Why is Shaco being nerfed?

ChickenWrap··74 votes·4,815 views

In order to make Shaco work well, Shaco players had to build AP with three items that allowed him to deal enough burst to actually kill someone. Echoes, Gunblade, and Lich Bane. Without those items, AP Shaco would be hard-pressed to kill anyone at all. His current burst damage ratio is:

90% from E 50% from Q 20% from Backstab Q

Which is a grant total of 160%, 140% without the backstab. These are perfectly normal AP ratios for an assassin champion.

Riot wants to nerf that to

75% from E 40% from Q 18% from Backstab Q

Which is a grand total of 132% with Backstab, 115% without.

115%. That's almost less than pre-rework Shaco's E did (except that spell actually had a base damage of more than 5-125)

To compare, here are the ratios of some other assassin characters:

Fizz's is 143.3% with QWE, 243% if they've been bleeding two seconds prior (Q, E, W proc will do the trick) LeBlanc's is 160% with QWE. No passive procs Akali's is 210% with QER, Ekko's is 210% with QE with passive Diana's is 250% QRWR

Shaco's position as an assassin that can play AD or AP is a unique one and one that I think should stay put. It gives Shaco a nice niche to play into. AD Shaco builds virtually no AP and AP Shaco builds virtually no AD. AD Shaco is is an OK spot. Not the best, but OK. AP Shaco is in a spot where he can reliably do his job after building all the items he needs to, which is what Riot had intended originally. A weak early-game, a decent mid-game, and a strong late-game. Nerfing Shaco's AP ratios to such an extent with no compensation is going to destroy his ability to keep up with any other AP assassins and he's already struggling to keep up with a lot of the AD ones. To the point where lots of Shaco's just build bruiser and play as an off-tank with damage.

So I'm curious: Why are we nerfing Shaco? Why are we trying to keep him from doing his job as an assassin? Why are we trying to force him out of his AP role? If you need to nerf him, nerf him in small increments or nerf the items that he, and other champions build all the time to increase their burst damage. Lich Bane, Gunblade? Those are the things that make AP Shaco so strong and what make Akali and Fizz so strong. He's nothing without those items and the other champions that use those items use them just as well as he does. Look at the items, then look at Shaco, and if you choose to nerf him, make sure that you don't remove his ability to kill people as an AP assassin, because right now that's exactly what's starting to happen.

@Riot @Meddler

82 Comments

Sèx Craved Eve19 votes

Because Shaco has an "unhealthy" design. And yet Fizz and Leblanc exist.

ChickenWrap7 votes

Then why didn't they "fix" him?

The Yetii Rider3 votes

{quoted}

Then why didn't they "fix" him?

Because they want to VGU him, and they didn't have the time or resources to VGU him with this update. But they obviously had to change him a bit, because if they left his kit alone his Invisibility would be disgustingly gross without the pink ward counter.

Just wait until they rework him. They want to put him in the trash can, same thing they did with Soraka and Evelynn.

SSW Talon1 votes

It's a shame that Evelynn is one of the other few junglers outside of Lee/Hec/Vi/Kha that is setting the bar and being a toxic piece of shit, just like every other time she comes anywhere near being meta. She is WAY worse than Shaco, I have no idea why he is getting trash canned even, even if he is annoying I feel like he has more counterplay than old Soraka and current Evelynn.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Evelyn has been trashed already. They removed her stun, changed her Stealth, messed with her E damage type, gave her W a mana cost...

Evelyn used to be very balanced until Riot made pink wards visible. But Evelyn is on the list for a VGU this year. She's going to feel a lot better soon, hopefully.

VexingRaven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zv4Y1eEI,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-10T06:25:28.894+0000)

Because they want to VGU him, and they didn't have the time or resources to VGU him with this update. But they obviously had to change him a bit, because if they left his kit alone his Invisibility would be disgustingly gross without the pink ward counter.

Just wait until they rework him. They want to put him in the trash can, same thing they did with Soraka and Evelynn.

If this is Riot's idea of Shaco being health I don't even want to know what they're going to do for a full rework. I have a feeling I won't like it.

DDasani4 votes

{quoted}

Because Shaco has an "unhealthy" design. And yet Fizz and Leblanc exist.

So Critsuo doesn't exist...weird

Cloud2731 votes

{quoted}

Because Shaco has an "unhealthy" design. And yet Fizz and Leblanc exist.

Leblanc doesn't have stealth, so in a way she is somewhat healthier than Shaco. You can also dodge Leblanc's chains, but you can't dodge any of Shaco's damaging abilities. You can see where she is at all times and that definitely helps you deal with her. Shaco's stealth is on such a short cooldown you almost never know where he is. And it lasts a long time.

The thunderlords bugfix and letting his crits do normal damage definitely helped him a lot this patch. Maybe a little too much.

Sherlock Clones14 votes

This is pretty absurd that they are nerfing him again. So now his AD build path sucks and they are nerfing AP so how the fuck are we supposed to play him now? Hope we can get 3 or 4 autos off in a fight??? Un Fucking Real riot

DrCyanide1 votes

Obviously the correct answer is to build Tank Shaco.

