Honestly, who thought this would be fair?

Elite4Runner·Jul 22, 2018·4 votes·1,990 views

No, I did not just get stomped by a Vayne in my most recent games. This is honestly just something that I have been thinking about for a while and meant to make a post about.

But seriously, .. how is it okay that a marksman can deal TRUE DAMAGE based on PERCENT MAXIMUM HEALTH

You can't build resistances because it is true damage, so you're just wasting money.

The general counter to true damage was to build flat health. .. But building more flat health just means she deals more damage. Yeah, it isn't AS effective, .. but ... what?

There is literally no way to mitigate this damage aside from blocks, cc, and forcing her to change targets.

I don't see why this is okay.

37 Comments

SugeMinPikkJul 22, 20183 votes

23.5% of Vayne's damage dealt is true. 71.9% of it is physical ( League of Graphs ). The true damage helps her deal with tanks. It doesn't completely invalidate tanks.

Thornmail, randuin's, and frozen heart are all exceptional items for dealing with her.

Also, protip: %hp calculation doesn't take shields into account.

Daddy AntsJul 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

23.5% of Vayne's damage dealt is true. 71.9% of it is physical ( League of Graphs ). The true damage helps her deal with tanks. It doesn't completely invalidate tanks.

Thornmail, randuin's, and frozen heart are all exceptional items for dealing with her.

Also, protip: %hp calculation doesn't take shields into account.

Most tanks possess enough lock down to keep her in place long enough for their team to pound her.

People say Vayne "3 shots tanks" and "2 shots squishies"

A few patches have actually made that complete bs.

8.11 - IE not amplifying critical strike damage.
7.19 - When Tumble's ability to critical strike was removed.

Daddy AntsJul 22, 20183 votes

Vayne isn't a problem, you just don't know how to play against her.

99.9% of the complaint threads about this champion come from either Bronze, Silver or Gold players simply because they either got stomped by a Vayne or they just simply don't know how to play against her.

Vayne has

**Lower baseHP than most traditional marksman at 515. ** _Only ones lower are Caitlyn and Ezreal but they make up for it with their attack/ability ranges. _
The second lowest base armor out of all traditional marksman at 23. Only one lower is Ezreal at 22. This means that physical damage in particular chunks her out really hard in lane.
** Lowest range of all ADC's.**

Now I know the circle jerk is going to say "550 isn't low" but hear me out.

Vayne has 550 auto attack range but has NO ABILITY DAMAGE that extends outside of her 550 auto attack range.

Caitlyn for example has a 1200 range Q, 800 range W, 750 Range E that's a dash and a 3000 range R.

BUT SIVIR, KOG AND LUCIAN ARE 500 RANGE??? JINX AND KAISA HAVE 525!!! Lol shut up, they all have ability damage that extends outside of their auto attack ranges.

Vayne ALWAYS has to be within 550 range to do damage, She does not have the luxury of sitting back rocketing from 700 range like Jinx or auto attacking from 661 range like Tristana. If Vayne's within 550 range of you, she's in range of all crowd control abilities

** Worst Early game out of all ADC's.**

Title says it all. Low Base HP, Low Armor, No real damage outside of her auto attacks which means without jungler assistance she's unlikely to do anything impactful to you during the laning phase.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/diamond/plus/champion/Vayne/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Vayne/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/gold/plus/champion/Vayne/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/silver/plus/champion/Vayne/ https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/bronze/plus/champion/Vayne/

She does not get past 48% win rate in ANY ELO

JonneeGJul 22, 20182 votes

Probably something along the lines of winrate, and the part where regular marksmen auto attacks 3 shot her. It sucks to play against toplane as a nasus main

Tahminatrix Jul 22, 20182 votes

item 3046 item 3085 item 3031 + item 3153 or item 1419

Current hp or max hp dmg gets multiplied by crit and then a small portion of it is converted to true dmg c:

Daddy AntsJul 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aE5mYw0O,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-22T19:36:10.020+0000)

+ or

Current hp or max hp dmg gets multiplied by crit and then a small portion of it is converted to true dmg c:

I'm not sure who's more clueless.

You or the OP.

Max HP and Current HP have no scalings with Critical Strike.

% damage of any kind can not crit.

KogMaw W - Max HP Damage. Scales with AP. Varus W - Max HP Damage. Scales with AP

item 1419 - Max HP Damage. Has no scalings whatsoever.

Vayne W - Max HP Damage.

None of these champions / items % damage can crit.

Before you make posts like this, at least check the validity of what you're posting.

Tahminatrix Jul 24, 20181 votes

I never said KogMaw or Vayne or Varus Magic damage and True damage DUHHH Also does the true dmg conversion work for those items? Cause that was my main point.

