And we STILL do not have any sort of item that can deal with them.
Thornmail? Doesn't proc abilities Banshees? Blocks spells but no AD Randuins? Your best bet but still getting pelted at range. Ninja Tabi? Try again, it's only basic attacks
Why is there no item to deal with these guys? Why do we not have any tank items to build that can deal with an AD character that is primarily casting spells?
Rebonack33 votesI've pointed this one out before and I'm in full agreement, the game simply doesn't have any way of dealing with an AD Caster who has some grasp of what Last Whisper does. God help you if they run TriPen.
Since Omen lost its niche as the anti-kiting item I think it would be the best pick for an anti-physical damage item. Remove its OnHit attack speed slow and instead give it 15% untyped damage reduction against physical damage.
That, or make Thornmail return all sources of physical damage. Because watching Zed blow himself up on the Tank would be hilarious.
Kingsgrave5 votesI've pointed this one out before and I'm in full agreement, the game simply doesn't have any way of dealing with an AD Caster who has some grasp of what Last Whisper does. God help you if they run TriPen.
Since Omen lost its niche as the anti-kiting item I think it would be the best pick for an anti-physical damage item. Remove its OnHit attack speed slow and instead give it 15% untyped damage reduction against physical damage.
That, or make Thornmail return all sources of physical damage. Because watching Zed blow himself up on the Tank would be hilarious.
If Thornmail did that anybody would build it against Zed, not just tanks. I think that would be problematic.
ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes2k+ gold for nothing but armor and 30% damage return. Zed will still burst you, but you're going to hurt him a lot...except he can always just roam and go bot. So in the end you spend a huge cash value on an item that is only for dealing with him.
Junkο4 votesonly for dealing with him.
I was not aware ADCs and most junglers dealt all their damage in magic damage
Madra29 votesIf Thornmail did that anybody would build it against Zed, not just tanks. I think that would be problematic.
God forbid that Zed needed his team for anything.
Junkο3 votesTo be fair it wouldn't be just Zed, every assassin would just blow himself up by attacking the tank, this would create another tank meta because tanks would simply be too good. Or an AP meta
RasCaelestis6 votesThis is good. The fact that tanks get blown up just as fast as the squishies isn't right, and assassins should need to pay at least some price for targeting them.
Junkο3 votesNo it isn't good. You are already punished for targeting them by being unable to use your spells on valuable targets like ADC or APC, also killing yourself in the process would be overkill and would make tanks way stronger than they need to be.
RasCaelestis5 votesFirst off, if you're targeting the tank there are a lot of things to consider.
A.) The tank is doing its job well and protecting its squishies. You don't have to use any abilities on the tank. Rammus's taunt doesn't make you push Q, W, E, or R. Essentially, you are getting outplayed by the tank.
B.) You're intentionally wasting your abilities on the tank which means that you want them to be gone more than the squishy target that you yourself admit should be the focus of your abilities. In other words, you are playing poorly, and deserve to be punished for it.
C.) The tank and you were fighting alone, probably in a 1v1 situation. You both wanted the other dead, but while you have the damage to deal with the tank, the tank probably doesn't have enough damage to do much to you before it dies. This scenario has a lot of unknown variables, but let's say you're both even in build (though different items) and health percentages. The tank can conceivably run to safety before dying, but since most tanks are slow and most assassins/ADCasters are not (either due to gap-closers or base speed), the tank doesn't have very much time.
With the implementation of such an item, it will make the assassins/ADCasters need to play as intelligently as their opponents. I see very little downside to this.
Akesgeroth3 votesThere was never a "tank" meta. For a while bruisers dominated everything, but tanks were never dominant.
Phoneixflare1 voteshahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
do you remember when shen was picked/banned every game for awhile dude?
you are hilarious rn
Akesgeroth1 votesShen being picked a lot doesn't make a tank meta.
Phoneixflare1 votesoh you're right lets not forget that shen, malphite, renekton, singed, and zac being included in almost every single game in the season of 2013
not tank meta at all.
Akesgeroth1 votesRenekton is a bruiser. So is Singed.
Phoneixflare1 votesThey are also tanky as fuck. Or did you forget??
Still applies to 'tank meta' jeez
Akesgeroth1 votesCaitlyn would be tanky as fuck if you build Randuin's Omen, Sunfire Cape, Merc Treads, MoM, GA and BC on her. Doesn't make her a tank.
