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Real talk; Ryze will never be balanced as long as Riot tries to preserve his identity

Malicious Metal··112 votes·7,605 views

Ryze has always been a balancing nightmare. He's a mage Who's also a Hypercarry Who has Burst Who has DPS Who has BURST per second Who's moderately tanky Who has point and click targeted CC Who doubled dips in items because of his damage scaling off his Mana

The recent rework only added MORE stuff to his kit as he now even has a form of engage tool or rather a "Nope" button as well as actual WAVE CLEAR

Not only this but he manages to bully a lot of champions because his damage is just so outrageously high while also scaling really hard.

Let's face it, most of Ryze's identity is stuff that will never be able to be balanced since it's either broken and feels unfair to play against or is laughably weak. IMO Mages should make trade offs, lacking in DPS but having nice burst with usually moderately high cool downs and being rather easy to kill once you close the distance.

But Ryze is just a monster, especially in the hands of experienced players and Riot desperately clinging to this idea of mana based machine gun mage will never truly be balanced seeing that it's just so problematic. They should have just focused on making him the Rogue Mage and not just cling to gameplay mechanics that just seem so unfair and unbalanceable.

But hey, maybe it's only me and he's perfectly fine and healthy.

Like, the Ryze Rework Meme exists for a reason.

169 Comments

Danjeng85 votes

I guess you could say Ryze is...

OVERLOADED?

Doctor Dyment12 votes

Boo

Danjeng5 votes

-m

as Ryze Overloads the Fluxed team.

Sire Hippington21 votes

out of those listed things, only the point and click targeted CC is a real issue, and what you didn't list: A incredible dominant laneingphase and a semiglobal port.

Ryze right now is mostly so strong in high elos cause he can shove in most opponents once he got tear, as they can't trade against him and he has huge waveclear if he can prep the wave. After that, he can roam with his junger and use his targeted 2sec snare to create picks. And post 11, his ult opens up alot potential map-plays.

His teamfighting actually isn't that massive anymore, it's hard for him to deall any aoe damage, and a good frontline can bodyblock most of his damage while he needs to get quite close while beeing squishy without his shield, and any well timed cc can breake his combo and thus prevent the shield. It's really all about his early-midgame, and he obviously stays a damage threat later on, but has little aoe and a much harder time getting his damage on the right targets than he used to.

Who has BURST per second

Llike about every adc in the lategame aswell as any other hypercarrie....

Danjeng3 votes

What are you talking about? Ryze's late game is incredible. And his AoE multitarget damage is higher than before.

It was the previous Ryze who was an early-midgame lane bully, who excelled at beating down a single target. The new Ryze scales very hard with his new abilities giving % amplifications to damage and MS. The old one just had flat numbers.

Sire Hippington9 votes

Vs good oponents, it's increadible hard to spread out your damage, especially if they have a strong frontline. He's a monster 1v1 and in skirmishes, as his damage potential is huge and he can also be quite hard to kill with the shield+ms procs. But in teamfights, it's pretty hard for him to make proper use of his kit without getting cced and focused down. If his team is in controll, he can be devastateing, but once the opposing team is in the driver seat, he really struggles. It's his strong lane and roams for skilled players that ensure his team gets and stays in controll.

Danjeng1 votes

You are correct, smart enemies will avoid flux from spreading. But Ryze is not as bad at team fights as you think! His new ultimate can reposition his team. Also Flux can be used to zone away enemies from their protectors (like Braum, who jumps to his carries).

It all boils down to playstyle. He could be a 1v1 skirmisher like you said, but he could also be a devastating mage who wreaks havoc on a whole team. I think that was what OP metal man was complaining about: he excels at a lot of things. Too much maybe.

BTW I'm proud to have Malicious Metal post about my main, even if it is pointing out how cancerous he is. If only the -10% MS and -50 shielding on Ryze could be +MS/shielding transferred over to Mordeman. The Law of Conservation of MOBA Stats says it should, and Morde could use it.

Sire Hippington4 votes

I'm not saying he's bad in teamfights, but he has to play them more like an adc, carefully approach and force his way through the frontline first for msot of it. He's still scarry, but compared to his older itterations or true teamfight mages like victor or orianna, he's not exactly a teamfight monster.

Troll for Trump2 votes

only the point and click targeted CC

But we need things like that; only way to reliably deal with mobility monsters like Yasuo/Ekko or whatnot

Sire Hippington2 votes

I'm not against reliable hard cc in generall, but haveing something like that is very powerfull, and one has to pay the price for that. Just how hyper mobile champs need to pay a price for there mobillity, and sadly not all currently do so.

