Boards›Gameplay

Is it fair for one item to completely counter a champion?

Dethflash··43 votes·4,590 views

All champions can be at least slightly countered by items, but some champions are basically useless if the enemy team buys one certain item. Some examples would be, VladVladimir gets crap for healing, which is what his whole kit and theme is evolved around, if the enemy laner just gets item 3123 executioner's calling, for mages its not as bad because item 3165 only reduces healing to champions below 35% health. But for people like swain, vladimir, Aatox (R.I.P), soraka, sona, and mundo they get pretty much screwed from an 800 gold item, not as much for soraka and sona since they are healing for other people, but anyone who relies on healing themself through an ability is countered by an 800 gold item, doesn't seem to fair in my opinion. Maybe if Executioner's calling only applied grievous wounds to champion below 40% health would be more balanced, and more similar how it works for item 3165 Do you think the passive for item 3123 executioner's calling is a bit to strong against some champions?

If you are not familiar with executioner's calling here is it stats below Build path, long sword + 450 gold = executioner's calling 15 attack dmg passive- UNIQUE – EXECUTIONER: Physical damage inflicts Grievous Wounds on enemy champions for 3 seconds

139 Comments

EndlessSorcerer21 votes

DrMundo vs item 3033

Goodbye, Mundo.

Dethflash5 votes

{quoted}

DrMundo vs item 3033

Goodbye, Mundo.

Yup, don't even need to build the full item 3033 to wreck mundo.

Troll Slaiyer21 votes

item 3364 = useless Teemo

Lothàrs Edge6 votes

Especially when teams smarten up and buy 2-3 sweepers instead of just 1. Then it sucks to be teemo.

AirKingNeo12 votes

Next patch it won't anymore so rejoice.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

What happens next patch?

Photos of Ghosts5 votes

Reveals, doesn't disable

NineTailedMystic5 votes

So now when I actually have to play Top against Teemo as Garen, I can do literally nothing.

Knoyle1 votes

except item 2055

NineTailedMystic5 votes

Is getting the same treatment as Sweeper. Reveals, but not disables.

Knoyle1 votes

can you not simply destroy them once revealed?

RisenDarkKnight2 votes

Yeah but you can't ignore them and just run through like you could before.

Knoyle3 votes

so you mean a fair form of counterplay?

Terozu2 votes

Yes, finally.

SociopathFriend7 votes

As someone who has played modern Teemo against Garen top with the current items and trinkets- you did nothing before and you won't after either.

Mira Arya Enthe15 votes

Anybody who relies on traps/camo item 3341 item 2055

Anybody with one major CC item 3814 item 3102 item 3139 item 3222

Anybody who relies fully on burst item 3157 item 3401 item 3190 item 3026 item 3156 item 3048 item 3072 item 3053

Anybody who relies on winning sustained fights item 3046 item 3107 item 3091 item 3075 item 3110 item 3143

Anybody who relies on lifesteal/healing item 3123 item 3033 item 3165

Anybody who relies on kiting, escape, chase or otherwise moving item 3116 item 3022 item 3025 item 3153 item 3143 item 3092 item 3030 item 3146

Anybody who relies on Armor/MR/HP item 3153 item 3147 item 3814 item 3142 item 3071 item 3036 item 3033 item 3135 item 3091 item 1416 item 3151 item 3020

Anybody item 3340 item 3649 item 3363 item 2045 item 2049

Lots of these instances exist in the game, items that counter a champions purpose. It is common.

CyberBalt8 votes

I don't think of of those counter as hard as executioners calling. It almost negates heal-reliant champs like Mundo, Vlad, and Morde.

Also, notice that most of the items you listed are full, complete items. Executioners calling is a measly 800 gold that you can just keep around your inventory till you upgrade it or need to sell it. The passive is fine, but it shouldn't be on an 800 gold item. It should be on a full legendary item (so Mortal Reminder in this case).

Mira Arya Enthe1 votes

Teemo is literally not viable above gold because people know how to buy a free, not 800g, free trinket, plus the 75 gold wards they were going to get anyway.

Plenty of these invalidate champions just as hard. Morde and Mundo are not viable because their slow moving designs are trash and have 0 tools to keep up with and fight a sleepy Jinx. Vlad is plenty viable in lcs, he was nerfed because of his ult breaking lcs, so he is not very good in solotier. That isn't GW, that is LCS balance vs SoloQ balance.

I agree GW is bad for balancing in general. But don't pretend it is the only item based counter.

CyberBalt3 votes

I agree about the Teemo thing, but two wrongs do not make a right. And I still standby that, it's fine on a legendary item (for now anyways -- like you said, GW is bad for the game overall) but it's a bit silly for it to be on an 800 gold item.

