Garen has always just been "worse" Darius, can we fix that?

Malicious Metal··121 votes·7,998 views

Every other Juggernaut has their niche, yet Garen's entire "niche" relies on a gimmick that should have never been put into his kit to begin with. There's literally no reason to pick him over any other Juggernaut when you could just pick Darius, or hell, even Mordekaiser.

He's a VERY binary champion with no real niche and ways to outplay or be outplayed and it's really showing in how historically he's always been a just a noob champion everyone just drops once they figure out the game.

He NEEDS something to make him a desirable pick, and with the new Demacia Lore update I feel there's already a pretty good thematic niche to explore with him. "ANTI MAGE Juggernaut"

Demacia's entire lore is riddled with Demacians despising magic and being extremely good at containing it and destroying it, so why don't we make Garen just the Juggernaut you'd pick against heavy AP teams?

He already has a silence that's better against mages than AD champions so why don't we try and shape him to be more effective dealing with magic damage dealers? He does wear Demacian armour, forged with Petricite so it's only logical he'd have more Magic-countering abilities.


Hell, we could just scrap his passive and give him an actual combat bonus: ->Make him take 75% of incoming magic damage directly and the remaining 25% as a DoT over some seconds while giving him a soft heal of 2% max hp over 2 seconds?

Or make his ultimate purge the magic from his enemies, making him just better at taking them down?

I dunno, just throwing around ideas here, I just feel for Garen to ever be a good champion he needs to become less binary and get a proper niche!

Maybe we could get a SECOND Juggernaut class update to fix up the rest of them who are struggling.

421 Comments

Ahristocats13 votes

notice how garen and Sona share some similarities

both are "braindead" offering no skill ceilling, and ability to make you different from other garen or sona players both are generalist with no niche no uniqueness, being either strong or an inferior version of other champions

and finally, both are balanced around low elo making riot thinking that they're fine and ignore high elo players that want a rework

Obnoxious Pen1 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats16 votes

hm? you mean that i'm mad because Sona is unplayable in master?

yes i am, who wouldn't be mad to have his main trash in high elo and balanced around low elo

Obnoxious Pen2 votes

[deleted]

Ahristocats7 votes

[{quoted}](name=Obnoxious Pen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zvpl2Fbh,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-28T18:19:42.743+0000)

You're not in master honey :D

sigh

https://i.gyazo.com/b63d58f4037dc09ab1eae900037b5348.jpg

i don't have the time anymore to chain ranked like before and you're demoted if you don't play ranked in master, if i play again there is no doubt i'll get back to it i'm pretty sure even now with 76 lp on d1 i'm matched with master tier players

[{quoted}](name=Obnoxious Pen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zvpl2Fbh,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2017-03-28T18:19:42.743+0000)

Pro tip:dont only use empowered Q.

as if i didn't know it LMAO but you should still use empowered Q in 80% of the situation

Off Meta Evan5 votes

but dude empowered Q does the most damage, and they can't kill you if they're dead :^) kappa.

Project omen11 votes

I see posts like this a lot in the boards. A lot of people want to make X champion more complex. Think about the new players. They need to start from something simple. The game is already hostile to noobs as it is.

Sahn Uzal53 votes

Warwick is a great example of a champion that gained a lot of depth with his rework, but remained simple for new players like he is intended to be.

Serophous14 votes

I still believe Warwick is the best rework they've done yet because they hit every aspect dead on.

Sahn Uzal22 votes

Sion ''How can you improve on something... that is flawless!''

IMO, Sion is still the best one they've ever done, but Warwick was great too

Baron of Bread11 votes

WW players still have WW. Sion players have Aatrox as the closest thing to what they had. I am not saying new Sion is bad (I don't play him much but I like him), but I still resent the removal of Sion from the game.

Ralanr30 votes

Honestly I think some people got too attached to the unhealthy aspects.

Ariel the Cruel11 votes

Karma

"Getting stronger at lower health is counter-intuitive." Irelia Warwick Tryndamere Olaf

"Supports are too oppressive when solo laning." Lulu Lux Ivern

"All she does is shield people." SupportKarma (How bout that. they made it worse.)