Lissandra is a good example right now, the one instant hard cc is selfcentered with ~300 range, the other is her ult, so on a long cd, and sacrifices her main defensive tool(ult selfcast) for the lockdown, and her overall damage is more on the low side for mages.

Ryze is a high dps spam caster that gets comparably tanky, the point n click on top of that is just to much, especially as it leads the 'counterplay' to his now skillshot Q ad absurdum, as you don't need much skill to shoot a snared target. Ryze needs to either be the hyper damage mage, or one of those with the targeted cc, both together leads to issues.

Same with Annie to be honest, for such an reliable kit with reliable hard aoe cc, she just offers to much damage.

Ralanr10 votes

...but I like Ryze.

Guy Fox Teemo7 votes

Ryze is balaned though O.o

He's in one of the most balanced states he's ever been. I don't see the problem...

Its also probably only you since you main Morde and anybody with hard CC fucks Morde over.

Sona x Rubick5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aFaWHPZH,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-17T14:07:56.333+0000)

He's a mage Who's also a Hypercarry Who has Burst Who has DPS Who has BURST per second Who's moderately tanky Who has point and click targeted CC Who doubled dips in items because of his damage scaling off his Mana

The problem with ryze isn't his kit, The burst can be removed and this will balance him while still being a hypercarry The new ryze isn't that tanky lmfao, 2012 ryze used to be as tanky as rammus while having the current damage ryze has

And with this rework ryze's w has a really freaking long cooldown that can't be reduced by other spells like how it used to be, so i think that's balanced

the rework solved many issues, but added a new one: -waveclear

that's a huge issue and they added this to leblanc (which they are nerfed on pbe) FOR NO REASON

why does his E spreads if he uses multiple E? why does his Q goes to nearby units under E? this is free power for nothing, and it's not something small, it's literally gamebreaking

TLDR: new rework solved things unlike previous reworks, and the balance team just has to move their ass to balance ryze: -remove the waveclear thing -reduce the burst of ryze -rework his ulti this one is my opinion but as an old ryze main i'll never play him again just because of this ulti that has nothing to do here

TyrekGoldenspear1 votes

Isn't waveclear a skill that every mage has to an extent?

Sona x Rubick1 votes

Nop, not every mages have waveclear Annie Swain Lux Cassiopeia Kassadin

and not every mages have waveclear at lvl 3

And ryze strengths were designed to be balanced by his lack of waveclear, especially his early game, it should be trash for his late game but now with his waveclear in early game he can survive easily

Malicious Metal4 votes

Annie has pretty good wave clear, so does Swain and Lux. The thing is that their Wave clear is slower than Ryze's and Ryze can wave clear AND trade since it spreads the damage.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Not until he gets a few items.

Ryze's early waveclear requires proper timing and will eat his mana pool quickly.

Not to mention he doesn't even have the damage to one shot the wave until way later.

vladz2k3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona x Rubick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aFaWHPZH,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-12-17T14:33:39.403+0000)

Nop, not every mages have waveclear Annie Swain Lux Cassiopeia Kassadin

and not every mages have waveclear at lvl 3

And ryze strengths were designed to be balanced by his lack of waveclear, especially his early game, it should be trash for his late game but now with his waveclear in early game he can survive easily

good luck waveclearing with ryze at level 3, tell me when you'll run out of mana.

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

I tried to waveclear at lvl 3 when I tried out the new Ryze. Once.

I have never seen somebody run out of mana with a tear so fast

Cresmont4 votes

he seems healthy rn, simple yet hard, and even if he can carry, he is still ss reliant and his point and click cc does close to no dmg so honestly imo, hes fine rn :D

RavenMagus7 votes

His point and click CC does no damage but the follow up Q (which will always hit you because you got CC'd by a point and click) does about a billion damage.

Ryze is a nightmare to lane against right now. If he has any mana at all you simply cannot fight him. He charges his E up on minion waves, and if you get close you get tagged for a free damage burst from his Q; if you get around the minion wave to him, he shoots his Q, gets a huge shield + movespeed boost, then roots+E+Q's you for good burst damage and another huge shield + movespeed boost almost instantly after the first one.

You just can't trade with him. Your only hope is to waveclear or poke from outside his range, and a lot of champions simply can't do that.

Dameshi4 votes

An idea on how to keep his identity while fixing him.