Shac Norris1 votes

Tank Co.

The Taco Kat4 votes

It astounds me that they didn't just keep the assassins the same way as they did before. Little to no reason for me to play one when I can just play a mage and do the same thing safer. I'm shocked how much they fucked up with Shaco though.

ChickenWrap5 votes

And how much they continue to fuck him up and go "It's OK, right? Yeah, sure!"

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Because instant 100-0s with little to no reaction time and no mechanical counterplay wasn't healthy design.

VexingRaven1 votes

{quoted}

Because instant 100-0s with little to no reaction time and no mechanical counterplay wasn't healthy design.

And yet instant 100-0s are the basically the only way he or most other assassins that don't have invulnerability like Fizz Zed can actually hope to kill anybody in a fight. And even if Shaco DOES kill his target he has no way to get out so unless his team is already winning it, he's probably dead so it's a straight up trade.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

There was also the second intent of the Assassin Update to differentiate the Assassins, as the only one that would see play would be the one with the highest numbers.

Although I wasn't referring to Shaco explicitly before, Shaco's early game did need toned down, but he was mostly fine beyond that.

Shac Norris1 votes

get. good.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

I've started to hate Dark Souls for spawning that meme.

Shac Norris1 votes

It wasnt a meme i told you, you really just have to get good.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

There's nothing "git gud" about it. Why should the Assassin have so many outplay tools, yet not be subject to being outplayed?

Shac Norris1 votes

If you wander alone in the jungle as a squishy champ, you deserve to get caught.

If you're stupid enough not to get a free trinket that disables his W completly all around you in a huge radius, you deserve to die in that fight.

If you don't expect Shaco to be in a teamfight because you don't see him at the moment, you deserve to get killed by him.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

There's the miscommunication. Shaco was the least of 100-0 problems. The guy who I replied to was talking about Assassins in general, Shaco just had an overbearing early game.

Shac Norris1 votes

Yeah, his early game was toxic to most people who didn't main him.

Unless you used your wards early and made sure he didn't invade, which took alot of time and effort.

But nerfing his early game and then destroying his late game is not going to solve any problem, it's only going to create problems on his balance side, of course now people wont have to worry about Shaco, but Shaco himself will become more and more underwhelming to the point that every single other champion will destroy him.

DrugsForRobots2 votes

I don't understand why they nerf his damage instead of giving him more counterplay.

Can sneak up to you invisible? Don't nerf his damage, make his puff of smoke larger and his evil laugh louder. Give his opponents something to react to rather than be insta-gibbed out of nowhere.

Can ambush you with an invisible hard-CC trap? Don't make ultra cheap or free items that hard-counter his traps, make his traps have a delay / triggering animation as they spring, like Jhin's.

Punishes you from running from him? I guess you could make his Backstab only trigger once every X seconds... or you could make him have to Backstab you twice before you get any actual bonus damage - and only then from subsequent Backstabs.


@ChickenWrap: I remember I mentioned changes like these to his Q, W, E, and Passive and you were like, "these changes would make Shaco useless." Then I showed you how his kit should be and you said he was broken OP.

Which is it?

WhatAGeinius1 votes

I'm gonna be completely honest with you bud.

You're rework idea is not good. Stop posting in literally every Shaco-related thread, people are not interested.

In this suggested rework you're essentially stripping him of literally everything that makes him actually fun to play, making every single ability in his kit insanely unreliable (boxes take 3 FUCKING SECONDS TO TRIGGER? ARE YOU HIGH? WHO IS GOING TO EVER GET CAUGHT BY THIS?), and getting rid of everything about Shaco's playstyle that was attractive to the people who play him in the first place.

All for the sake of shoehorning him into only being able to play as this "support assassin" archetype that you want him to be, which is something that he already does and far, far better than the proposed rework by playing AP Shaco, and he does it by actually being an assassin that is self-sufficient with enough items, but that has a kit that naturally makes his teammates' efforts more likely to succeed when he's around. Instead you want him to be a "support asssassin" by forcing him to be completely and totally reliant on his teammates (who may or may not actually be any good depending on the roll of the dice you get with the queues that day) to be able to do absolutely anything rather than being able to rely on his own ability as a player (and thus falling to the same fatal flaw that the support role always has and why no one likes playing it to the point that the game now has to literally force them to) and only being useful as a cleanup champ (and a really bad one at that).

Immortal spax2 votes

Because people are too trash to learn to play against

Filthy Rank2 votes

why did they even rework him, he was equilibrated... now they just made him broke or broken

FantasySniper2 votes

Because he has like a 53% win-rate and his playstyle is oppressive as all hell.

ChickenWrap5 votes

Ivern: 55% Vi: 54% Shyvana: 53% Shaco: 53% Hecarim: 52% Nocturne: 52% Jarvan: 52% Rammus: 52% Skarner: 52% Xin Zhao: 52%

But yes. Shaco's the one with the biggest problems, has the most oppressive playstyle, and needs nerfs. Definitely.

FantasySniper2 votes

Shaco's the most oppressive.

No one finds dealing with Shaco "fun" or even "strategic".

Yeah, Hecarim can do shit, but at least you can see him coming, and he doesn't put traps down that majorly chunk you.