Daddy AntsJul 24, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aE5mYw0O,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-07-24T02:02:03.168+0000)

I never said or or Magic damage and True damage DUHHH Also does the true dmg conversion work for those items? Cause that was my main point.

You said

Current hp or max hp dmg gets multiplied by crit

It doesn't.

Tahminatrix Jul 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

You said

Current hp or max hp dmg gets multiplied by crit

It doesn't.

From those items, which I was wrong, (they do physical dmg btw, not magical and true damage like the champions you listed for some damn reason) now does it get converted to true dmg?

Daddy AntsJul 22, 20182 votes

You did just get stomped by a Vayne so this is just a "I got stomped so I'm gonna cry" thread

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Elite4Runner

Please refer to the 2/9/10 Kennen Normal game.

So, just because you're clueless and itemize full damage vs a fed Vayne and lose she's suddenly unfair?

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/files/Thinking_Face_Emoji.png

Elite4RunnerJul 23, 20181 votes

Why do people feel like they need to play detective in order to prove someone wrong?

I did not make this post because I was upset about that match. It is simply the contradictory mechanic that I don't understand why Riot considers logical.

You gave a good argument but you have been annoyingly smug about it, which is probably why people are downvoting your comments.

Daddy AntsJul 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why do people feel like they need to play detective in order to prove someone wrong?

I did not make this post because I was upset about that match. It is simply the contradictory mechanic that I don't understand why Riot considers logical.

You gave a good argument but you have been annoyingly smug about it, which is probably why people are downvoting your comments.

Don't start a post saying "I didn't get stomped by x champion" just to try and make your post more credible.

People will check you if you do that.

I can't play vs Draven for the life of me but I'm not making "HOW IS DRAVEN FAIR?!1!11" posts.

Elite4RunnerJul 23, 20181 votes

But I hadn't ... I didn't even play League yesterday, and I had played 5 games since that one.

I personally didn't even feel like I got "stomped" by Vayne that game either.

She did really well, and we lost, but I think I did a pretty good job of holding my own considering how much harder the Yasuo on their team was carrying.

I wasn't building tank, so it wouldn't really make any sense for me to be complaining about her being so strong against tanks because of how strong she was.

So you aren't catching me in a lie, you are making an assumption and searching for evidence that supports your assumption.

And the whole reason I said that is because I understand that people do exactly what you're saying, and it annoys me too.

Daddy AntsJul 23, 20181 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOIqt4kdizA

Maybe you should watch that :)

It's a year old but it's still relevant.

Elite4RunnerJul 23, 20181 votes

You're completely missing the point here.

It isn't her as a champion that I have a problem with, it is the general concept of having a champion who deals true damage that scales on maximum health.

I know that her kit is not broken.

I just don't think the scaling is logical.

Would it make sense to give a champion armor penetration based on how much armor their target has?

Just 4 MemesJul 22, 20181 votes

I have never been a fan of all the health % damage and true damage. But I doubt it will ever go away, they are just adding more to the family... now we have TRUE STEALTH Q_Q as ridiculous as that shit sounds.

Diana holeJul 22, 20181 votes

She has one of the shortest range out of all adcs accompanied with a horrible early game. She needs a strong steroid otherwise there's no reason to pick her over lucian

Summonah12369Jul 22, 20181 votes

I saw a clip of a Cho'Gath 1 shot a Taliyah who was at full hp btw. I think this clip also CAME FROM PROFESSIONAL PLAY.

SugeMinPikkJul 22, 20181 votes

This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usl6UDfS984 That's an old clip and it has since been fixed. [sg-lulu]

Summonah12369Jul 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usl6UDfS984 That's an old clip and it has since been fixed. [sg-lulu]

Yeah.

Kurt HyzanJul 22, 20181 votes

Coupled with item 3124 item 3153 it's bs because she doesn't even need flat AD. It has no scalings (the true damage)

Daddy AntsJul 22, 20181 votes

Another one of these threads about a 48% Win rate B Tier champ.

rtbf221651412Jul 22, 20181 votes

It's okay.

Vayne item 1419 item 3153

I can add more % damage. :>

Also in regards to her W:

Damn. She has to build attack speed to do that every three shots. Whatever should you build?

Daddy AntsJul 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's okay.

I can add more % damage. :>

No Vayne who isn't trolling builds that.

Daddy AntsJul 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's okay.

I can add more % damage. :>

Also in regards to her W:

Damn. She has to build attack speed to do that every three shots. Whatever should you build?

Decreasing attack speed

Attack speed reductions stack multiplicatively and take percentages off the final attack speed value after all bonus attack speed has been factored in. Attack speed reductions are affected by Tenacity, but not by Slow resist.