So Riot wants a mage who scales with mana. Fine, keep it. Here is my idea on how to keep it balanced.

Remove all other scaling. No AP scaling, only mana. Keep the scaling low, keep the base damage low. Add more utility to his kit. Make him a sustained damage, utility mage, who will be moderately tanky due to itemization with mana scaling, rather than this abomination of high burst/dps we have now.

Danjeng3 votes

Mana is not a significant portion of Ryze's damage. Also, like the other guy said, what will he build? RoA, Seraph's, Morellonomicon are all mana items that give AP, now useless. Is Ryze just going to build A Frozen Heart/Gauntlet? Then what.

Nami in Bush3 votes

He's a high skill-cap mage, similar to Cassiopeia Kalista Azir AurelionSol Syndra Yasuo Fiora Bard . They are all cancerous to deal with in lower elo when an experienced person gets their hands on them. Ryze is at a 43% win rate, what more do you want? lmao. He's fine where he is, he is extremely tricky to play in the late game.

Blåbæret1 votes

[{quoted}](name=This Urgot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aFaWHPZH,comment-id=0023,timestamp=2016-12-18T01:06:32.413+0000)

He's a high skill-cap mage, similar to Cassiopeia Kalista Azir AurelionSol Syndra Yasuo Fiora Bard . They are all cancerous to deal with in lower elo when an experienced person gets their hands on them. Ryze is at a 43% win rate, what more do you want? lmao. He's fine where he is, he is extremely tricky to play in the late game.

Ryze is the opposite of high skillcap, his point and click root makes sure of that. It needs to go tbh.

Nami in Bush5 votes

{quoted}

Ryze is the opposite of high skillcap, his point and click root makes sure of that. It needs to go tbh.

13 sec CD 0.5 second root. Ok. If he was so OP and easy to play, he'd have higher than 43% win rate

Requiemsfire3 votes

What kind of argument is that when the difference between a dedicated Ryze and someone just starting Ryze is an entire universe apart? Ryze is high skill capped,

Agent Corgi3 votes

I almost never see Ryze now a days, but it is true that an experienced Ryze can & will ruin your day if you don't dumpster him in the early-mid game.

grug2 votes

ryze was probably the most balanced in his last iteration

i also believe the previous winrate was way lower.

this version of ryze is crazy, especially what appears to be infinite chain wave clearing mid-late game that can spread to enemy heroes.

statelesskiller3 votes

before ryze was imbalanced because he could deal fuck tons of damage to you AND get a shield

now though he has to choose "do i want shield. or fuck tons of damage?" he needs to EEQ or EWQ before he can get a shield which sacrifices damage output of QEQWQEQ. this combo doesn't get a shield but unloads a significant amount of damage in a small frame of time

Danjeng5 votes

QEWQEQ

There. Damage, shield, and enhanced root. No weakness in this combo. No tradeoffs.

Dragon Master8 votes

{quoted}

QEWQEQ

There. Damage, shield, and enhanced root. No weakness in this combo. No tradeoffs.

QEQWQEQ is his strongest single target combo.

Danjeng7 votes

You miss one empowered Q for a shield, MS, and empowered root. QEWQEQ is the most versatile combo. The movement speed and extended root allows you to follow up with an additional E Q.

Arakadia2 votes

There is a weakness. Its the fact it takes much longer then most combos.

Starboyˇ2 votes

short range, takes a long time

MonkeyMadness2 votes

wtf is burst per second???

Hella Kaiser1 votes

draven's axes are a good exemple. good attackspeed with 1500 crits.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

Basic definitions guys. Damage can either be burst or dps, never both simultaneously...

Hella Kaiser1 votes

nah, it can dps in bursts of dmg.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

By that logic every burst mage and assassin are dps. See how that's dumb? If you deal damage with a spell combo, even a very simple one like ryze's, you are a burst damage dealer. Burst means you deal a lot of damage upfront and then you have a period (however short) of downtime during which you are not a significant threat. This describes ryze, his downtime is just very short compared to other burst champs.

FantasySniper2 votes

TwistedFate Fiora Ezreal Yasuo Evelynn Karthus KogMaw

Burst per Second: A method of damage characterized by short-cooldown damage spells, typically 5 or less seconds, even if achieved through cooldown reduction methods. You've probably more commonly heard it called "sustained burst" or "continuous burst".

Champions like those above are well known for their damage potential being delivered between small intervals. Kog'Maw may already be DPS, but his ultimate also makes him BPS. Cassiopeia, although her cooldowns are very short, is more of a magic DPS like Kayle.