Phoneixflare1 votesall of the champs I listed have KITS, meaning their ABILITIES, help them to force engages, take reduced damage, or help their own team in a fight peel. They all have the abilities to, on top of being extremely hard to kill, control a fight and pull aggro to them. As in, you had to deal with them some how otherwise they would lock your team down and you would lose the teamfight cait built the way you just mentioned...does virtually nothing in a teamfight.
renekton has an hp gaining ultimate that does damage over time to people near him(aka PEEL ME BEFORE I JUMP YOUR CARRY AND DEAL DAMAGE TO HIM) and a HUGE stun that does really good damage along with survival skills to heal him so he doesnt die
Singed has an ultimate that, paired with certain items and summoners, means a FREE engage or flash burn, alongside an ENORMOUS slow and damage over time from his poison trail, and the way he can be built makes him incredibly tanky.
I don't think you understand what tank meta means or know what the champions are that contributed to that meta.
Rebonack9 votesIf Thornmail did that anybody would build it against Zed, not just tanks. I think that would be problematic.
Remind me who the Tutorial has you building Thornmail on again?
Im quite certain you use armor to deal with them.
Whoops! Tripen Jman just shredded your 300 armor down to 50.
doubleguac2 votesRemove its OnHit attack speed slow and instead give it 15% untyped damage reduction against physical damage.
15% reduction against all physical damage is a huge amount to stack on top of whatever reduction someone already has from armor.
I agree that there aren't a lot of good options against AD casters, but this would create the opposite problem: a single purchase item that is too universally good against all physical damage dealers. Randuins is already a "now I'm tanky" one item wonder.
Frozen heart and thornmails are already there to deal with auto attackers. If you're going to make randuins into an anti-caster item, why not gear it specifically against casters? Give it 10% reduced damage from physical abilities. Now there is a ninja tabi equivalent to build against AD casters.
AGarner7 votesYeah lets change it to an active like in DotA 2
Thornmail:
Ow! It's prickly: After activation for the next 2.82 (+ 0.01 per character level) seconds any damage you take is also dealt to the player(s) that damaged you (This does not make you take no damage it just returns the damage you took) Cooldown 100
at level 18 you can block all of Zed's ult with it and at level 1-17 you can't. Balance!
What Is Smite4 votesCait Score's 3 crits on Rammus = Cait killed herself
Brindale2 votesI've pointed this one out before and I'm in full agreement, the game simply doesn't have any way of dealing with an AD Caster who has some grasp of what Last Whisper does. God help you if they run TriPen.
Since Omen lost its niche as the anti-kiting item I think it would be the best pick for an anti-physical damage item. Remove its OnHit attack speed slow and instead give it 15% untyped damage reduction against physical damage.
That, or make Thornmail return all sources of physical damage. Because watching Zed blow himself up on the Tank would be hilarious.
Why not make Warden's mail build into something that does that, instead of destroying old omen completely (rip slow on hit)?
cFlame2 votes{quoted} That, or make Thornmail return all sources of physical damage. Because watching Zed blow himself up on the Tank would be hilarious.
"Please ult me dear god please ult me I have Void Staff and Liandries Torment I'm sitting at 200 health damn it ult me." I think I'm seduced by the thought of it, everyone is forced to play as an AP carry or they lose 15 minutes in.
67chrome7 votesWhy is there no item to deal with these guys?
Armor and HP still work against them. Not having tertiary multipliers for optimal shut-downs doesn't mean you can't itemize against them at all.
As for why the optimal anti-AD Caster itemization is a little sparse, tactics.
A bruiser like Shyvana is supposed to be tanky enough to survive long enough to do her job. Counter-play against her with an assassin, mage, or marksman isn't about out-tanking her damage, it's about not letting her snuggle you to death. So she deals 50/50 physical/magical/auto-attack/ability damage that's 100% impossible to counter-build in any meaningful way. Dealing with Shyvana isn't about mitigating her damage with tank stats. That's how bruisers deal with you. There win condition for surviving long enough to do their job is durability, out-tanking.
When it comes to mages and marksman - you can't easily position around them to negate their damage like you can a melee. Their reach and effective radius of pain is just so great you need committed items like Ninja Tabi, Thornmail, Banshee's Veil, and QSS to be available. There win condition is out-ranging opponents and potentially using CC or mobility to never get hit in the first place.