ChickenWrap2 votes

I think based upon all the comments in this thread, you're just speaking from personal experience and may be wrong. Just like how I think Riven and Gnar and Illaoi and Rumble and ChOP'Gath are some of the most cancerous, oppressive, anti-fun, and non-strategic champions in the game but that's my personal opinion and many others don't share said opinion. There's so many ways to beat Shaco at his own game. I don't know why you're not taking them.

Shac Norris1 votes

But yes. Shaco's the one with the biggest problems, has the most oppressive playstyle, and needs nerfs. Definitely.

Yes. Immidiately.

A Basic Island2 votes

shaco stomps the noobs which is the lifeblood of ritos bank vaults

can't anger the cash cows they may leave

Bishasaurus Flex1 votes

Because all Shaco does is kill you when youre recalling with 10% hp

Kr1sys16 votes

{quoted}

Because all Shaco does is kill you when youre recalling with 10% hp

Unfortunately about the only time he can actually kill someone.

Denims Wrath6661 votes

we all know these nerfs are just to tilt shaclone and pink ward, which we can all appreciate... BUT! this is a little silly. shaco isn't doin that hot imo. why nerf his ass besides to tilt people who play him?

rtbf7610927110 votes

because he went invisible and killllled meee wahhhhhhhh

VexingRaven2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Denims Wrath666,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zv4Y1eEI,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-12-10T07:52:25.282+0000)

we all know these nerfs are just to tilt shaclone and pink ward, which we can all appreciate... BUT! this is a little silly. shaco isn't doin that hot imo. why nerf his ass besides to tilt people who play him?

Watching Pink Ward play is amazing, that fact that his playstyle is getting nerfed is honestly really sad.

Denims Wrath6661 votes

I don't understand why riot is even thinking about nerfing him, not like he became completely broken honestly. sucks, always liked having him be hybrid, made urf or 14A good to play him. if they make him just an ad champ pretty much, he's never going to lane.

TeCoolMage1 votes

Shaco is strong because he uses these items well, it gives him late game scaling.

Early game he relies on base damage nearly completely so it's not much of a nerf there.

Late game the ratios add up to let him kill way too quickly.

Worst part is that it's hybrid damage too

The Taco Kat1 votes

Hybrid scales =/= hybrid damage

TeCoolMage1 votes

Q gives scaling bonus physical damage on AP He gets free physical damage on crit

His boxes and items give him magic damage scaling on AP.

The Taco Kat2 votes

Honestly, if they don't build an actual hybrid build while dealing mixed damage, they aren't really considered hybrid; it's like saying Lee and Lucian are hybrid champs. I assume Blitz is a hybrid champion by those standards then, since his Q and R are AP with his E being AD as well.

I must admit that I forgot about the extra scale on his Q now, but it would be stronger if he had it deal magic anyways due to magic pen being more effective.

TeCoolMage1 votes

they're considered hybrid damage though. I never said just 'hybrid' or 'hybrid scaling'

Katarina is a magic damage champ despite having hybrid scaling since her daggers deal magic damage even if you build AD. But she can be hybrid IF you auto a lot.

JDB8eoX8x01 votes

I think it's because Riot didn't intend that he would be played on AP. Maybe they plan to buff AD Shaco in some way and want to gut AP Shaco before they do so.

VexingRaven4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ophelia Dusk,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zv4Y1eEI,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2016-12-10T17:06:53.418+0000)

I think it's because Riot didn't intend that he would be played on AP.

Which is why they added an AP ratio so that ALL of his skills have AP ratios?

WhatAGeinius1 votes

Riot didn't want Shaco to be played AP so they added 3 more AP scalings to his kit

Yeah that makes sense

Jasiwel1 votes

I think a lot of the outrage is more that other junglers are getting off the hook in ways that make Shaco's nerfing appear excessive (it could be excessive, too). That being said, it's not like Shaco didn't have the capacity to be ridiculous to play against. Riot is most likely looking to limit what they consider to be excessive and unhealthy power, to make room for better changes in the future. That's been their more consistent balance philosophy, anyhow.

Edit: Keep your "ADC IS OP" circlejerk to your Clubs. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

VexingRaven4 votes

{quoted}

Riot is most likely looking to limit what they consider to be excessive and unhealthy power, to make room for better changes in the future. That's been their more consistent balance philosophy, anyhow.

ADC nerf where, then? Being straight up 1v1ed by an ADC you caught out as an assassin is pretty unhealthy in my book.

Jasiwel1 votes

My post was made clearly in comparison to other junglers, with nothing regarding ADCs in mind. I did not think to include Class to Class interactions with my response because they weren't directly relevant to my thoughts as to why Riot made their choices.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but your post just offers rhetoric that is basically saying "you're wrong because ADCs are unhealthy in my opinion." It's the same old cyclical horse shit, where if Assassins are unhealthy and kill ADCs in 1 second then they're considered OP; but when an ADC kills in Assassin in 3 seconds because the Assassin failed to kill them in 2, the ADC is OP. This argument goes back and forth with no end - it's completely nauseating and offers nothing fruitful to discussion.

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