Tychusfindlay9194 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mira Arya Enthe,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVhJv6mm,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2017-02-18T01:24:05.839+0000)

Teemo is literally not viable above gold because people know how to buy a free, not 800g, free trinket, plus the 75 gold wards they were going to get anyway.

Plenty of these invalidate champions just as hard. Morde and Mundo are not viable because their slow moving designs are trash and have 0 tools to keep up with and fight a sleepy Jinx. Vlad is plenty viable in lcs, he was nerfed because of his ult breaking lcs, so he is not very good in solotier. That isn't GW, that is LCS balance vs SoloQ balance.

I agree GW is bad for balancing in general. But don't pretend it is the only item based counter.

Mundo's kit has remained relatively the same, and I remember mundo being played within the past year. I'm fairly certain the addition of mortal reminder so that exec isnt slot inefficient late game and builds into a full item is the reason mundo died off hard.

AirKingNeo3 votes

Anybody who relies on traps/camo

Next patch no more for traps.

FantasySniper2 votes

There's a difference between countering a role, and countering a specific champion.

For instance, LW counters tanks in general, but Thresh gets gimped in particular because his armour reserves are practically all bonus.

That was a weak example because LW is otherwise "healthy and necessary", but a strong example is an item such as Zhonya's which invalidates not only AD assassins, but also most any burst champion. Hence why its stats were repeatedly nerfed until its only redeeming factor was its active.

Grievous Wounds is an extreme offender because it makes a whole swath of champions - but not any particular role - worthless fairly easily and consistently. Healing is a mechanic that more than bleeds over from the healer-support role, it's practically a core mechanic of several champions such as Mundo, Vladimir, Aatrox, Zac, so on and so forth.

Euthenaasia13 votes

item 3139 Malzahar

Spoofghoul19 votes

yes i too build Malzahar with item 3111 item 3139 item 3814 item 3102 item 3157 item 3116 just to piss people off

Maddened King 5 votes

Malzahar item 3814 item 3102 item 3157 item 3026 item 3048 item 3053 item 2138 summoner 7 summoner 21 You don't need boots when you are a fortress

Nyanza6 votes

item 3157 item 3053 item 3814 item 3102 item 3156item 3026 item 3048 item 3401 item 3107 item 3190

Karthus :(

Clementine5 votes

Soraka + item 3123 or item 3165 = item 3070Soraka item 3070

SpecterVonBaren3 votes

Good. I still remember the hell everyone went through when Riot made it so GW only worked on self heals for a few months.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

They should just have removed it and nerfed the holy trinity Vladimir DrMundo Soraka

Tychusfindlay9192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aVhJv6mm,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2017-02-18T03:21:52.657+0000)

They should just have removed it and nerfed the holy trinity Vladimir DrMundo Soraka

There's a place for grievous wounds. Morello has a healthy grievous wounds restriction unlike executioners.

Believe it or not, if you think mundo is bad, think of how much healing Darius can do with ghost and flash to land a ton of Qs. If there was NO way to apply grievous darius would run just as rampant as those three if not even more rampant.

My hardest burst heal wasn't on vlad, but darius, I got like a 1.6k heal or something on a three man Q Fairly certain even vlad cant pull off that much of a burst on just one spell (though he can surpass it with R emp Q).

macromite4 votes

champions should be hard countered by items if they lack other counters, yes.

vlad is one of those champions. how would one expect to fight vlad without grievous wounds?

Terozu1 votes

...By timing your attacks and kiting him? Ahri

macromite1 votes

what i vlad then simply disengages into brush. there is a lot of that on the map.

Terozu1 votes

item 3363 item 3340 item 3341 item 2303 item 2301 item 2302 item 3711 item 2045 Vision OP.

macromite2 votes

^items.

Elikain4 votes

I don't think item 3123 is too strong, in my opinion. I don't have stats to share but 800g spent on some minor healing effects (like pots, HP regen and whatnot) isn't worth the purchase while getting it early for the drain tanks increases the risks for them, when they engage in fights and count on that healing. Grevious Wounds doesn't completely stop the healing, it just reduces the effectiveness of healing. It makes targets easier to kill through healing effects.

The reason why item 3123 and item 3165 have the same effect, but have different duration and item cost is because of the "spell VS AA" problem. Caster champions by default spend a lot more resources using their spells and that's where their DPS comes from. AA champions basically only pay for their damage in terms of AS (and over time, in other stats).

Erockandroll3 votes

To answer your question, that depends on how niche that item actually is.

If I force you to counter build me, and you make trade offs to do so, I'm giving my team an Advantage because your are no longer on your optimal item path. Of coarse, those champions tend to get seen as Oppressive, if those counter items are viewed as non viable, or that they feel too obligated to actually counterbuild me.

