Anybody else think the anti-toxicity bandwagon is getting out of hand?

Magic Mo·5/21/2015, 6:45:06 PM·9 votes·1,405 views

This is referring to this (for those of you who don't already know): http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/player-behavior/new-player-reform-system-heads-testing

That post highlights some already existing problems with Tribunal. Take this quote, for instance:

"The system delivers reform cards (notifications that link evidence of negative behavior with the appropriate punishment) that help players address their negative behavior. Your reports help the instant feedback system understand and punish the kind of verbal harassment the community actively rejects: homophobia, racism, sexism, death threats, and other forms of excessive abuse."

One major problem with the system is that it's banning people, permanent or otherwise, and nobody might even be affected by the causes of that ban. For instance, some guy rolls into a game and he's being very unpleasant in team chat. Maybe not using swearwords, say, but playing with the person is a real chore. This happens in 5 consecutive games. Now the "new and improved" system shows up and bans the dude for 2 weeks, citing where he consistently displayed a negative attitude. But the reason this person thought he could continue was because nobody seemed bothered to report this person! People would just mute this person instead. And all 5 of those games were victories, and nobody even reported the guy, yet he still got banned.

If we compare this to the court of law, the system is just laughable. There's just a defendant with no plaintiff. The charges are as follows: use of foul language is bad because it's bothering people, despite the fact that there's absolutely no evidence to suggest a single person was bothered.

Another major problem is that the "report" button is used more as a rage outlet than anything. Say there's a 4-man premade, and one random. Now the random isn't typing that much but he's CLEARLY upset that one of the guys from the 4-man isn't ganking his oh-so precious lane. This is blatant from the way he keeps spamming pings on the jungler over and over. The jungler doesn't respond to him at all, but he's joking around with his friends in team chat about things unrelated to the game. He (the jungler) starts using swearwords with his friends. After the game ends, the random reports the jungler for toxicity, and boom the jungler gets banned. "Well, the jungler shouldn't have been toxic." And where exactly was he being toxic? Clearly he was messing around with his friends. If his friends had reported him, then the ban would be justified, but the bottom line is that that's not what happened and some guy who was the actual raging kid got what his teenage revenge.

Let's not forget how awfully inconsistent Riot has been with these punishments. Here's a link to a post I made in the eSports section that didn't get as many views (and I give some solutions to as what Riot can do to improve these inconsistencies, like updating the Summoner's Code frequently): http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/esports/vOJAMANW-why-punishing-people-for-toxicity-is-a-pain-in-the-ass-for-everybody-including-riot

tl;dr There are several problems with Riot's system. Toxicity isn't a matter of simple kitten-drowning evil and tree-hugging good. Things like this shouldn't be left to a machine to decide.

37 Comments

Tryhard Mittens5/21/2015, 7:36:41 PM6 votes

I don't know what country you guys are living in, but the victim does not have to press charges in order for someone to get in trouble with the law. For example, if you go and hit someone with a car and kill them, and that person has no family, the state will still press charges. The victim is not necessary to determine that you did something wrong as long is there is sufficient evidence. A witness to a policy infraction, along with the chat logs, is more than enough to determine that someone broke the rules and regulations of League.

That being said, you could easily argue that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. I would argue that instead of banning someone who does these things, they could scale the punishment:

  1. Warning
  2. Warning - In game mute for a week
  3. 1 week Ban
  4. 1 month Ban
  5. Perma Ban

Then they could make the severity drop a level for 6 months of good behavior or something.

MetalGearTeemu5/21/2015, 7:12:05 PM3 votes

Man it was just trash talk, the guy wasn't even offended, its part of the game

"You poor internalized bullying soul, you don't know enough to be offended by this guys clear evil, so I will be offended and report on your behalf. "

is more or less the mindset at work here. People are too thin skinned in this game in general,

Live2LetDie5/21/2015, 6:55:47 PM3 votes

Just because everyone muted him does not mean his attitude is less toxic.. If i am spewing profanity in chat, even if no one is listening, i am still being toxic.

