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Remove "jungle" as a position from Silver and Bronze

Magic Mo··1 votes·840 views

Let's get some things out of the way before I make my main points:

Yes, I think jungle is a difficult position and is probably the most difficult position even in high elo aside from mid lane. Yes, I am a jungle main and I MIGHT be patting my own ego by claiming it's the most difficult position in low elo. Yes, I consider myself really damn good in the jungle (no matter the patch).

Lately I've been spectating lots of my silver/bronze friends. And I watch knowing that "that noob probably hasn't wasted 2 years of his life on this game... like me" so I understand that people are going to be worse than me. No harm there. Except this new patch was just... bad? I mean I would like to pick and choose what I hate and what I love, but overall it just feels like a substantial nerf to junglers. There's no standard "bot lane buff start, camp in between, other buff start, gank top/mid at level 3" pattern--Hell, there's NOTHING standard about the new jungle. We have sustain, we have FF (now devourer) farmers, and we still have Lee Sin.

This isn't a "let's-bitch-about-Lee" thread, but I definitely do wanna bitch about the new patch and offer POSSIBLE solutions. I'm sure even the most in-the-dark League players have noticed that the jungle makes your champion go owwie. Riot wanted to make sustain and ranged champions possible while still keeping gank champions relevant, but in 4.20 they noticed that they probably went too damn far (I mean, jungle TF? Really?) so in 4.21 kiting and all the bull is harder and camps are yet harder to kill. Great. Except Silver/Bronze don't have the knowledge/experience to kite a camp backwards.

And, guess what? Buying 16 champions costs a LOT of IP. I remember when I hit level 30, I think I had 4 rune pages and 10 champions. Safe to say shit's really expensive if you're not willing to pay through the nose with RP (and even then, we're talking about a decent amount of USD). So what happens when a League player plays a champion he's played 5 games with starts a ranked with wrong/incomplete runes and doesn't kite his camp correctly or just can't? He dies. Great. I'll admit it, as a plat player on my level 15 smurf, I would die several times to my camp as Warwick/Amumu because I thought I didn't have to kite backwards at half HP. Yeah, I could've tried harder (like not been playing while I'm sleepy af) but it was just a normals and we would win anyway, which I knew.

The thing is, though, Bronze/Silver players get executed in the new jungle CONSTANTLY. I remember BEFORE pre-season when I was in Silver there would probably be an execution 1/20 games--meaning bad players already were being punished by Riot. Now? It's safe to say that if a low elo jungler doesn't get executed, he'll go top lane to give the enemy a double kill. Pretty much in low elo, the jungle is a BIG non-factor and it's not much about "who can make more stuff happen around the map?" as much as it is about "who can die less around the map?" Pretty much whichever team carries harder or whichever jungler dies less will win the game.

So there are several options to fix shit, each with trade-offs:

  1. Fix your god-damn preseason Riot. It's not newb-friendly. At ALL. If I had to jungle in my first Normals, I think I'd quit League before I even started. Still, it's easier said than done. I'll admit, it's quite fun to play ranked without seeing Lee Sin every game, but there's just too much shit to keep track of now, completely disregarding the fact that you have to kite backwards WHILE thinking about all that shit. Make the jungle easy again and just buff all junglers? If your argument is that you want any champion to jungle, then why can't any champion ADC? Or top? Or mid/support? Because niches exist, whether you want them or not.

  2. Remove the jungle position completely by making only 4 players allowed on the map and removing jungle items and smite for Bronze/Silver players. Really simple and I think it's a pretty great idea. Only downside is that the support MIGHT pick something stupid like a Fiddle and just go full yolo in the jungle without smite (basically, just not play support at all and go jungle). I'm not sure how to "counter" stuff like this when it happens--we could remove all jungle camps too but that seriously limits the pace of the game. As it is, low elo games go on a LONG ass time without us limiting the amount of gold they get.

I'm open to new ideas and/or perspectives, but know that the current jungle is just really god-awful (yes, worse than the last one D:).

tl;dr New jungle is hard af and not noob friendly. Discuss ideas.

6 Comments

Cale0172 votes

Sorry pal but I'm probably a low elo jungler, I'm unranked by choice, and I'm a jungle main who doesn't get executed and doesn't feed double kills.

Silver and Bronze aren't accurate representations of a person's abilities in the game, hate to break it to you. If you're a platinum then you should be able to understand as well how the lower ranks are nothing but a grind fest. It isn't the people who are the most skilled who get out of Bronze and Silver, it's the people who can grind ranked matches long enough to get the right mix of variables working in their favor in an elo where people are generally more worried about their pesonal KDA than the number of turrets left on the map or how many dragons have been secured.

Trying to make a 4 man mode on a 5v5 map is just plain idiotic, sorry. And all you'd end up doing if you tried to implement something like that is make people drop the Support position, forcing bot lane into a solo lane between ADCs, because people are still going to want to jungle.