Items Frozen Heart Randuin's Omen Thornmail Warden's Mail

Champion abilities Fiora's Riposte Malphite's Ground Slam Nasus' Wither Nunu's Ice Blast and Absolute Zero

rtbf221651412Jul 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Decreasing attack speed

Attack speed reductions stack multiplicatively and take percentages off the final attack speed value after all bonus attack speed has been factored in. Attack speed reductions are affected by Tenacity, but not by Slow resist.

Items Frozen Heart Randuin's Omen Thornmail Warden's Mail

Champion abilities Fiora's Riposte Malphite's Ground Slam Nasus' Wither Nunu's Ice Blast and Absolute Zero

I never said I was on the OP's side.

Might want to get your assumptions and reading comprehension in check mate.

KhristophorosJul 22, 20181 votes

Because scaling off enemy health is actually worse than scaling off AD for a champ like Vayne who can't be effective when built tank. Percent hp damage is only good if you can build tank, but it turns out Vayne can't be effective by relying purely on her W so she can't build tank and thus her W isn't actually that amazing.

Elite4RunnerJul 23, 20181 votes

But if she still builds AD, crit, and/or attack speed she is still able to deal enough damage to kill non-tanks ... which is what ADCs do ... , AND her Silver Bolts will still nuke tanks, which is supposed to be the bane of ADCs, .... along with assassins, who are fortunately still decent against her if they manage to avoid her Condemn.

KhristophorosJul 23, 20182 votes

What I'm saying is if Silver Bolts scaled off a stat she builds like AD it would be stronger against 99% of champs than it is now. It would kill tanks even better than it does now. The only exceptions would be extreme outliers like Cho'Gath and Kled.

The primary reason %hp scaling damage in general is useful is because it allows you to build full tank and still deal good damage, but in Vayne's case it doesn't actually accomplish that so it would be stronger if it scaled off a stat she builds instead of a stat the enemy may build, because then it would scale off how ahead she is instead of the health of the particular enemy she attacks.

All this ability really does is give Vayne a little something for when she's behind. Arguments could be made for or against that being a good thing but that's actually what it accomplishes on her kit.

As a general rule, scaling off a stat your champion builds is always better than scaling off a stat an enemy champ may or may not build. If you ever have a game with Vayne + either Yi or Vel'koz check out the true damage dealt at the end. Vayne will always have less true damage dealt than either of those two champs even if the enemy team is all tanks. The reason for that is they have AD and AP scaling respectively on their true damage that makes it better than Silver Bolts even if the enemy is a tank. Mostly because if you're winning you'll get more gold to buy AD or AP compared to how much gold the enemies have to buy health.

Daddy AntsJul 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

As a general rule, scaling off a stat your champion builds is always better than scaling off a stat an enemy champ may or may not build. If you ever have a game with Vayne + either Yi or Vel'koz check out the true damage dealt at the end. Vayne will always have less true damage dealt than either of those two champs even if the enemy team is all tanks. The reason for that is they have AD and AP scaling respectively on their true damage that makes it better than Silver Bolts even if the enemy is a tank. Mostly because if you're winning you'll get more gold to buy AD or AP compared to how much gold the enemies have to buy health.

Finally, someone with a brain.

Take my upvote.

People too busy crying about non problematic champs but things like this go unnoticed.

https://i.imgur.com/6xwYgtc.png

Elite4RunnerJul 23, 20181 votes

You "People with brains" are just overthinking this post.

I'm not complaining about Vayne as a champion.

Any champion who's effectiveness scales off of their opponent's attempt to mitigate their effectiveness doesn't make sense to me.

No other champion actually does this to my knowledge though, .. so Vayne is the one I'm talking about.

She only deals true damage up to 14% of her target's maximum HP, .. which is not enough to make her inherently broken, especially along with all of the other balancing factors built into her kit as a whole that you already mentioned.

So again, I'm not complaining about Vayne, I'm complaining about the way that single ability's damage scales.

I'd honestly be fine with this if it was true damage that scaled with % current HP or % missing HP. .. but true damage that scales on % maximum HP doesn't make any sense to me.

Daddy AntsJul 22, 20181 votes

How about complaining about actual problematic ADC's like Draven MissFortune

Daddy AntsJul 23, 20181 votes

I like the downvotes because I post VALID counter arguments.

At this point, Riot should just disable Gameplay Boards. Complete cancer.

Pika FoxJul 23, 20181 votes

Thornmail, randuins, frozen heart...

She needs 3 autos to deal like 12% HP damage. Maybe more, fuck if i remember. Assuming it even does 20% thats still 15 autos to kill. Thats a long ass wait.