AD casters are more often than not assassins, which is somewhere in-between those 2 groups. They're fast and agile in a burst through their kit which improves their zone of influence to a certain extent, but they're still melee and subjugated to a lot of disadvantages being melee brings. Which, in turn, doesn't merit the same kind of durability counters you have avalible against marksman and mages.
Being melee is a significant disadvantage, melee champions need something to offset that in LoL. Riot's generally chosen "more damage when you actually get the opportunity to deal damage" as their common theme for melee champions.
ModCaptainMårvelous5 votesLet me itemize this because this is gonna be a bit of a dissection.
Armor and HP still work against them. Not having tertiary multipliers for optimal shut-downs doesn't mean you can't itemize against them at all.
Indeed they do. But then again you're also account for spell damage (AD or not) in addition to the actual ratio. So a spell that deals 200 damage + 0.7 AD or something is gonna hit like a truck whereas the itemization is still geared toward dealing with auto-attacks.
As for why the optimal anti-AD Caster itemization is a little sparse, tactics.
A bruiser like Shyvana is supposed to be tanky enough to survive long enough to do her job. Counter-play against her with an assassin, mage, or marksman isn't about out-tanking her damage, it's about not letting her snuggle you to death. So she deals 50/50 physical/magical/auto-attack/ability damage that's 100% impossible to counter-build in any meaningful way. Dealing with Shyvana isn't about mitigating her damage with tank stats. That's how bruisers deal with you. There win condition for surviving long enough to do their job is durability, out-tanking.
Except it actually is possible to counterbuild shyvana, considering her magic is pretty laughably small and she has zero penetration, meaning even one MR item will likely reduce her magical damage to a great extent. Shyvana, in addition, will primarily build AS items and maybe a little AD. Except even then, her only dangerous AD spell is her Q. Otherwise, she's basically reduced to some mediocre spells and a little big of damage.
Now you argue that a bruiser's job is durability, but the fact is that they're not really durable anymore. Unless you have some obscene steroid against damage (Braum/Alistar/etc.) you're basically going to be slaughtered because your one armor item is countered thanks to the easy penetration choices. Now again we look at the AD Abilities. Not only are they doing auto-damage, they're also doing immense physical damage. Sometimes at range, sometimes in melee. "But what about the fact that crit-" Except some spells CAN crit and that's not a valid excuse, not to mention how quickly some of these champions can throw out a painful, ranged nuke.
When it comes to mages and marksman - you can't easily position around them to negate their damage like you can a melee. Their reach and effective radius of pain is just so great you need committed items like Ninja Tabi, Thornmail, Banshee's Veil, and QSS to be available. There win condition is out-ranging opponents and potentially using CC or mobility to never get hit in the first place.
Again, this would be the case if some ADs still used autos. However, a good chunk of recent ADC marksmen have moved toward casting spells. Lucian doesn't auto-attack, he fires off spells that happen to also make his autos better. Ezreal, Jinx, Sivir, even Twitch and Tristana to an extent. Tabi and Thornmail are piss-awful choices to counter these guys, meaning that your purchase amounts to little more than extra armor and barely used effects. Did I also mention that they got another penetration item so that armor's kinda pointless?
The "CC/Mobility to not get hit" argument doesn't fair that well with tanks, however. A tank/brusier should be able to wade into a fight and get past the CC/Mobility, or alternatively you blew all your spells keeping Nautilus away so you're not in any danger. Except now, tanks don't have the durability to do that. Grats on the thornmail, but Vayne doesn't care about the minor damage return, she's proccing true silver. Jinx fired off a zap that chunks your health because it's an AD nid spear. Etc. We're not even getting into AD casters who just shred for the sake of shredding.
AD casters are more often than not assassins, which is somewhere in-between those 2 groups. They're fast and agile in a burst through their kit which improves their zone of influence to a certain extent, but they're still melee and subjugated to a lot of disadvantages being melee brings. Which, in turn, doesn't merit the same kind of durability counters you have avalible against marksman and mages.
Being melee is a significant disadvantage, melee champions need something to offset that in LoL. Riot's generally chosen "more damage when you actually get the opportunity to deal damage" as their common theme for melee champions.
- Instant reposition that doubles as an initiation/escape. Very short cooldown, ranged harassment tool that can be doubled.
- Instant reposition. Ranged attacks/waveclear. Enormous area burst ultimate.
- Incredibly powerful repositioning skill, can avoid the "Melee disadvantage" with windwall, ranged knock-up with a short cooldown.
