Why would you vote for endless war?

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Rhinark,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aB5QMIEE,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2018-07-13T12:24:02.466+0000)

Yeah but one is shiny and pristine and the other has spikes and blood on it.

The infamous sacks of blood

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if that "freedom" is as good as it sounds, people wouldn't have tried so hard to make rules. Because a world where everything goes, only just means the one holding a bigger bat/club rules. Subjugation of the weak and the vulnerable will be rife and any diplomatic, intellectual, and moral/ethical etc discourse will be impossible and irrelevant in the world where everyone bows to the one who can hold a bigger axe waiting to hack the other in half because they disagree with them.

"Freedom to pursue your ideals" sounds good when flapped out of one's mouth, but one must realise such a thing will never be possible if the environment doesn't explicitly allows such a thing. And an environment of such gentle nature does NOT exist in nature, but instead in human designs. Tell me, how is it going to be possible for a blind person to access education without any sort of establishment, which would mean some orders are in place to create and facilitate such a thing, without having any kind of order? How is it going to be possible for a kid in the country town to access medical attendance at an affordable price and prevent the doctors from ripping them off? How is it going to be possible to forbid slavery and crimes against other individuals who can not fight back by themselves, ie the disabled, the born-frail, the old, and the young? Or how is it going to be possible to trace the responsibility of a crime, without some kind of metric like laws, to define and enforce such a thing and discourage potential future instances from taking place; or do you suppose a world full of revenge seekers over another's crime a proper forms of society? Those things don't grow on trees up for grabs, someone have to be there to create the necessary infrastructure to allow those things, which will need a gigantic resources to realise, and it can not be done without any kind of proper order in place.

A world without order only ever provides ample "freedom" to those WHO ARE ALREADY IN POWER, and punishes those who are not already at the apex; the weak can not stand up for themselves, sure they have the "freedom" to fight, but we all know for a fact they can't do shit anyway precisely because they are weak and vulnerable, ie it's a fake "freedom" like a good Catch-22. If you haven't noticed anything, that "freedom" you speak of, is the exact opposite of actual freedom.

Your pond vs river analogy is also utterly nonsensical in my eyes. There is a reason why human societies develop AFTER the invention of "orderly" things like language, formality, moral, laws, etc, which are all fundamental to a society's existence. Even if you want to go back into the warring states era, each states still had its own laws and order. So what exactly does chaos even bring? If you have to use the 'water' analogy, chaos is the mirage oasis in a desert; it looks good from a distance, but its "good-ness" is imagined and fueled by your desperation and is in reality non-existent, a fake promise that results in death.

Unjust as fights may be, the fight for order only needs to fight ONCE, an once achieved, there will be no bloodshed; that's one hell of a bargain in comparison to endless wars, don't you think? And if orders are true to its words, reforms and whatnot can nonetheless happen, just that it will be less chaotic when it does. It's a complete fallacy that order will only means stagnation. Remember, all of the laws, moral codes, whatever, exist to SOLVE problems, not to create them. They might create problems independent from the problems that were there since the very beginning (prejudice against homosexual, for instance, was a created problem), but that's a minuscule minority to the issues they fix and the amount of lives it improves, and also why law and order gets updated in an orderly fashion. On the other hand, pure and utter anarchy will result in absolutely nothing, and the world will be stuck in a permanent stone-age where even something as trivial as drinking water can kill you (no order, no recognised basic human rights, no establishment, no infrastructure, no clean water. One of the first attempt to "clean hydration" came in the form of the invention of alcohol in the ancient age, which required some kind of order to distribute the knowledge and mass produce it, so that people were not dying like literal flies, and a civilisation could even be had). The only liberation a world without any order can bring is death, and that's not "freedom".

Remember, the sole reason why every countries are properly ordered, or at least most of them try to anyway, is because chaos lost in the wars that lasted eons with order. If you have to use your chaos ideal in application of this, people exercised their freedom to fight and die for the peaceful and progressive society the order offers, not the endless strife and destruction that will only be brought about in its absence. That should say something.

Without any forms of order, no one can be productive, and the world will be permanently stuck fighting over the smallest of things. A world of endless strife is utterly counterproductive, and will ultimately results nothing. That's why rules and orders were even made, to give people chances in their own terms. Order is what both PROMISES and GRANTS a person freedom, the chaos only does the former. Therefore, to suggest that the lack of laws should be the answer, is both immature and highly uninsightful.

..........

Also, as I was saying in another thread, I also find it VERY ODD that people can only see order in the worst light of dystopia, but can't do the same for chaos, in which they go out of their way to fantasise a great deal of and in the most positive way ever.

I guess it's to do with media having a fetish to be as meaningless rebellious as possible, but seriously, you don't want to live in a world where orders don't exist. Wanna know how I know? Buy a 1 way ticket into the most lawless part of the world and stay there for 5 years, then come back and tell me how you think orders are BS.

Plenty of people break stupid 'laws and orders' all the time for a beneficial life.

Just because a law or an order exists doesn't mean its right.

I think you romanticized Law and Chaos a bit much.

Things in the US are pretty dystopian. We have a bunch of laws and orders that keep the rich, rich and the poor, poor.

Sure we have some benefits. But compared to other countries its a bit of a joke.

Healthcare system most people can't buy into.

Debt Slavery with employment and low wages.

Corporations holding global wealth over countries.

Our democracy is a joke.

Trump is a joke.

And you see this as a sign of progress and laws?

Bring in the chaos. Because 'order' has made a real mess of things.

And the price they paid for it wasn't worth the cost.

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Do you know why countries are founded? Because people have the choice to and they have the choice to fight for their country.

Garens order is that of fascism; He controls the economy, the military, and the people. He is not law, he is not justice, and he is not kosher. He is a tyrant. He is the kind of order that annexed Crimea. He is the kind of order that denies Palestinian existence. He is the kind of order that the Muslim faith bases its doctrines on. He is the kind of order that Nazi Germany propelled into war.
He is the kind of order that uses chemical weapons to put down protestors. He is the kind of order that forces people to prostrate as he goes past. He is the kind of order that forces children to become soldiers. He is the kind of order that cannot stand others on the same stage.

Darius is the freedom of choice. He is the kind of choice that lets you fight for your country. He is the kind of choice that lets you fight for a displaced peoples rights. He is the kind of choice that lets you choose not to live and die by the dogma. He is the kind of choice that lets you fight wars for your ideals. He is the kind of choice that lets you denounce those who terrorize their own people. He is the kind of choice that lets you sell condos to dictators. He is the kind of choice that lets you drone strike monsters who prey on the young. He is the kind of choice that lets you band together to put down a bully who thinks hes a god-king.

Under garens order there would be no grey area, only black and white. You have no voice, you are a number in his realm and that is all you are. There is no dissent, there is no differing opinion, there is no dialogue. There is the order, and there is death.

laws are not there to create order, laws are there to enforce order. Every community will create their own rules, and if those rules are broken they will be punished as needed. Thats what darius offers. Darius offers the ability to create your own areas and defend them, to grow as you wish and not as another tells you to.

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Wrong! War is NOT natural. If you think it is so you are brainwashed to be a pawn of people that would use you for their own ends.

In this scenario non of the kings offer something that is "good" they only offer evil. That is the morale of the whole story.

Uh wrong. Kindness is a learned trait, humanity is naturally prone to not care about people whom they arent close to.

Theres... Theres literally studies about this subject that prove conflict is hard wired into our DNA. Hell our closest animal relatives will band together and fight other communities when resources are scarce.