Amrinder65/21/2015, 7:30:18 PM2 votes

Nah reporting to me is pretty dumb, I mean there's a mute button! Use it! I cant stress that enough. Besides if someone is being toxic ignore them and dont say anything back! Reporting should be used in really serious terms like racism, not trash talk. Just ignore

Drunk Rummate5/21/2015, 7:50:17 PM1 votes

{quoted}

Another major problem is that the "report" button is used more as a rage outlet than anything.

What makes you say this? I use it to report the people who've bothered me. That's its intended function. If someone is bothering you, then you have the right to report them for it. Whether they get punished for it is up to the system, and we need a system because there are children (and some adults, I suppose) who will run their mouth forever if there aren't consequences.

This game is appealing to me because I feel like I can get through a game without 100 cuss words, insults, or otherwise toxic behavior. And I can get through games without that because Riot is good about weeding those people out, or at least chat restricting them.

You say people may not be "offended" by a particular person, and simply mute them? Well if I had to mute you then you've already had a negative effect on me. A big enough one that I took the time to shut you up.

Magic Mo5/21/2015, 8:16:15 PM1 votes

"The system does not just look at words, and tries to learn phrases. In fact, "gg easy" is considered a very negative phrase by the system today." -Dr. Lyte (quote found in the comment section of the announcement I posted)

If that isn't out of hand, I have absolutely no clue what is.

djjomon5/21/2015, 8:26:30 PM1 votes

To each of your points:

If the system gets so sophisticated that it bans players who aren't being reported, it's either working extremely well, or will be disabled. Despite popular opinion, Riot does watch their systems.

If a player displayed a negative attitude in 5 consecutive games, even if they're victories, I don't want to be in the 6th. If he gets banned over 5 games, he deserved it.

If a player gets a chat restriction or temp ban due to excessive cursing, but no one seems to be bothered and no one reports, does that make it okay? Maybe. If he's just saying "fuck" here and there, after losing a teamfight, giving up a dragon, or whatever, and he gets banned for it. Okay, that's not good. But there's an appeal system for that (yes there actually is). But moving away from your specific case, and onto what Riot actually said, and you quoted: "homophobia, racism, sexism, death threats, and other forms of excessive abuse," those buzzwords will result in auto-bans. And even if no one's bothered by it, those examples are not okay. It doesn't take being butthurt to result in the butthurt-er being punished.

As for friends fucking around, but getting punished for it, a similar case to this happened at least once that I know of. A player was being constantly toxic in chat, in many games. He got a heavy punishment, might've been a perma ban. The weird thing about it? He was being toxic to himself. All of the "fuck yous" or "you sucks" he was saying, he was directing at himself. He went to Riot and appealed the ban, explaining he was only complaining to himself. Riot looked at case and reversed the ban. They then publicly admitted their mistake, detailing the case and resulting actions. I saw it on GD before Boards took over.

Your article on eSports is self-contradictory. And it contradicts this one as well. It's a chore to ban people, but it happens anyway. The smallest ounce of toxic behavior can result in a perma ban. But it doesn't because it's a chore? And on Incarnati0n's ban being lifted. This proves Riot actually allows ban appeals, and will reverse a ban if behavior improves. Therefore, even the average player can improve his/her behavior, and get a ban lifted. Make a new account, turn over a new leaf, go to Riot.

You're literally picking and choosing extreme cases that fit your (lack of an) argument. Incarnati0n wasn't banned from soloq, he was banned from official events. But his soloq behavior improved and his ban was lifted. Meanwhile, you're saying the average player saying "fuck" multiple times after making his own mistakes is in danger of serious punishment.

DrNova5/21/2015, 8:41:21 PM1 votes

My biggest issue is perma bans. It would have to be some pretty extreme verbal toxicity in my opinion to warrent an auto ban.

If someone calls me a dumbass, loser, i should install, i suck, well he is an asshole, but doesnt deserve an auto ban.

Depends how the system works.

BluePolarizer5/21/2015, 9:17:18 PM1 votes

Ragers and toxics need to be banned.

I had a top laner ('top only') 2 games ago rage at me and bot lane the whole game as "useless feeders" when I was 4-2, bot lane was collectively 8-1 and he was 1-8. Not only that, he called us racist names and mentally disabled, intent fed the enemy team with 15 deaths and 0 assists, built full damage (while dealing zero of it due to dying instantly) and ran around counterjungling our own team and delivering our jungle buffs straight to the enemy carries.

