Riot has managed to do another great rework for a champion, Urgot. Riot has been on a roll with their single champion reworks, Yorick, Galio, and now Urgot, if only Mordekaiser was on the list of future rework champions.
Vexilus8 votesIt all started with Sion he was the first major revamping of a champion in need that I remember and I still love him to this day while it's been a while since then and I can't really say for sure that all the VGU's up to date have been amazing I can say they've done justice to the majority if not all of the VGU champions
Wind Whistler2 votesLol... Done justice by removing them from the game? Are you kidding me? They day Sion was removed was the day my sanity began to decline, and if they ended up removing Urgot as well, I was 100% positive I'd completely lose it.
Vexilus2 votesare you saying you prefer green arnold swarzewhatsit over the pain train?
Wind Whistler2 votesare you saying you prefer green arnold swarzewhatsit over the pain train?
Actually, no. I prefer current Sion over old Sion, although not by much.
But I shouldn't have to "prefer" one over the other. They're both so different from each other, they could have just made a new champion. Instead, an existing champion was overwritten by a new one with the same name. THAT'S the problem I have with this.
TheSingularity2 votesThe issue with having old sion in the game, is that he then needs resources dedicated to him.
It simply wasn't worth their time to try and balance old sion. He had a horridly incoherent and poorly designed kit.... AP Q, HP W, AD ult. Which lead to him lacking identity and having to be taken into consideration when any item was changed (although I doubt he was). He simply didn't belong in riots' vision of league of legends. And tbh, I can't see where he'd fit in given the current game.
Wind Whistler1 votesHe was in a fairly decent spot balance wise, and he never really got out of control or anything, either. They also don't need to make skins for champions. They didn't ever give Yorick a skin. Q&A? Why would they need to do that? What does "overhauls" mean, exactly? Bugs, yeah, I guess there would be a few of those every now and then. Can't really argue with server, though.
As for everything else... Well, you're right. He was a relic of the past, and aged far worse than any other of these champions. Under no circumstances should he ever belong in the game in that state again. He may have been okay for 2009, but 2014 is a different time.
That being said, they didn't even TRY to work with him. They didn't try to give him a clearer identity. They didn't go with AP Sion. They didn't go with AD Sion. They made him a tank. What the hell? I remember the day they showed the relaunch. People who had previously been begging for an update were devastated. They basically said "This isn't what we asked for! This isn't what any of us wanted!", but it was already too late for them.
TheSingularity3 votesBy balance, he wasn't a problematic champ like fiora has been. But like master yi, he was intentionally gated in power due to how overbearing his kit was. Full AP sion had a nuke on a 5 second CD. Full crit could heal for 2K hp per auto. Similar to taric and WW with their point&click CC, he was an unhealthy stat stick.
See the flaws with the skins point. However think about the lack of skins, had new sion been released as a "new champ". Who would get mecha zero?
By overhauls, I mean the drastic changes (the jungle, reworks, items, things like vision/stat tweaks). Think about how much each pre season has trampled over what we could see clearly in the mud.
That being said, they didn't even TRY to work with him.
They likely did, relentlessly. They gave you a toned down version of his Q in his new E. His relentless charge was replaced with his ult and the W, while relatively unexciting stuck around. The likely conclusion was "there is no way to completely preserve this champ without him feeling like total shit". I mean look at poppy. How the hell do you preserve that old ultimate?
Pierce The Veal1 votesBy balance, he wasn't a problematic champ like fiora has been. But like master yi, he was intentionally gated in power due to how overbearing his kit was. Full AP sion had a nuke on a 5 second CD. Full crit could heal for 2K hp per auto. Similar to taric and WW with their point&click CC, he was an unhealthy stat stick.
See the flaws with the skins point. However think about the lack of skins, had new sion been released as a "new champ". Who would get mecha zero?
By overhauls, I mean the drastic changes (the jungle, reworks, items, things like vision/stat tweaks). Think about how much each pre season has trampled over what we could see clearly in the mud.