Not to mention, condescending. People should have equal access to mechanics in a match. If you remove lower elos' abilities to play the jungle role or build jungle items, by the time they get to Gold they won't know what to build or where, they won't know what sort of benchmarks they should be hitting as junglers, they won't have that different mindset that junglers develop as oversight in a match. They won't have practiced and refined their synergy, knowing which junglers work best with which teamcomps, and their critical thinking and judgement making skills will be severely lacking. Just because someone lower than you isn't making the same choices you make doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to try.

It means you should help them learn.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

Sorry pal but I'm probably a low elo jungler, I'm unranked by choice, and I'm a jungle main who doesn't get executed and doesn't feed double kills.

Silver and Bronze aren't accurate representations of a person's abilities in the game, hate to break it to you. If you're a platinum then you should be able to understand as well how the lower ranks are nothing but a grind fest. It isn't the people who are the most skilled who get out of Bronze and Silver, it's the people who can grind ranked matches long enough to get the right mix of variables working in their favor in an elo where people are generally more worried about their pesonal KDA than the number of turrets left on the map or how many dragons have been secured.

Trying to make a 4 man mode on a 5v5 map is just plain idiotic, sorry. And all you'd end up doing if you tried to implement something like that is make people drop the Support position, forcing bot lane into a solo lane between ADCs, because people are still going to want to jungle.

Not to mention, condescending. People should have equal access to mechanics in a match. If you remove lower elos' abilities to play the jungle role or build jungle items, by the time they get to Gold they won't know what to build or where, they won't know what sort of benchmarks they should be hitting as junglers, they won't have that different mindset that junglers develop as oversight in a match. They won't have practiced and refined their synergy, knowing which junglers work best with which teamcomps, and their critical thinking and judgement making skills will be severely lacking. Just because someone lower than you isn't making the same choices you make doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to try.

It means you should help them learn.

This post should be getting upvotes. Yes, you've seen junglers do terribly, but there are going to be good junglers in lower elo or there'd be nobody to be good junglers in higher elo. You can't deny someone the chance to jungle pre-Gold and then expect them to be competent junglers when they hit gold. It can't work.

Cale0172 votes

{quoted}

Sorry pal but I'm probably a low elo jungler, I'm unranked by choice, and I'm a jungle main who doesn't get executed and doesn't feed double kills.

Silver and Bronze aren't accurate representations of a person's abilities in the game, hate to break it to you. If you're a platinum then you should be able to understand as well how the lower ranks are nothing but a grind fest. It isn't the people who are the most skilled who get out of Bronze and Silver, it's the people who can grind ranked matches long enough to get the right mix of variables working in their favor in an elo where people are generally more worried about their pesonal KDA than the number of turrets left on the map or how many dragons have been secured.

Trying to make a 4 man mode on a 5v5 map is just plain idiotic, sorry. And all you'd end up doing if you tried to implement something like that is make people drop the Support position, forcing bot lane into a solo lane between ADCs, because people are still going to want to jungle.

Not to mention, condescending. People should have equal access to mechanics in a match. If you remove lower elos' abilities to play the jungle role or build jungle items, by the time they get to Gold they won't know what to build or where, they won't know what sort of benchmarks they should be hitting as junglers, they won't have that different mindset that junglers develop as oversight in a match. They won't have practiced and refined their synergy, knowing which junglers work best with which teamcomps, and their critical thinking and judgement making skills will be severely lacking. Just because someone lower than you isn't making the same choices you make doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to try.

It means you should help them learn.

Really, downvotes?

Alright, all you Golds, Diamonds, and Plats out there. Have fun wading through thousands of unskilled junglers when they manage to break out of Bronze and Silver and have no idea how to handle ganks or objective control and consequently cause you losses. Maybe losing a few ranks will set your egos straight.

Centuros1 votes

In silver/bronze duo top is probably a really great strategy if the opponent has a jungler. I know I personally have no idea how to exist in a 1v2 top, especially if I don't have a good way to kill minions from a distance.

SouL1ess1 votes

That's because Riot's balancing strategies depended on the meta existing. Lanes are balanced based on champion interactions, e.g. 1v1 at Top and Mid and 2v2 at bot. When there's a duo top the balance falls apart.

A duo top is not the most effective way to allocate the game's available resources because the jungle is easy and a relatively large group of champions can do it with smite (by that, I mean get through jungle without dying every time to camps), but it does provide it's own advantages.

ImHerVoice1 votes

Jungle is the most STRESSFUL position. moba's aren't difficult to play. I mean you're literally controlling 1 character. Have you even played an RTS before? lol Like... lol These games are easy, there's just alot of casuals that make it seem like its actually difficult to learn a moba. The hardest curve for any moba is the champion kits/itemization/learning the map. The rest should be really obvious and you just gain from playing. Good decision making can be common sense to most people after a couple hundred games.

Mechanics are just gained through actual playing/ Its basically like going from stick shift to automatic or using a different type of car (car to truck.. truck to van... etc) You're used to the feeling of the engine or a stick shift etc. Just takes time to get used to.

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