"People don't understand %health heals" Taric %health shield. So much more intuitive.

"Having offensive and defensive capabilities on the same skill is confusing." It's called theme. She was designed around it. Also, Lulu

"She has no theme." Wha- . . . How- . . . You turned her from a diplomatic leader into a generic warmonger! http://dailyweb.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/5.gif

Morello (or was it meddler?): "I never liked her kit from the beginning." Well at least someone was honest about it.

Alas poor Karma, you were before your time.


Pardon my tangent.

Ralanr9 votes

To be fair, Lulu is too oppressive when she solo lanes.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

And yet now, they openly encourage it. Which suggest this is no longer a concern.

Ralanr3 votes

Are they? I thought they were trying to nerf her.

Ariel the Cruel5 votes

Patch 7.2

Lulu’s prevalence as a solo laner was characterized by a combination of strengths she made little trade-offs for, making laning against her a particularly frustrating affair. We solved this by transferring some of her lane clearing power into team utility, hitting her ability to poke champions in the process. Now that the Fae Sorceress sports a healthier clearing pattern, we’re comfortable giving her some offensive power back in a way that augments both her support and solo playstyles.

Flawless Fetus3 votes

Sion was the epitome of "unhealthy". He had 2 builds paths. One of them could 2 shot you with a hard cc for half your hp. Lol. And the other had damage that rivaled yi, while having enough sustain to drain tank while in the enemies fountain. Lol. Good times.

Sahn Uzal17 votes

Basically what Ralanr said, and his VO was basically a joke, just like GP's. Sion was... a mess of a champion, I'm honestly surprised about how much of him remained. The Exploding shield is still there, the health stacking is still there, his old ultimate is kiiinda still there in his passive, and his stun is still there but in a different way. Similar to what they did with Taric's E/Q or Galio/Warwick's Q, y'know?

If you start with a champion, and you see that people are attached to some of the Character's main issues, It's hard to keep too much of 'm around.


That's why I don't think Riot made the mistake of ''Removing Sion'', people were just attached to the specific things that needed to be removed. Allthough you could potentially argue making him a fighter would be closer to old Sion, but other than that... yeah :P

Chromatic Eagle4 votes

Hey I liked jolly pirate Gangplank.

Sahn Uzal4 votes

Aye, a bunch of folks did. But I don't think we can expect Riot to keep that VO in the game, can we? Since they're really building a universe with all these characters.

I'd love to see a 'funny' GP skin tho, probably legendary if it's gonna have a new VO, just to, y'know, throw the old GP players a bone (with his name carved in it) :P

Jeddy01712 votes

People want these champs to have a higher skill ceiling, not a higher skill floor. The Warwick update showed that Riot can take a beginner champ, update him to have a much higher skill ceiling while still being easy to play for beginners.

A higher skill ceiling shouldn't affect new players.

Big Lincoln9 votes

i make this post multiple times and get no responses

malicious makes it, 100 comments

Ralanr13 votes

He has charisma.

Big Lincoln7 votes

I have charisma >:(

Ralanr29 votes

By D&D terms, you have a 7 in charisma.

That's a -2 in all charisma based actions.

TyrekGoldenspear25 votes

Gonna need a summoner 1 for that summoner 14

M0RDEKA1SER4 votes

Why can't I give this more upvotes?

No offense to you Lincoln, but this comment was just pure gold.

Big Lincoln7 votes
SirΤeemο7 votes

[deleted]

Malicious Metal36 votes

He's boring, bland and has no real niche.

Give me one good reason to pick him over any other Juggernaut.

QuickenedBlade4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malicious Metal,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zvpl2Fbh,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-03-28T11:27:48.516+0000)

He's boring, bland and has no real niche.

Give me one good reason to pick him over any other Juggernaut.

reliable burst

Malicious Metal14 votes

Pff..

Sure.

You might as well pick Illaoi or Mordekaiser if you want burst.