They likely did, relentlessly. They gave you a toned down version of his Q in his new E. His relentless charge was replaced with his ult and the W, while relatively unexciting stuck around. The likely conclusion was "there is no way to completely preserve this champ without him feeling like total shit". I mean look at poppy. How the hell do you preserve that old ultimate?
They could have preserved it if they tried. He was a hyper late game champion, all he really needed was his Q to not be point and click huge cc+nuke if AP, then rework mana costs a little as well as cooldowns, then give him a better way to get on people.
Nik Nikerson1 votesYes, they could have. And likely, still no one would have played him.
This is akin to hoarder mentality. Better save all these things no one wants or uses because maybe someone, some day will need a used toilet brush. There comes a point where some times you just need to let something go because it's not worth the cost of keeping it.
Pierce The Veal1 votes[{quoted}](name=Nik Nikerson,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aExARniy,comment-id=000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-07-08T20:08:11.983+0000)
Yes, they could have. And likely, still no one would have played him.
This is akin to hoarder mentality. Better save all these things no one wants or uses because maybe someone, some day will need a used toilet brush. There comes a point where some times you just need to let something go because it's not worth the cost of keeping it.
He didn't have that insignificant of a player base.
Heck, they could have reworked him to keep either the AD or AP version.
Heck, you see the new champion? They could have implemented something similar to pick whether you're AP or AD.
Instead, we have tank sion. Although tank Sion was a great addition to the game, it really didn't fit the original Sion.
Anu3isII1 votesThere are still some people who go Full AD+Lethality Sion. It is a risky play style, but viable.
Pierce The Veal1 votesThere are still some people who go Full AD+Lethality Sion. It is a risky play style, but viable.
I mean I guess. Not a GOOD play style, but definitely viable yes.
JSTIN81 votesI mean I'd give my right arm just to play Old AD sion again but new one was a perfect rework from a kit perspective
Pierce The Veal1 votesI mean I'd give my right arm just to play Old AD sion again but new one was a perfect rework from a kit perspective
Same here.
Electro5222 votesSion technically was the first. Yes, there were updates before then, like Karma, Olaf, and Sejuani; but Sion is really the first champ where they went balls to the wall, and basically released a brand new champ with the same name.
Galiö7 votesOld Galio was better though
Malicious Metal6 votesI respectfully disagree.
Galiö4 votes[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aExARniy,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-07-07T20:35:47.954+0000)
I respectfully disagree.
New Galio looks worse and only has one spell from his old kit. The old one was more unique as well.. Sad days.
Vexilus1 votesWhile the new galio isn't really bad in anyway
I really loved the old galio, and flash ulting into their team was the best and then there were the shenanigans with his W and the base tower laser beams
Arakadia1 votesCould you heal off them with your W?
AlienPrimate1 votesI tanked minions and one of the old inhibitor lasers for 48 seconds straight using Galio before his rework. In that custom game, I took 133k damage and healed for 93k.
After their removal, I could tank inhib towers indefinitely on Galio. With practice tool I took 386k damage and healed for 301k.
http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2425352901/209287161?tab=stats
Vexilus1 votesThe way his old W worked, while it was active on yourself or others Galio would get healed whenever the person with the W buff on them was damaged. The healing starts strong and diminishes as you continually take damage
the old inner base laser where beams that started out weak, and then got extremely strong should you stand in them long enough
So, his W with it's diminishing returns on healing + the tower lasers and they're weak starting damage = you could quite literally walk up to them with your W on yourself just so you could heal
If you built full ap you could go from 25% to upwards of 100% hp in about 2 seconds
Wind Whistler5 votes[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aExARniy,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2017-07-07T20:35:47.954+0000)
I respectfully disagree.
Whether you disagree with Old Galio being better or not, there's one thing you shouldn't be able to deny.
They completely butchered his visuals and voiceover.
Malicious Metal8 votesI prefer the new Visuals and Vo.
Sue me.
Wind Whistler5 votes[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aExARniy,comment-id=0005000000010000,timestamp=2017-07-07T21:43:56.900+0000)
I prefer the new Visuals and Vo.
