Diving fighter rework: Mocking shout is a false choice and violates several Zileas' Anti-Patterns.

Critkeeper··3 votes·895 views
Zileas' List of Game Design Anti-Patterns - League of Legends Community

When you look at diving fighters, please consider replacing Tryndamere's mocking shout.

In order to deny the slow you have to turn around, but doing that would bring you closer to the Trynd slowing you.

The AD reduction skews matchups that should be harder for Trynd and is a ton of hidden power.

The ability itself just functions as cheap glue that holds together the rest of his kit. Tryndamere's success or failure being tied to a single ability like that effectively makes him extraordinarily one dimensional.

So the point of mocking shout is just to make the rest of Tryndamere actually functional. But if you think about it for a moment, there are a ton of ways to do that-- some better than others from a gameplay point of view and most better than mocking shout as is.

I know alot of Tryndamere players probably don't think there is anything wrong with mocking shout, but there is. It basically limits the strength RIOT can put into the rest of Tryndamere's kit because mocking shout offers no real option to the enemy when Tryndamere is strong. If it were replaced with something that had meaningful counterplay, the rest of Tryndamere's kit could be made stronger without pushing him over the top because opponents would have ways to play around him even when he is strong. In other words, mocking shout forces RIOT to keep Trynd relatively weak.

Imagine if Yasuo's windwall were replaced with mocking shout and the rest of his kit was given absurd numbers to make it work, how one dimensional and boring he would be-- in the matchups he wins he would just slow you and chop you down. Windwall is what makes Yasuo interesting because of how it interacts with his high mobility. I'm not suggesting we give Tryndamere a windwall, or that windwall is any less frustrating to play against than mocking shout-- in fact I think they are about equal in that regard. I'm saying that even if they are equal in frustration, windwall atleast makes it so that yasuo isn't so god damn boring.

Depending on the ability that replaces mocking shout, that means Tryndamere's "success story" doesn't have to involve using mocking shout and killing someone who has reduced ad and is slowed or die trying 100% of the time-- he might be able to contribute in a different way or engage differently, so he could have greater depth and be more interesting to play as and against because he wouldn't be so one-dimensional anymore. Depending on what mocking shout is replaced with, Trynd could afford to group a little more often so he wouldn't feel so one-dimensional to play with or against.

4 Comments

Woook3r1 votes

yes. tryndamere is a disgusting champion. I played this game for over a year before I learned that mock shout reduced your ad. I was constantly wondering how he was so tanky with only dmg items....but only when i played adc.

Quepha1 votes

Mocking shout isn't supposed to be a choice for the opponent, it's just a weird kind of skillshot. Like Cassiopeia's ult, hitting them so you get the enhanced cc means you did it right because it is strictly better, getting them when they're facing the wrong direction means you failed.

Critkeeper1 votes

{quoted}

Mocking shout isn't supposed to be a choice for the opponent, it's just a weird kind of skillshot. Like Cassiopeia's ult, hitting them so you get the enhanced cc means you landed the ability, getting them when they're facing the wrong direction means you failed.

Cassiopeias ult will either stun or heavily slow regardless of the direction faced. It reliably holds them down.

Tryndamere's mocking shout will not slow at all if you are facing towards him. The slow isn't reliable, so that aspect of it suffers from the non-reliability anti pattern while cassio's doesn't.

You can either turn and fight Trynd or run away-- if you run away you are slowed and killed, and no matter what you do you have reduced attack damage so you won't be able to fight Trynd anyway, thus a false choice-- another anti-pattern.

Is the shout supposed to help chase people or make you effectively tankier in attack trades? There is a conflicted purpose here.

Most people don't even know that Tryndamere's mocking shout reduces attack damage, let alone 80. Sometimes Trynd feels tanky to fight, sometimes he doesn't, but because the shout does two things it is difficult to associate Tryndamere's durability with his use of the shout. Its pretty much hidden from the average player and offers power without gameplay.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Cassiopeias ult will either stun or heavily slow regardless of the direction faced. It reliably holds them down.

Tryndamere's mocking shout will not slow at all if you are facing towards him. The slow isn't reliable, so that aspect of it suffers from the non-reliability anti pattern while cassio's doesn't.

You can either turn and fight Trynd or run away-- if you run away you are slowed and killed, and no matter what you do you have reduced attack damage so you won't be able to fight Trynd anyway, thus a false choice-- another anti-pattern.

Is the shout supposed to help chase people or make you effectively tankier in attack trades? There is a conflicted purpose here.

Most people don't even know that Tryndamere's mocking shout reduces attack damage, let alone 80. Sometimes Trynd feels tanky to fight, sometimes he doesn't, but because the shout does two things it is difficult to associate Tryndamere's durability with his use of the shout. Its pretty much hidden from the average player and offers power without gameplay.

But people know that Tryndamere wins if he gets in melee range without being locked down. They might not know the exact specifics of what buttons he presses, but if they die due to mocking shout they know "oh i got in melee range of a champion specialized at winning in melee range, i shouldn't do that next time"

It's not the best ability, but I don't think it's bad enough to call for a rework of some kind. The unreliability is also a source of counterplay and the chicken symbol is fairly iconic and people generally figure out what it means pretty easily.

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