MonkeyMadness2 votes

You are still describing burst damage though. You even used the word "burst" in your descriptions. DPS is dealing damage at "regular" intervals (ie auto attacks or a DoT). Burst is a chunk of damage that can only be used when certain spells/abilities are off of cooldown. Even if you can use your burst combo ever 5 seconds or so (like Ryze), it's still burst. And as for Kog, what? AD kog'maw (aka DPS kog'maw) deals minimal damage with his ult, so you really can't refer to this as burst. Also, given that the cooldown is so short and that he can deal significant damage in between ult shots, his ult is in no way a burst, rather it is simply extra dps.

FantasySniper3 votes

Except this is how it works in this game.

DPS is constant damage, like ADCs, Fiddlesticks, Kayle, etc. You'll also commonly hear "rapid-fire" as an extreme. Burst is strong, but shortly applied, damage, like most Mages, and Assassins. You'll also commonly hear "nuke" as an extreme.

Burst per Second (BPS) is "sustained burst", like Twisted Fate, Ezreal, Ryze, etc. It's not always a constant that they have their damage up, but its almost as if it is with how low their cooldowns are. This is the place in-between the more distinct damage types.

In other [more traditional] games, you call literally anything that deals damage "DPS", but in this PvP-exclusive game, there's a clear distinction between damage types, and when that distinction becomes blurred, that's when we call it "Burst per Second".

Kog'Maw can do upwards of 50 to 100 BPS with his ult at lower levels. This goes up to 180 to 360 BPS at higher levels. That isn't "minimal", it's actually around one-third of his damage output. Unlike his basic attacks, it isn't constant, so it can't correctly be considered DPS.

Like it or not, this is a common enough term on the boards. You also hear it often used to describe burst-fire weapons in other games that don't fire constantly, but instead in bursts.

MonkeyMadness1 votes

This is entirely wrong.

TF is burst. He stuns, he throws a wild card, big chunk of damage, and then he kites away with piddly damage from AAs while he waits for his pick a card to come off cd. Ryze is burst. Without his full combo, his damage is lackluster at best. Ezreal is dps with short cooldown poke, that is often short enough to be considered a part of his dps. Notice how there is no blurring of distinction here, I just confidently called all these so called "bps" champs either dps or burst. You cannot be both simultaneously. Some champs might be able to pull off a burst combo AND dps, but they will be separate. Example: Azir has a definite harass combo that results in a "burst" of damage, but the bulk of his damage is reliant on autoattacks, which is the definition of a dps champ in this game.

FantasySniper2 votes

Like I said: Like it or not, this is a common enough term on the boards. This is an actual term used to describe short-interval bursts, because there's no better way to describe it.

FantasySniper2 votes

I think he's as healthy as he's ever been.

They just need to reduce his initial burst, maybe by replacing Overload's Flux bonus with a flat cooldown reduction, getting rid of the absurd "reset with another basic ability" passive.

ntbcool2 votes

It really isn't absurd him having the reset mechanic on his Q. Ryze's Q E W on their own do no damage, they are complete trash. The only way for him to deal any kind of meaningful damage requires him to E his enemy(giving them an obvious warning that hes gonna engage on them) and then land his Q on that target. not being able to e>q people constantly with ryze would make him the most useless champion in the game. It would almost half his damage.

FantasySniper3 votes

Or. OR...

You [Q], reset with [E], hit them with another [Q], proc'ing the Rune bonus, then [W], then another [Q].

That's where his burst comes from. The [Q] reset.

I'm not saying he wouldn't need compensation, but if you want a sustained damage mage to be healthy, they actually can't have that much burst.

ntbcool1 votes

but u seem to under estimate how difficult that makes Ryze. You have to pick a target, give them a warning, and then land a skill shot on specifically them. if you just made it were e and q how shorter cooldowns and did damage independent of each other he would be much more powerful cause all you would have to do is Q from a distance to poke and then e when they get close to you.

FantasySniper2 votes

Landing all that in quick succession isn't that hard. It's literally just one cast time after another, and only [Q] is a skillshot. If need be, you can switch around the [W] and [E] to maintain control, this is just the fastest way to deliver damage.

The whole point of forcing Ryze to combo for damage is that he can't poke with a single ability in the first place. Letting him poke for obscene levels of damage just makes him oppressive when he still has a targeted CC that can instantly punish anyone with a shorter range.

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