Sue me.
I think I used an extremely terrible choice of words.
What I meant is that his visuals and voice don't resemble Galio at all- Not even in the slightest. Kit? It doesn't resemble it that much, but I think it resembles it enough. They did a good job with that, I won't lie. But there was no reason to completely change his visuals and voiceover. Update them? Yeah, of course. Whether anyone liked them or not, they were outdated (although his in game model wasn't as bad as people say), and NEEDED to be updated. Everything needs to be updated eventually. I'd just like it if Riot remembered that they're supposed to be updating a champion, not making an almost entirely new one.
Wind Whistler3 votesOld Galio was better though
Agreed. I still miss him to this day- I can't imagine what you feel.
Kneelbeforezoth2 votesummm did you miss the morde rework? and for the record galio and yorick are shit skillless trash
Shuyin1783 votesThe Juggernaut reworks were all failures. Besides, those were just minor gameplay reworks, not relaunches like the listed ones.
InfinitexMortal2 votesYeah the Kog Rework and the Ryze rework were brilliant....
Dethflash5 votesRyze is another story, and Kog wasnt a major VGU like Urgot, Sion, Galio, and WW. Kog was part of the adc group rework, which i would say most of the group reworks were a complete fail
rtbf2216514121 votesRyze is another story, and Kog wasnt a major VGU like Urgot, Sion, Galio, and WW. Kog was part of the adc group rework, which i would say most of the group reworks were a complete fail
I find Kog isn't as bad as people think he is, but you can't go by recommended build. Instead, you have to build around his W.
TheSingularity3 votesIs or was? He's currently fine. And he's always been built around W.
rtbf2216514121 votesIs or was? He's currently fine. And he's always been built around W.
He has always been built around his W? What?
Actually he has never been built around his W. He has been built around damage and/or sustain.
TheSingularity2 votesActually you're right, previously he was built around his R utilizing tri force.
However during his rework period, he was built around his W with on hit builds, similar to live due to 5.00 atk speed that was achievable. So for approx 2.5 years, his builds have revolved around W synergy. Before that it was all about 
rush and melting everything in sight.
Perhaps always revolved around his W? As in it being his bread and butter would've been where I came from.
Also still curious as to if it's you're opinion that people think kog is "as bad" currently, or during his rework period. As I haven't seen a kog complaint thread in quite a while.
rtbf2216514121 votesActually you're right, previously he was built around his R utilizing tri force. However during his rework period, he was built around his W with on hit builds, similar to live due to 5.00 atk speed that was achievable. So for approx 2.5 years, his builds have revolved around W synergy. Before that it was all about
Also still curious as to if it's you're opinion that people thing kog is "as bad" currently, or during his rework period. As I haven't seen a kog complaint thread in quite a while.
First off, I never said Kog was bad. In fact, I said the opposite.
Secondly, someone just said he was bad. Actually, more than one person in this very thread.
Thirdly, I'm talking based on keeping his W up as much as possible, which would require a different build entirely. It's not about the synergy. It's about the range and keeping W up.
TheSingularity2 votesas bad as people think he is
you
Also still curious as to if it's you're opinion that people think kog is "as bad" currently, or during his rework period. As I haven't seen a kog complaint thread in quite a while.
me
I never said that you thought he was bad, I was addressing the initial comment you made and you've misinterpreted.
So far the only thought other than you and me was that his rework was a "fail". That doesn't mean he's bad and I can't see any kog comments other than the ones above me. None say he is bad, just that his rework failed.
Thirdly, I'm talking based on keeping his W up as much as possible, which would require a different build entirely. It's not about the synergy. It's about the range and keeping W up.
That's pretty much how people have played kog since he was released. His W is his bread and butter, so you try to ensure it's available when needed due to how powerful the range and shred is grants is
rtbf2216514121 votesyou
me
I never said that you thought he was bad, I was addressing the initial comment you made and you've misinterpreted.
So far the only thought other than you and me was that his rework was a "fail". That doesn't mean he's bad and I can't see any kog comments other than the ones above me. None say he is bad, just that his rework failed.
