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@Meddler, would you consider removing Morde's W passive in favor of tweaking his base numbers?

Malicious Metal··82 votes·2,590 views

We all know his Harvester of Sorrow's XP passive is not only really gimmicky but it's not exactly a very elegant way to make him succeed in a duo lane.

I'm all for making Morde more of a sustained damage thread like you so often advocate since it's a healthier spot for him rather than poof-> clone appears out of nowhere and decimates the enemy.

Him getting ahead early should not be decided by a gimmick but rather by him playing smart and having synergy with his support to actually gain levels and gold quickly by killing the enemy over and over again. You stated you want him to be this late game monster that dishes out a lot of DPS and yet his defensive scalings are rather mediocre if not even abysmally low.

His DPS is bound to him surviving long enough to get his damage rolling but him being rather squishy for a Juggernaut (Capital J) he does struggle if falling behind. For the record, Most other Juggernauts have base health around 2100-2300 and quite a bit of resistances to back it up yet Morde sits at a measly 1700, which is a whole 600 health less than Darius.

At this point his W passive has been nerfed enough for it to not really matter that much anymore so how about killing two birds with one stones and take away the gimmick in favor of more elegant solutions to make him succeed in a duo lane WITHOUT an unfair gimmick. :)

~M.M

53 Comments

rG Thundrag6 votes

I've always assumed morde's base stats and base damages are so garbage by "compensation" of his XP and lvl advantage which seems quite silly in concept

Skoonie1 votes

His base stats have always been rather poor even before his rework, mostly due to the 'free' health he gets from his passive.

DeathBurst5 votes

While we are asking question about Morde:

During most of the PBE cycle, his ult gave 40% Total AD to the Ghost. On the leaked patch notes from Garena, his ult gives 100% Bonus AD. Not beneficing from Sterak's Gage, very little from Trinity Force.

Why? I understand the will to push him towards hybrid, bruiser builds, but I'm not sure this is the right solution...

Malicious Metal4 votes

Yeah I found it quite odd since total AD ratios just seems to fit a late game scaling juggernaut better due to him naturally scaling with levels. Some context would be nice since all other Juggernauts scale with total AD instead of bonus.

Annoxis1 votes

I think it is because the AD scaling in actually a lot more benefic for him early than late. You did the maths, once, if I remember well.

The problem is that Mordekaiser can't itemize well AD because he can only have 3 damage item (too squishy otherwise), one of them is always Rylai, and thus it lets only two possible item to itemize AD. His only AD viable items are :

  • Sterak : Boost Base AD, not Bonus AD. Irrelevant in that case.
  • Trinity : 25 AD. Mostly build with Sterak bacause of the synergy of the two items.
  • Gunblade : 40 AD. No complain about that one.

The other AD item fit for Juggernaut are not that good on Mordekaiser because :

  • Ravenous Hydra : 45 AD. Passive disabled while Q is active. Stats otherwise good.
  • Black Cleaver : 55 AD. Passive useless on him, despite having very good stat for Morde.

Thus at most, 100 bonus AD, with two items that are not the best on Morde.

Count Zubat1 votes

Imo, AD is bad on Mordekaiser. Not only there aren't too many AD items that would be attractive for Mordekaiser (Tytanic Hydra, Sterak's Gage, maybe Gunblade, but it's hybrid), but also he scales with AP so much better. And pls, don't build Trinity on Morde, even before it's rework it was mediocre at best, leaving you very squishy, but right now it is crap for him. Also, just look at Morde's AD ratios. The only Morde ability that has higher AD scale than AP is his Q, and in order for an AD item to give Morde same damage on Q as Rylai or Zhonya, it needs to give him 73 AD, and by buying AD items on Morde, you lose on your W and R damage scaling as well as the heal, which is OP if you stack a bit more of AP.

Imho, AD is just worse on Morde that AP, there are nearly no AD items that are attractive for him, and even then, you can easily find an AP alternative that will be just better. Personally, I go for Rylai, Zhonya, Abyssal, Deadman and for last item either Spirit Visage or Rabadon. If I am against full AD comp, I change abyssal for Liandry. My damage is huge, my heal gives me around 800 HP if I hit 2 champions and I am still very tanky.