For these assassins (Yasuo is basically an assassin at this point from the routine kit guttings), they certainly have a lot of skills that avoid the trope of "He's melee so he's weak!" And the argument that a lot of assassins aren't AD is just plain false. A good chunk are AD and as many are AP, so it's a balanced argument.
Finally, you argue that melee is a disadvantage, but some of these casters are not only melee but have ranged AD so not only is it suicide to get close, they can poke out at range. This is the problem with AD casters: Not only are they dangerous up close, they're dangerous from afar. You can't itemize against them as a way of avoiding or neglecting damage, the only counter is 'build enough HP/Armor that it doesn't hurt enough'.
Compare this to, say, AP. You have a banshees, blocking magic resistance. You have abyssal, lowering the enemy's MR if they get close to try and maximize their AP burst. The Aegis line. Malmortius essentially being a "Oh you bursted me but now I have a chance". AD casters don't have this crutch, this select itemization for a variety of situations. It's thoughtless stat-gains to make it hurt a little less and nothing more. And that, my friend, should not be the case.
ccseancc1433 votesAssasins are burst. the problem with people are that they dont engaeg even after they use their combo. Thats when assasins are the weakest.
67chrome2 votesLet me itemize this because this is gonna be a bit of a dissection.
I'd like to respond to this, but your thoughts seem to be all over the place.
You're overall theme of this response is "armor sucks", where the thesis of your OP was "armor sucks vs. AD casters because thornmail, omen, and ninja tabi's bonuses don't effect them".
In the vast majority of issues you brought up here, you started mentioning AD champions like Vayne, Twitch, Tristana, Yasou, and more that are Not AD casters, and are very heavily countered by items like Omen, Thornmail, and Tabi.
Which is actually really annoying.
That's like calling oatmeal raisin cookies chocolate chip cookies despite still being oatmeal raisin cookies.
As for this point:
Except it actually is possible to counterbuild shyvana, considering her magic is pretty laughably small and she has zero penetration, meaning even one MR item will likely reduce her magical damage to a great extent.
50% physical, 50% magical is a clear and easily provable advantage against counter building.
Assume Zed is capable of dealing 1000 damage within a 6 second window, and Shyvana is capable of dealing 500+500=1000 damage within a 6 second window.
If Shyvana purchases 100 armor against Zed, it will reduce his pre-pen damage by 50%, or down to 500.
However, if Zed purchases 100 MR, it will only bring Shyvana's damage down to 500+250=750, or 25%. If Zed purchases 100 Armor instead, same deal - 250+500=750. If he decides to go 50 armor and 50 MR (33% DR), then it's 333+333=667 damage. While he's only doing 500 damage back.
Add in Last Whisper's 35% armor pen, and you cut that 100 armor down to 65 for Shyvana, dropping it from 50% DR to 40% DR, or causing Zed to deal 600 damage post LW, while best-case scinario for him is reducing Shyvana's damage to 667.
Considering LoL King is posting Shyvana at 153,000 damage per game and Zed at 147,000, it's not a stretch to assume they're pretty even in damage. Impressive considering Shyvana's tendency to build Kingblade, Omen, Visage, Sunfire, and Tabi. Where Zed's stat-tracking is showing him going full glass with Kingblade, Ghostblade, Whisper, and Merc Treads.
Riot did design tanky DPS champions to deal DPS when they build tank after all. It's not like they need the same offensive requirements as mages, marksman, and assassins to reach similar damage values.
Especially seeing as tanky DPS tend to be the hybrid damage class, and: Magic damage has 100% armor penetration. Physical damage has 100% magic penetration. They just tend to run with non-AD/AP sources for physical damage like TriForce, Sunfire Cape, Wit's End, Kingblade, and general crazy stuff on jungler items.
On penetrations:
Except it actually is possible to counterbuild shyvana, considering her magic is pretty laughably small and she has zero penetration, meaning even one MR item will likely reduce her magical damage to a great extent.
For needing penetrations - MR and Armor simply do not function in a way that requires penetrations to deal with them.
Just as starting with 1000 HP and grabbing 1000+1000+1000 HP will offer 4 times the defense, starting with 0 MR and grabbing 100+100+100 will offer 4 times the magical resistance.
There's no wonky power-curve or hurdle you need to overcome concerning physical or magical damage within LoL. Which means reasonable damage inputs will result in reasonable damage outputs.