That's pretty much how people have played kog since he was released. His W is his bread and butter, so you try to ensure it's available when needed due to how powerful the range and shred is grants is
Look at his build:
https://na.op.gg/champion/kogmaw/statistics/adc
Where in there do you see anything Trinity Force?
What about is about range and up time?
TheSingularity2 votesStart by quoting the right comment, that one states nothing about tri or botrk. Do not make a new discussion to distract from the one at hand. I stated
Before that it was all about
PAST TENSE.
My god stop looking for the first thing you can tear apart without thinking it through. Showing me a present tense statistic when I speak in past tense only displays your sheer stupidity
As for BOTRK up time, slowing them down allowing W to come off cooldown. And it's the most bought and highest win rate buy on kog adc. So you either disagree with your own statement (because the common items HAVE almost nothing to do with up time which you first emphasized, aside from the slow on botrk). Or, the more likely case, you're speaking out of your ass hole because you don't have a reasonable counter statement.
rtbf2216514122 votesAs for BOTRK up time, slowing them down allowing W to come off cooldown.
You can achieve the same results more reliably with these two items.
Also, read what I said. What you say and what I say are not compatible.
TheSingularity2 votesIn the link you sent me to prove your point, neither item shows up. So is it all about W uptime? Or is that just your opinion in the way you prefer to play kog maw. The average kog build using only items on the list I see has ZERO CDR.
tri force, the item you said "Where in there do you see anything Trinity Force?" has a 0.91% pick rate and a 55.59% win rate. Meanwhile reaver and cannon aren't in the core build, and aren't in the item lists.
So wtf was the point of this link? to counteract your own statement? Wtf was the point of your comment? To further show that you are speaking purely out of what you think kog maws do? You don't play kog maw, don't appear to have played any games of kog maw (ur riot history and OP.gg history/stats represent this). So exactly what are you basing this off? The few kogs used since you started? DURING HIS REWORK PERIOD where his W was EVERYTHING?
Go get your facts straight, play some season 3/4 kog maw and then maybe you'd have an idea about what I'm on about. All you've seen is the broken af kog maw. You never witnessed him during the juggermaw meta if I assume this is your main acc.
rtbf2216514121 votesIn the link you sent me to prove your point, neither item shows up. So is it all about W uptime? Or is that just your opinion in the way you prefer to play kog maw. The average kog build using only items on the list I see has ZERO CDR.
tri force, the item you said "Where in there do you see anything Trinity Force?" has a 0.91% pick rate and a 55.59% win rate. Meanwhile reaver and cannon aren't in the core build, and aren't in the item lists.
So wtf was the point of this link? to counteract your own statement? Wtf was the point of your comment? To further show that you are speaking purely out of what you think kog maws do? You don't play kog maw, don't appear to have played any games of kog maw (ur riot history and OP.gg history/stats represent this). So exactly what are you basing this off? The few kogs used since you started? DURING HIS REWORK PERIOD where his W was EVERYTHING?
Go get your facts straight, play some season 3/4 kog maw and then maybe you'd have an idea about what I'm on about. All you've seen is the broken af kog maw. You never witnessed him during the juggermaw meta if I assume this is your main acc.
Waiting for your pick rate and 'typical' build logic to line up.
rtbf2216514121 votesThere's the tri force pick rate. And core items that don't include cdr.
are the 6 most common full items. None have cdr
1% triforce pickrate =/= 40% typical build pickrate.
TheSingularity1 votesYou asked me where I saw it anywhere, indicating that it wasn't there at all.
The for-mentioned build still doesn't do anything about W up time as you stated kog was all about.
rtbf2216514121 votesYou asked me where I saw it anywhere, indicating that it wasn't there at all.
The for-mentioned build still doesn't do anything about W up time as you stated kog was all about.
Fine, I will take that correction. However, that was still not his 'typical' build.
And do I really need to explain the impact of CDR on his W?
Well I can't because there isn't enough room to click the items and I'm lazy to type them out.