This was a plat game. We won eventually. If he was kicked and we played a 4v5, we would've won 20 minutes earlier.

There is no fking way that such behavior is acceptable in ranked. You might not be so lucky. You might not be as lucky as I was to have 3 other players that were very strong, very competent and very calm in the face of such idiocy. Your opponents might not be so easily stompable. How would you feel if you got a free loss due to a racist intent feeder that spams "gg" in chat? If all he was, was bad, that would've been an easy game. Just build tanky, accept that you are bad, and let us carry you. No. You have to intent feed, you have to waste whatever little income you have to build damage, then you fking deliver the buffs straight to the enemy carries. The fk.

Ban these fking morons. Toxics make the game 1000x harder than mere bads.

The Queen Viper5/21/2015, 7:41:24 PM1 votes

{quoted}

But the reason this person thought he could continue was because nobody seemed bothered to report this person! People would just mute this person instead. And all 5 of those games were victories, and nobody even reported the guy, yet he still got banned.

And? What is the problem here exactly? Just because people are too lazy to report sometimes, doesn't mean those douchebags who break the Summoners Code shouldn't be punished. -.-

This is going to be a bit better system, since now they will definitely get punished if they still continue being douchebags.

FuryofThornsRedo5/21/2015, 7:47:01 PM1 votes

There is a large majority of the Riot League of Legends online video customers many of us drive our abilities into performing the ability to win defeats and win victories with the selection of the Champion we decide to man the game and games we take the time to build our skills with the brain-hand-eye-mouse click coordination in the video game. This is the big picture. I am not stating the obvious to display any level of insulting rude inside of this subject discussion... (as the next paragraph will explain where I am illustrating my thoughts towards the tangent of ideas I know, though the audience might or might not be anticipating at this place inside of this paragraph)...inside of this discussion where common sense is many times or most of the time not always common to all people. As the capacity I own with my random abstract random concrete art side of the brain communication perspective and skill set I own, I am in the deficit most of the time where I know I need to explain my ideas, since, I too have memories in my levels of education when learning to rebuild or stand strong when up against social bullying. So the communication process skill set I own continues to be from a learned education tangent in my youth, and a skill set I am continuing to learn I might never need to reconfigure. I might not reconfigure but I know at times I need to adapt.

Considering the length, the visual might not be long enough for the Tribunal Review Game Analysis length of information compared to the one comment at this place in my reply to the subject discussion up above. I mentioned about the big picture. Many people continue to blame Riot League of Legends.

Why blame Riot League of Legends from the personal core set of values, skills, and abilities many people use to decide and conclude there self-defined capacity to market the sort of person of they pride themselves to be on a daily basis while performing the Toxic Communication skills, or the Blaming of each other, or the names calling of "Troll" "Griefer" "Noob", or the verbal harassment, along with the negative attitudes, unsportsmanlike conduct, Socially bullying a person to perform less than when the initially began their Riot League of Legends online video game career regardless of their ages.

How could we ask Riot League of Legends to help ourselves market ourselves better when the ability to market ourselves begins inside of the Brains we own solely alone? How could Riot League of Legends teach us to market ourselves better; so when other computer executives enter their office they continue to remain in a deficit of Quality Riot League of Legends online video Games (played Live as when they stream inside of their own office to Speculate, or DvD video taped to play a month from when the meeting is set)? How?

Due to the length I excuse myself, but other Flow Charts of ideas, thoughts, and thought patterns inside of other Flow Charts of information as to the How-To pictures in setting up you home video game counsels in tandem with the TV, those flow charts include all of which is needed to be explained.

This is as nice as I can sound, when Trying to Defend almost the Majority of the Entire Riot League of Legends online video game community. Should many be disappointed, then I can magnify the focus of my attention to help those people under Level 30. I posted somewhere else and I was in a subject discussion of 13 versus me alone, yes, 13 v 1.

Thank you for time! I shared much here because I care about the integrity of Riot League of Legends online video game community boards Discussion Realm and the Realm of the League of Legends game too! From: FuryofThornsRedo

1000angrybees5/21/2015, 7:48:51 PM1 votes

If you're being antagonistic, I really dont give a shit what happens. Maybe people shouldnt bring a bad attitude in the game.