On needing magic penetration more particularly on champions like Shyvana, Udyr, Mundo, Wariwkc, Nasus: when you consider MR is approximately 35% lower than armor in most cases, that point makes no sense.
Through base stats alone champions either have 30 or 52.25 MR at level 18, and anywhere from 60 to 90 armor, 75 being pretty average. Which means at least 100% more armor on ranged champions, and around 43% more to 72% more on melee.
Armor is also notably more available in higher amounts through itemization in an item-per-item comparison, often leading tanks to have ~50% more armor, or ~33% less MR, in most situations. Especially considering HP alone is pretty solid against most forms on magic damage, leading to ~150 MR being the maximum you'd ever realistically need.
If you think something like Last Whisper is a problem, why make the case having greater %penetrations bonus than Last Whisper offers is so weak it needs penetrations to function?
Anyways - the reason I've spent so much time on the Shyvana point is because it seems to hit at the heart of both penetrations being to high by going into how they compare to other sources, as well as durability items being to weak by really focusing on how 1 of the 2 main defense rolls (bruisers) really operates compared to armor penetrating ADs.
SmokinSickStyle3 votesBanshee's blocks any kind of spell, from CC only to AP, truedamage and AD.
Now, which ADs are you talking about?
Ranged carries or melee ones?
Sightless668 votesHe's talking about AD casters, so assassins like Zed are what he's talking about. It's unlikely he's complaining about ranged carries because he specifically mentions items that work against autoattacks. When he talked about Banshee's he's saying it's a bad option against AD casters because it gives no armor.
ModCaptainMårvelous18 votesSightless covered it but let me explain my point further.
Of the original 40, only two champions really had spells that could classify them as AD Caster: Sivir and Ashe, who still primarily relied on autos.
Fast forward to now.
These are all champions with powerful, AD-scaling spells. Some of them (Particularly Yi) have even been reworked to have more AD based skills. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if the items evolved along with the gameplay, but whereas AD items have come to compliment AD spells, the defensive items have not.
- Works with AD spells
- Single Target Spells
- The most egregious offender of the lot.
- Physical damage, regardless of spells
Comparatively, tanks items have NOT evolved to accommodate this change. Mentioned it above but I'll go into more depth:
- Formerly the go-to anti-AD item, this doesn't do anything for spells. Great against auto-attackers but Lucian is just going to laugh at this.
- The anti-spellcaster item, this will do pissall against Zed. Grats, you blocked one spell, but you don't have any armor.
- Oh noooo, my attack speed. Guess I'll just wait for my cooldowns to come back up.
- Blocks basic damage....great cool but how about single target AD spells? Maybe?
As the game has come along, Riot's made a point of updating the modern arsenal of the AD caster. However, they've done nothing to support the person who has to fight against the AD caster. This is my issue: AD casters can have the best of both worlds but the counters of only half. Why is it fair that Zed can blow me up with AD spells -and- get powerful autos? Why is it that tanks have hundreds of millions of niche defense items but not one for the AD caster?
7ha7guy77720 votes yo dawg i heard you like armor shred, so i'm going to shred your armor while i'm shredding your armor
SmokinSickStyle4 votesBecause spells don't crit, and those spells that you activate, that grant you an AA modifier have a big portion of their damage classified as AA, Rengar's Q is totally counted as AA therefore Thornmail is effective.
The reason we don't have an AD caster item block is because most AD casters either don't have enough scaling in a kit that allows them to use it at their maximum potential or because most of them are built tanky or are tanky, and won't do just enough damage to be as relevan as AA based champions that arguably scale the best in this game, that's why there's no need to to create such an item.
Those who can use their high scaling spells without impunity usually have little to no CC and are squishy as hell, albeit being somewhat safe into avoiding damage instead of tanking it, in fact of those you listed, the ones that have no escapes but they are more all in-ish, build relatively tanky (Exception Being Rengar whose kit is being continuosly changed makes him have an identity crisis as he has a perfect tool for an Assassin to engage but absolutely no way to get out outside killing or tanking the rest, but if builds tanky his ult is nigh to useless when it comes to getting the most out of it considering its potential.).
Armor already reduces the damage done by AD damage, we have special items specifically designed for AA AD based characters because of how they scale, once again critical hits in this game are without a doubt the highest form of DPS we can have around (AD casters WILL get outscaled in the long run if built properly.).
