@ Riot whats the new equivalent

Very Hard Engage·Sep 22, 2016·14 votes·2,116 views

-> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/DPn3JCWUGRk/hqdefault.jpg -> -> -> ->

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ya know the typical "i want to kill something with raw magic damage" build

its kinda dead when you shave off 200 ap dontcha think?

now you've given us 40% cdr builds and any extra item you would want puts us over the top with CDR. or other similar frivilous stats that aren't named AP, DAMAGE.

ludens is just severly under performing... the DFG "replacement" and with zhonyas crippled too... its just ugh, uuuuuuggggghhhhhh

i want to kill something as a mage, and i dont want to have to repeat myself with another combo, you've made it soo much more difficult than it used to be. now i have to be 10-0, 4 levels up to get the same job done.

23 Comments

Mysticman89Sep 22, 20163 votes

item 3285 ?

legionnaire99Sep 22, 20163 votes

Dfg can stay dead fuck that idem

Very Hard EngageSep 22, 20164 votes

active or no active (what broke the item.... it didn't) i want 120ap and 10% cdr.

majulitoSep 23, 20163 votes

item 3147 is the new dfg but instead of starting with it to amp your damage you try to do all your damage before it pops. But oh wait its for ad assassins but finds its way on a couple of adcs.

But i agree ap has gone down and riot hurt a lot of burst mages pushing them more towards dps. And with the loss of ap ryliahs has found its way into many builds because its one of the highest ap items that give health and a nice passive. Back when there were more high end ap items ryliahs was situational but now its why not buy it your cooldowns are low from excessive cdr and you're gonna need a extra rotation or two to kill anything because your ap is lower.

I really hope riot looks at itemization in the preseason. Mages need ap on their items since they don't get ap per level the same way ad champs get ad and as per level. They also need to retune adcs since cdr is more available to them along with flat armor pen.

SimpumbaSep 23, 20163 votes

Issue is, as an ap mage, if they stack MMR you get 2 pen items, 3 if you include the mask, which really isnt amazing though. As AD Gets regards 45% pen, ghostblade 10pen, dusk 10pen, black cleaver, 30% pen when maxed, lasty, idk if this really counts, but botrk to do % of hp. Lets say I'm a AP mid vs AD. All the enemy laner has to do is rush hexdrinker and he should win all trades, and can all-in with the shield. While ap mages get armguard, and have to finish the full item to truly get the benefit. Pen items? Ghostblade has a active, dusk has a proc, while ap items get some ap, and the ap pen. In the end AD just gets better options for money being spent.

In the end DFG was strong, but how come a NEW ad pen item, thats slightly weaker than dfg, however it resets on kills. DFG and Dusk IMO just aren't healthy items, fuck dude, trist mid became a thing because of dfg, so did garen dfg, and now adcs are using duskblade more than the actual assassins. Right needs to focus hard on the items atm IMO, but most will disagree with everything I've said.

WatziSep 23, 20166 votes

{quoted} if they stack MMR "Ah shit, Zed just built Diamond 5"

ABlueQuakerSep 23, 20161 votes

I feel as though item 3191 should get like a 0.5 second stasis so that you can dodge one basic attack/ability.

item 3157 is such a huge investment.

AnonagonSep 22, 20162 votes

Come back to me DFG my love

PennsSep 22, 20162 votes

Just get item 3027 item 3116 item 3030 / item 3152 item 3151 item 3001 on cancor mages and burst people + never die Kappa

LatetotheRaceSep 22, 20162 votes

You have 2 redundant items. I would also recommend boots due to 0 bonus movement speed.

PennsSep 23, 20161 votes

This wasnt supposed to be a final build, 2-4 of them are enough to burst hard + have like 3k health.

notmarkedSep 23, 20162 votes

its called thunderlords

Witch of BabylonSep 22, 20161 votes

I took Twin Shadows, Will of the Ancients and DFG on Janna mid.

cri

Shadow HazardSep 23, 20161 votes

i wish.

W FlynnSep 23, 20161 votes

Mages are more so meant to have to do several combos, as they have more of a ranged advantage. And dfg was pure cancer, and if you disagree you don't remember what it was like then. It was an item that didn't fit a niche, it was good on some champions, but realistically you would just take it as a last item and say "eh why not, I mean now I can one shot their ad in an instant". It was never really a too well designed item, it just let people blow you up really quickly for no good reason. I agree that some mages are fairly underpowered now, but its undeniable that some, IE Anivia, thrive with current build paths. Also, Ludens is in the highest winrate item build for anivia right now, put that down to whatever you want, but its there. Basically though, standard mage build has changed so standard mages, like viktor syndra and lissandra, have fallen out of style. It's not a negative for the meta to have variety though imo.

Very Hard EngageSep 23, 20161 votes

let me know when 1 ability > 1 auto attack. ATM its a pittance of a comparison, cait with her 2k autos.

oh wait... one is relegated by attack speed... and one is gone for 8seconds... or ya know, you miss it outright.