Malicious Metal1 votes

According to the DEV corner Riot actually wants Mordekaiser to be played Hybrid

They even asked if Gunblade+Rylais as core would be acceptable and most people actually agreed on that.

I personally think Hybrid works rather well but it's a more ap-heavy build with some very strong AD items mixed in like Gunblade and Steraks. It gives Morde the Survivability/sustain/DPS riot wants him to have as well as synergizing well with his kit.

There's still the problem of a DPS Melee carry with no CC/Mobilty being squishy like a wet paper but that's something that could be easily improved.

Count Zubat1 votes

I don't think Mordekaiser needs Gunblade. Tbh, even old Mordekaiser could be easily played without spell vamp item (KingofEloHell made a guide on Luden Mordekaiser), and with his new healing mechanic, it's even less needed.

I hate Sterak's Gage on Mordekaiser. I can see that a lot of Morde players like this item, but I don't see any point in building it. The AD it gives is mediocre at best, the shield might be good, but if I would like to add another damage item that gives me health to Rylai, I'd just rather build Liandry, deal more damage with every of mine abilities, not just Q and E and generate more of my natural shield + have better heal. I don't see any legitimate reason to buy Sterak's Gage, maybe you can give me some. I don't see hybrid build to be more efficient on Morde than straight tanky AP build, I'm not saying hybrid Mord is horrible, but personally, I think AP Morde is much stronger.

Malicious Metal1 votes

The reason I get Gunblade and Sterak's is to make good use of Morde's extremely high ad scalings. My full build puts me at 250 AD, 350 AP as well as 3500 health. It's a bruiser build that makes sure you survive all the shit thrown at you while simultaneously investing in a balanced Offense/Defense build.

Gunblade's actually a really damn good item seeing that it has a low CD targeted slow/burst spell as well as giving good ol' Morde a lot of damage due to his dual scalings. The real selling point's the way it synergies with Spirit visage, giving Morde obscene sustain on ALL the damage he deals.

Sterak's actually makes your damage skyrocket due to the 25% increased base AD as well as the 50% increase while in Fury form. It's just a great Juggernaut item.

EDIT; Riot actually stated that they disliked AP Mordekaiser since it doesn't provide a lot of counterplay since he either blows you up or he fails and is useless for most of the time. That's why they try to favor Hybrid builds and tone down his burst.

KnightOfEloHell1 votes

You know, I build Morde as a hybrid DPS.

NOT TANK

Guinsoos, and Nashors give awsome DPS for Mord, and enough AP for good heals, CDR for ability spam when focused, and AS to get Q off fast to refresh its cooldown even faster.

You melt squishies in a second

You hit fast as hell.

AD for q and e, AP for other things.

I pick up ONE defensive item IF they have a threat: DMP or SV.

BoRK for EXTRA AD AND AS!!!!! HALARIOUSLY OP WITH THE LATTER ITEMS, hit you become crackkaiser.

Last item is your choice, I like a strong AP item to amp up ult.

NEVER FORGET ENCHANTED SWIFTY BOOTS, GET THOSE ASAP, AS EARLY AS POSSIBLE

RUN GHOST AND RUN HEAL

WATCH MORD KITE PEIPLE TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

DeathBurst4 votes

Yeah cool story bro. But...

  1. It was not the question here. Maybe you replied to the wrong comment?
  2. Calm down on the capslock.
Old Man Teeto4 votes

Give mordekaiser 345 MS and better armor! roars

TigerMama Gemgem1 votes

as a morde main... holy shit, that'd be awesome.

DeathBurst1 votes

That would be OP*. FTFY...

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

He had 340 Movement speed pre-rework, and he wasn't OP.

DeathBurst1 votes

But he had a worse W, and a more reliable but less powerful Q, and a shield that worked similarly but with completely different values. You can't compare just his MS in isolation of the rest of the kit.

All in all, I really think that Morde with a straight 20 MS buff + an unspecified armor buff would be really OP. I may be wrong, I'm no balance expert, but I do play Morde a lot since his rework, and 20 MS would change my life completely.