Your problem seems to be those who have BOTH, Lucian, Graves, MF, or Yasuo, Zed, RIVEN, and other champs that can use spells on top of AA, whereas there are some others that are stuck with one (Trynda or Ashe for example).
The thing is that if someone has both for those damage types it's because they have somewhat not as much utility as the rest, once again, Ashe doesn't have high damage but arguably has a very utility based kit that can somewhat win games sometimes.
I actually feel it's balanced this way, if we add specific AD spell blocking it would be a nerf to "Hybrids" (Casters that can build crit because their kit allows them to) but a complete destruction for pure casters (Talon and Kha'Zix for example, they can build crit but they don't have a standard buildpath that includes crit, especially Kha, yes crit is devasting on Talon but it's a huge gold investment into something luck based that hinders your early game, where AD casters should be at their strongest phase.).
Also AD casters because of the reasons stated above which were the AA outscaling spells lategame are much less effective against tanks anyway, when was the last time a pure caster like Talon or Kha popping a full tank without going crit builds?
Zed CAN kill in a 1vs1 under certain circumnstances BUT, it must be out of teamfights and it must be a champion sitting still eating ironically enough, all his BotRK enhanced AUTOATTACKS during his ult, whereas Zed using his spells only won't do jackshit to tanks as it does on squishies.
Kingsgrave2 votesSightless covered it but let me explain my point further.
Of the original 40, only two champions really had spells that could classify them as AD Caster: Sivir and Ashe, who still primarily relied on autos.
Fast forward to now.
These are all champions with powerful, AD-scaling spells. Some of them (Particularly Yi) have even been reworked to have more AD based skills. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if the items evolved along with the gameplay, but whereas AD items have come to compliment AD spells, the defensive items have not.
Comparatively, tanks items have NOT evolved to accommodate this change. Mentioned it above but I'll go into more depth:
As the game has come along, Riot's made a point of updating the modern arsenal of the AD caster. However, they've done nothing to support the person who has to fight against the AD caster. This is my issue: AD casters can have the best of both worlds but the counters of only half. Why is it fair that Zed can blow me up with AD spells -and- get powerful autos? Why is it that tanks have hundreds of millions of niche defense items but not one for the AD caster?
If they buy Thornmail you use abilities instead of autoattacking. Every single ADC can handle doing this and has some form of mitigation against it in the form of lifesteal.
No AD caster would be able to fight against an item that punished them for using abilities. Talon? Useless. Zed? Useless. Renekton? Useless. Pantheon? Useless. Riven? Sorta Useless.
Imagine if we had an item that punished Mages for using magic damage abilities?
ModCaptainMårvelous7 votes
Punishes mages for casting spells. Still available.
Spells lower the CD
etc. Including some champ skills.
I'm not asking for an item that will 100% invalidate AD spells, I'm just asking for something I can build that would make the enemy at least thing twice about using the spell on me. or, at the very least, give me a little better defense than a purely statistical boost.
Kingsgrave3 votes
Punishes mages for casting spells. Still available.
Spells lower the CD
etc. Including some champ skills.
I'm not asking for an item that will 100% invalidate AD spells, I'm just asking for something I can build that would make the enemy at least thing twice about using the spell on me. or, at the very least, give me a little better defense than a purely statistical boost.
Blocking a spell or reducing a CD isn't punishing them. Directly damaging them for trying to deal damage to you is punishment.
Onerios2 votesTheir all punishing, but in different ways. BV is a denial option: you spend resources, but get no benefit from it. Thornmail is a retributive option: you spend resources, and suffer a negative effect as a result, but still get the full benefits of the spent resource.
Solaxo3 votesSightless covered it but let me explain my point further.
Of the original 40, only two champions really had spells that could classify them as AD Caster: Sivir and Ashe, who still primarily relied on autos.
Fast forward to now.
These are all champions with powerful, AD-scaling spells. Some of them (Particularly Yi) have even been reworked to have more AD based skills. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if the items evolved along with the gameplay, but whereas AD items have come to compliment AD spells, the defensive items have not.
Comparatively, tanks items have NOT evolved to accommodate this change. Mentioned it above but I'll go into more depth:
As the game has come along, Riot's made a point of updating the modern arsenal of the AD caster. However, they've done nothing to support the person who has to fight against the AD caster. This is my issue: AD casters can have the best of both worlds but the counters of only half. Why is it fair that Zed can blow me up with AD spells -and- get powerful autos? Why is it that tanks have hundreds of millions of niche defense items but not one for the AD caster?