W FlynnSep 23, 20161 votes

Annie Q, 220 base damage at max rank with 80% ap ratio and a 4 second flat cooldown. assuming you have 600 ap, which is actually LOWER than highest winrate annie build has full build, 700 dmg on a 4 second cooldown and 625 range click shot, no need for the opponent to step on a trap, or for you to land a skillshot. vs.

Caitlyn's auto late game, assuming she has 180 extra ad, which is standard build, lets bump that to 200 to be round and count masteries runes and drags. so 200 plus 91 from base, but just to keep that simple lets add that to 290. So if you step on a trap, she gets 190 extra, plus 70% ad ratio, so 393. Assuming she doesn't crit that would be around 680, and if she does then that would be up to 1500 something. Assuming that the player steps on a trap first of course.

So 80% of the time, a highly situational auto attack that requires an opponent to get hit by a skill that is clearly marked on the ground, will do 1500 dmg, the rest of the time doing 680, and can only hit once. But 100% of the time, a non skillshot ability that doesn't require the opponent to step on your trap or anything, can do 700 or over. It depends on the scenario, but if you value consistency, or if the opponent is good enough to not step on traps, then annie is clearly better there.

Another champ with fairly high damage would be veigar. So lets assume fully leveled full build veigar, with 120 extra ap, which honestly is pretty low, but lets just assume that much. With full highest winrate build, and the 120 ap, he gets somewhere around 800 ap. Now his q has 950 range and does 230 dmg, on a 5 second cooldown. Its 60% ap ratio bumps that damage up to around 700 something, now with this build's cdr, 30%, this cooldown goes down to around 3.85 seconds. So a 4 second cooldown spell, with at least 700 damage, that has 900 range is somehow worse than this unlikely scenario, that doesn't even have a full chance to kill them when it occurs?

Both Annie and Veigar aren't even considered good right now, and they have better burst consistency and damage than caitlyn normally will.

majulitoSep 23, 20161 votes

I disagree mages are meant to do several combos. They are meant to poke or burst with a few that do dps. They are bounded by raw ap and cdr. Also in many cases they are bounded by your ability to actually hit the target.

Ap has gone down and cdr has gone up. This hurt alot of mages. Why would I opt for playing a champ thats meant to burst someone if it's going to take several rotations and theres no guarantee I will get the damage off. The answer is utility and cc but when it becomes so spamable it makes certain classes weaker (melee) and some items less valuable (swifties,mercs). Add on that ryliahs is common to a lot of mids because of its cc that works well with the cdr thats on everything.

I agree however that dfg wasn't really fun to play with or against. But at its core it emphasized a part of what being a mage is, bursting someone down.

W FlynnSep 23, 20161 votes

I agree, when I said combos I clearly understated the kinds of mages there are, but I meant poking and things as well. What I more so meant was that for most mages, a full rotation of spells is not supposed to 100 to 0 champs.

However, I disagree that the mage role is meant to be bursting someone down. That has consistently been the assassin role. The champs that are designed to focus on killing one target have been shifted more towards the assassin role, whereas poking ap champions, and champions that do aoe damage or utility, have been shifted more towards the mage class. When dfg was around, it was always much stronger on fizz, katarina, kassadin, etc. Though, there are some champions that are in the mage class that focus on burst who I find have adapted to the removal of dfg fairly well. Veigar and Ahri for example. Ahri was never designed to be a burst mage, she was intended to be a kiting champion, and now is able to fit that role better. DFG was a crutch for veigar, who's kit itself struggled to work, but DFG closed that little gap, whereas now he can stand on his own as THE burst mage.

Overall, DFG I find to be very unnecessary, and ruined the playstyle of lots of champions and shifted them into a more boring, one shot the adc and hope to live, playstyle. The meta itself shifting from this style isn't a bad thing, some people just really miss the way you could shift any champ into an assassin, which was very unfun and had little counterplay. Maybe DFG could make a resurgence, but if it did it would require a bit more counterplay, like item 3152 and item 3147 have now. The click to one shot style made it so hard for adcs to outplay, and I find that rather unhealthy.

MunchCrunchLunchSep 23, 20161 votes

meanwhile annie can 100-0 me in lane at level 7 with just a doran's ring. a full item on first back. continue to get 100-0 when she has flash up

TyroneWatermelonSep 23, 20161 votes

Lmao all the Mage kids want to instakill everyone well guess what now you need to work for it.

Very Hard EngageSep 23, 20162 votes

the difference being no escapes, 10% cdr with dfg or none at all, dirt health pool, one zhonyas active, and one negligible shield. in favor of raw higher AP.

it makes a volatile matchup where the better player wins, i land skill shots, i blow everything on you, you die. if thats something i wanted to consider.

basically why aren't there squishy higher AP build paths. if im landing skill shot after skill shot, i deserve to push you around and command the way the game goes much the same as any other full ham champ does.

NotCounterSep 23, 20161 votes

i'm all for a new high ap item being added or mage item changes in general, but something that gives damage amp sounds really hard to balance between mages who aren't supposed to one shot you and assassins who will have even more relentless burst