway i move on. If u just take adc like a whole, In 1v1 most assassin will kill adc if they're alone. After yeah they're some pick where u need to connect ur brain to kill them in 1v1 situation.

My only "issue" atm is the lack of counterplay of adc to their main damages ressources... basicaly they just right clic.

But honestly i have no issue to assassinate (i play talon & Kayn as assassins).

Acheron168/29/2017, 9:05:26 PM3 votes

{quoted}

Im not saying it should be a guaranteed kill, but it should be a guaranteed kill if the assassin plays it right, the adc shouldnt have control over the outcome and outplay him.

This small sentence here shows how you don't even grasp the very concept of counterplay.

Counterplay is a mechanism that allows your opponent to avoid or counter your powerful attack. Botching your attack is not counterplay, shooting skillshots that can be dodged or damage that is delayed is counterplay.

What you're advocating is that pre-rework Rengar was ok: as long as he pressed his buttons in the right order (Ravenous Hydra+Q+E+W+Q if it even got this far) anyone that wasn't a tank would be instantly deleted.

Sorry, but I don't think you have the skills required to make balance decisions. Saying that someone can't play (due to always being dead) because the assassin player knows how to minimally play his character is just inane and a TERRIBLE game design vision.

Nut on my Butt8/29/2017, 4:52:26 PM3 votes

Yeah I see Lucians able to use their dash offensively vs bruisers and even some juggernauts and be able to get away with it just fine because of the initial damage.

Rouwhorst8/30/2017, 8:06:31 AM3 votes

"Dodge the shot", try that when they use a skillshot pointblank in brush. I think we can all agree that the way to prevent this, is to "be somewhere else". "Don't facecheck" is just another way of saying "do not be there without knowing you are safe". "Be somewhere else" is just a generalisation which degrade the actual value of the individual factors involved.

If you want to avoid dead (especially when you are squishy) you need to know where you can be in order to be safe. Not respecting someone's damage and mobility; not watching the minimap, overextending without wards or teammates (you do not know where the enemy is) may all lead to dead. Note this has all to do with knowledge. If you mess up one of the above, the enemy only has to capitalize on this mistake, increasing the odds drastically for himself. Assassins especially thrive on the mistakes of others (damage and mobility is almost always all they offer). And when they do, they become obnoxiously strong. In normal play, a lot of mistakes will be made, so of course they will flourish!

These sort of mistakes can be hard to spot, even more so because the person in question only gets punished for but some of his mistakes. Difficulty in seeing one's own mistakes while still getting punished for them ~~may~~ will lead to confusion and frustration. So naturally people who are new and ignorant will be frustrated about those who punish them for seemingly nothing.

In short, there is counter play to burst damage but this is hidden behind a wall of knowledge.

Making assassins more difficult to play, while also adding a bit more understandable tools for others? Totally fine with me. Adding tools for others means the assassins will be less reliable, this reliability should be balanced accordingly. Increasing the time it takes for assassins to burst also adds more tools for others, but the reliability will probably suffer a lot. It also increases the window of retaliation. Given that assassins are often almost as squishy as the person they are trying to murder, this window of retaliation should be kept to a minimum if they want to stay alive. This can be achieved by bursting someone, but it is not the only way. Untargetability, range, mobility, invulnerability, shields, heals, tankyness and reducing damage of retaliating champion also offer safety. (invulnerability, shields, heals, tankyness are not really suited for assassins because they should stay squishy) Increasing burst times should be paired with increasing one of the above, sadly this did not happen.

Squey8/30/2017, 6:14:53 PM3 votes

When its 20 min in and a Trist with IE+ zeal jumps over a wall on top me me ( talon) and kills me b4 i can finish any of my abitliies (thx riot for long animations). That sitiation shouldnt be possible. I was more fed but died in a second to just autos. Oh and the best part was the trist said in all chat " what are u thinking picking an assassin? I have ardent censor and u dont"