Pantheon isn't from original 40? Wat.
ModCaptainMårvelous4 votesNope, Panth was right after release actually. Along with Gragas I believe.
Spacesuit Spiff2 votesSightless covered it but let me explain my point further.
Of the original 40, only two champions really had spells that could classify them as AD Caster: Sivir and Ashe, who still primarily relied on autos.
Fast forward to now.
These are all champions with powerful, AD-scaling spells. Some of them (Particularly Yi) have even been reworked to have more AD based skills. Now, this wouldn't be a problem if the items evolved along with the gameplay, but whereas AD items have come to compliment AD spells, the defensive items have not.
Comparatively, tanks items have NOT evolved to accommodate this change. Mentioned it above but I'll go into more depth:
As the game has come along, Riot's made a point of updating the modern arsenal of the AD caster. However, they've done nothing to support the person who has to fight against the AD caster. This is my issue: AD casters can have the best of both worlds but the counters of only half. Why is it fair that Zed can blow me up with AD spells -and- get powerful autos? Why is it that tanks have hundreds of millions of niche defense items but not one for the AD caster?
Why do people on this board need to exaggerate everything to make a point? Cait is in no way an AD caster, neither is Draven or Jinx, Garen is really just a tank.
BlackSunNocturne2 votesCall me a noob, but Tripen?
Is that Trinity Force + LW or?
Rebonack8 votesCall me a noob, but Tripen?
Is that Trinity Force + LW or?
TriPen consists of Black Cleaver, Yomama's Ghostblade, and Last Whisper. Trinity Force often times gets thrown in there as well. Add Mercs and Maw and you've got a deceptively tanky armor shredding monster.
Give it 10% reduced damage from physical abilities. Now there is a ninja tabi equivalent to build against AD casters.
That would work, too.
Quort5 votesUpvoted for "Yomama's Ghostblade!" xD
JustMyBassCannon1 votes"Ermahgerd, mer sperls AD scerling!"
Ermahgerd, Armor still reduces Physical damage significantly, and most of them still deal more damage through basic attacks than spells.
inb4 obligatory "But Armor Pen" reply. Yes, Armor Pen exists, and it's currently a bit stronger than it should be. It still doesn't negate Armor.
ImHerVoice1 voteszed ult doing 600+ damage to a full 250+ armor tank. I've had it happen to me. Yeah. Armor is fucking worthless.
xNitori2 votesThis is a symptom of tanks not being allowed to be actual tanks anymore 
JustMyBassCannon1 votesTHANK YOU! Someone who gets the real problem!
junglerboy161 votesWell, most of the problem has been amplified by this season's changes because the new dragon buffs give large amounts of free damage, but nothing in the game has changed to help out the tanks at all, so I have to agree.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesWith end-game damage scaling higher, and mid-game being a lot stronger than in the past, we end up with a very short window where one team has to get the lead for their tanks to be significant. In the laning phase, a well-built tank is still nigh impossible to kill, but if you're keeping even gold/XP gains with the enemy team, you'll be out-scaled by the second or third team fight, and basically be relying on your team following the instant you initiate the fight.
I mean, that's obviously not always the case, but considering how the entire forum is constantly shrieking about how tanks are worthless, I'd have to assume it's happening often enough.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesZed's ultimate states that it deals 100% of his total AD (one basic attack) plus 50% of the damage dealt for the 3 seconds that his target is marked.
If we assume Zed has Black Cleaver and Last Whisper, and got full Cleaver stacks on his target before the mark pops, he's ignoring 51.25% of Armor, which means that 250 Armor becomes ~122 Armor, physically resisting 54.1% of physical damage. For it to deal 600 damage, just assuming physical damage, it would need to deal around 1300 damage to an unarmored target (yes, I know, his passive deals some magic damage, and his ultimate would deal that part as magic damage, but for the sake of simplicity...)
This, in turn, means that Zed would have to deal approximately 2600 damage in those three seconds, minus that one basic attack's worth of damage.
Now, this is not impossible, but the setup required for it is insane. You would basically have to be challenging Zed alone, and allow him to land a triple shuriken, his E, multiple basic attacks, and he'd need a ton of AD to go with it. And that you didn't CC him during that attack.
Basically, you fucked up against a fed Zed. Congratulations, would you like a cookie?
ImHerVoice2 votesand then you realize it includes his passive and his blade of the ruined king active in the damage amplification.