SirΤeemο6 votes

[deleted]

Malicious Metal32 votes
  1. He's easily kited
  2. No form of hard cc
  3. No way to reliable stick to his opponents
  4. Has his enemy to be ahead to even get his stupid Villain passive
  5. No in combat sustain

Listing only the strength is an easy way to make things appear broken. Garen is bad, he has a mere 47% win rate https://www.op.gg/champion/garen/statistics/top

SirΤeemο2 votes

[deleted]

Malicious Metal23 votes

Obvious troll.

SirΤeemο2 votes

[deleted]

Malicious Metal17 votes

I never said I can't play garen, I'm trying to make a point that he's a very binary champion with no real niche that results in him being a noob stomper that falls down as soon as the enemy has at least half a brain cell.

Jbels17 votes

{quoted}

"troll" you are the one who can't play garen.. lol you are so pathetic "let's change garen" you are worthless

You're defending the most vanilla, braindead, simplistic, 1-dimensional, boring, bland design in the entire game, and you're calling him pathetic? Garen is the epitome of "why the fuck do we even need this champion?", and you're sitting here in complete denial over how worthless of a contribution he makes to a team? He can execute champions? Big fucking deal, so can Darius, and his execute doesn't have to fulfill a stupid condition to be true damage. Tons of Healing? Darius. Tanky? Darius too. Being able to keep getting kills after blowing your ult on one person? Oh fuck wait, Darius can keep going. Darius even has better fucking CC than Garen, and double the amount of it. Not to mention, h has more synergy with Cleaver than Garen ever will, and never has to resort to gimmicky bullshit builds to stay relevant (cough Yomuu's on Garen cough)

Garen is a washed up design, and the faster people like you start realizing it, the faster Garen can get some help and be worth picking over literally every other champion in the game

CE0 Of Racism7 votes

Did u just say vanilla is bland

TyrekGoldenspear3 votes

Forgive him, he knows not what he speaks.

Up high, Vanilla master race.

Dextix LT2 votes
  1. Yes, easily kited. The only champs that could get caught in his CLEARLY TELEGRAPHED skills wold be those who have 0 cc and 0 mobility, so almost no champion. Also, noone cares if he does not die. Kiting does not care about dying.

2.?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Do you know what the job of the tank is?

  1. He will not even GET to his opponents yet alone have enough damage to delete them.

  2. This means that his passive is nearly useless and so situational that the enemy has tobe winning for it to be of use, and you also dont control it.

  3. Means that he cant stay in combat for long even while he is tanky he wont be able to regain health or use any shields to preserve his health.

Toxic Samurai3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dextix LT,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zvpl2Fbh,comment-id=000100000001000000000003,timestamp=2017-03-28T17:07:31.371+0000)

  1. Yes, easily kited. The only champs that could get caught in his CLEARLY TELEGRAPHED skills wold be those who have 0 cc and 0 mobility, so almost no champion. Also, noone cares if he does not die. Kiting does not care about dying.

2.?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Do you know what the job of the tank is?

  1. He will not even GET to his opponents yet alone have enough damage to delete them.

  2. This means that his passive is nearly useless and so situational that the enemy has tobe winning for it to be of use, and you also dont control it.

  3. Means that he cant stay in combat for long even while he is tanky he wont be able to regain health or use any shields to preserve his health.

Garen isn't a tank... He's a figher. More specifically a juggernaut.

crippler381 votes

Doesn't silence count as a hard cc? I was under the impression that slows were the only soft cc in league really.

EDIT: oh and interrupts.

The Lost Marbles5 votes

{quoted}

Doesn't silence count as a hard cc? I was under the impression that slows were the only soft cc in league really.

EDIT: oh and interrupts.

Hard CC is any CC that prevents voluntary movement.

crippler382 votes

I was under the impression that hard cc was any cc that prevents voluntary action, not just movement.

Glory ln Death3 votes

Nope, it's movement. Stuns, snares, roots, knock-ups/backs, pulls, etc.

Quil Evrything4 votes

It's funny you compare to darius.... Because when I play garen against darius, if I just get some help from jungler to get a little ahead, or even stay decently even.. then I consistently destroy darius late game. And even midgame, depending on how things go.

Malicious Metal74 votes

The deciding factor being; Getting help from the Jungler.

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