You mentioned Morrelo's isn't so bad because of it only applies 35% or less. Which is good, otherwise, Morrelo's is so core on mages that they would counter sustain by default. Now Executioner's calling is more interesting choice, because while it will counter Sustain for only 800 gold, it alone isn't slot efficient, and you won't have in your ending build, unless you upgrade it to mortal reminder. But then you would be choosing that over Lord Dominikan's regard. And if you have to chose between counter building a mid lane Vlad, or a top lane Maokai, I still have you in a bind.

Hawkefire2 votes

Actually Mortal Reminder (and by extension Executioners Calling), is incredibly useful and really not a counterpick item, largely because it works against such a wide range of things.

Take ADCs for example, a lot of them often build a single life-steal item (or use that mastery that grants lifesteal), and having a mortal reminder cuts that sustain by a very large amount. Also, the item is very useful against a very large amount of tanks/bruisers/juggernauts because a decent chunk of them all have sustain built in there kit (Maokai with his passive for example), or in the case of some bruisers that end up building lifesteal items, on top of the fact that it also grants a pretty massive amount of armor shred.

Frankly I see no reason to ever grab a Lord Dominiks Regard unless they have a very large amount of purely dedicated tanks, or if they only have a single champion that has sustain in their build/kit (AKA only the ADC has lifesteal).

Danjeng3 votes

Atm, Executioner's Calling can apply 40% healing reduction for a whole 3 seconds, just from a single auto. This 800 G item negates a lot of the strength of champions reliant on healing.

What if instead of just getting countered by a single auto, Grievous Wounds stacked up its healing reduction. 8% healing reduction for 1.5 seconds. So it breaks even with current value after 5 autos. Subsequent autos refresh GW duration (1.5 seconds). Caps out at 64% damage reduction. That way, it would require them to actually go out their way to actively attack you for the course of the next few seconds. Rather than just tagging you with a single auto and screwing you over.

Alternatively, keep damage reduction same at 40%, but lower its duration, so it would require the ADC to constantly focus you during a fight, which is what you want as a sustain tank.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

Atm, Executioner's Calling can apply 40% healing reduction for a whole 3 seconds, just from a single auto. This 800 G item negates a lot of the strength of champions reliant on healing.

What if instead of just getting countered by a single auto, Grievous Wounds stacked up its healing reduction. 8% healing reduction for 1.5 seconds. So it breaks even with current value after 5 autos. Subsequent autos refresh GW duration (1.5 seconds). Caps out at 64% damage reduction. That way, it would require them to actually go out their way to actively attack you for the course of the next few seconds. Rather than just tagging you with a single auto and screwing you over.

Alternatively, keep damage reduction same at 40%, but lower its duration, so it would require the ADC to constantly focus you during a fight, which is what you want as a sustain tank.

this is an interesting idea.

Teridax683 votes

No, I don't think it's fair, and hard-counter mechanics like Grievous Wounds and True Sight are why some champions have such a disparity in performance across rankings, as well as wonky balance on their kits. As long as hard counters exist in League, there will be balance issues around those mechanics where the systems they counter end up being overly strong in their "natural" state, as can be seen already with some healing champions and tanks in general (they need excessive armor to make up for Last Whisper negating almost half of the amount purchased on its own). Removing those effects altogether would likely be the better option, as it would focus the counters to those mechanics around proper, interactive gameplay, rather than shop-based rock-paper-scissors.

Thalassa3 votes

Karthus item 3814 item 3157 PENTAK---- Oh wait i didnt even do damage

dunder kill2 votes

cough item 3157 cough

13900 Essence18 votes

That makes everyone useless for a few seconds, including the person who uses it.

JavelinJoe5 votes

Karthus can still deal damage with his E i think. It also allows for abilities to come off of CD.

reaperteaser5 votes

same with Sol and fiddle and a few others

CurlyCrusader6 votes

Anivia, Swain, Morgana, Kennen. Probably more

Paquay2 votes

Think it works with Ryze realm warp too.

Catastrop1 votes

{quoted}

cough item 3157 cough

Yet when us as mage players say to get rid of the item and give us a better one that's fair and balanced, you bitch and moan about how "entitled" we are. Why don't you people shut the hell up and stop beating what is at this point, not even a dead horse, just a pile if dust.

Sire Hippington2 votes

When did you(mage players) ever say 'get rid of thonyas'? It's usually 'get rid of hextrinker' and 'give us more armor/ap options'. Now i'm certainly not vs more armor/ap options(and i'd love to have an armor/ad option once again aswell), but i can't recall any mage player saying 'get rid of zhonya's' ever.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Dethflash

3228 in 0.28 seconds
Gameplay113 comments
103
votes
league is unrewarding to positive players
Player Behavior81 comments
93
votes
If i cant, why can riot?
Gameplay30 comments
77
votes
We need more manual intervention in the report system
Gameplay28 comments
42
votes
Well Done Riot you did it again
Gameplay86 comments
24
votes
Cant craft any of the worlds gold chromas
Report a Bug16 comments
23
votes