Raid Boss Morde1 votes

I know that, I was talking more about pre-rework. I think he deserves at least 335 Movement Speed. All of the other Juggernauts have a higher movement speed, CC, and some sort of reliable movement speed boost.

Darius: More Movement Speed, Pull, 2x Slows

Garen: More Movement Speed, Movement Speed boost, Movement Speed Cleanse

Skarner: More Movement Speed, Movement Speed boost, Slow, Stun, Suppress -------- Also has 2nd MS boost, but unreliable

Illaoi: More Movement Speed, Small dash (W) ------------- Also has a Slow, but its unreliable

Just wanted to point out that Mordekaiser got the bad end of the balances for the Juggernauts...

Malicious Metal1 votes

Yeah, his stats aren't in line with the other J's.

NegusInParis2 votes

Perhaps a movement speed increase when he activates his W. This would increase if he is moving towards an ally

qetzel4 votes

On the other hand, why would anybody take Morde into the bot lane without the W passive? He would just be taken top and/or mid.

Adding base stats in exchange for the W passive will push him away from the duo lane that Riot wants him in.

YumaS2Astral3 votes

{quoted}

On the other hand, why would anybody take Morde into the bot lane without the W passive? He would just be taken top and/or mid.

Adding base stats in exchange for the W passive will push him away from the duo lane that Riot wants him in.

Why one should take Morde bot to begin with?

qetzel4 votes

The reason Riot gave was that his solo lane lacks counterplay. It isn't allowed to be strong. By adding in two extra players, the number of options increases massively, which should alleviate the counterplay concerns.

Malicious Metal5 votes

Correction. It didn't lack counterplay. It was unhealthy due to his heavy E poke and massive shield gain.

Both problems that have been tweaked during the rework.

qetzel4 votes

I guess I interpreted "Majority of his gameplay is unavoidable and inevitable (especially for melee opponents) - Morde can often feel like a brick wall of statistics where neither sides' actions or skill matter" as "lacks counterplay when strong".

It is a reasonable interpretation.

My Waifu Vanilla3 votes

Except, as seen in worlds, the only reason Morde bot "worked" was the fact he was vastly outstatting his opponentson and there is no counterplay to be had when he is paired with a hard engage support. There is no way for Morde to be able to work bot without giving him a retarded gimmick or accidently buffing his solo lane since ANY number buff to damage, cds, bases, costs, etc. will buff solo lane as well. This means for him to stay bot lane Riot HAS to give him a gimmicky mechanic to lane against ranged harass and outdamage/mitigate their crits.

Malicious Metal3 votes

Good point yet there's always him being able to make dragon calls, snowball with a great support or simply pick a tanky bot laner if you already have an ad champ in a solo lane.

JMoormann4 votes

His W passive is basically a contradiction with what they want him to be: he is supposed to have an ADC-like lategame focused power curve, but because of his bonus XP he reaches his cap much faster, which also means that his scaling stops relatively early.

You're right, it doesn't make any sense, gameplay-wise or lore-wise.

Matezoide1 votes

Thats the point. The idea isnt for him to hyperscale like an ADC, just scale faster.

tbh, Old Mordekaiser's late game was much better than New.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

Because it would just encourage people to play him in a solo lane. Finding ways to add power to his duo laning without adding equivalent or greater power to his solo potential is really difficult without just making him a support.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Zt3pGWEz,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-12T22:33:07.434+0000)

Because it would just encourage people to play him in a solo lane. Finding ways to add power to his duo laning without adding equivalent or greater power to his solo potential is really difficult without just making him a support.

But he can't be a support, he lacks CC and utility.

Slamurai Jack2 votes

And that's why he's not a support. They did a pretty good job on how they changed his Q and W active to give him power that requires a partner to access, but they still felt the extra exp was needed to really make him viable. Whether or not they could remove that passive and buff his other duo lane strengths enough to compensate remains to be seen.

ltmetal1 votes

Why not make him viable in both a solo and duo lane and just let the players sort him out? I bet that if his passive XP gain were removed and his base stats were bumped even a small amount (3 or 4 base armor, 100-200 health at level 18) he would work better in a duo lane because of it.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

That would pretty much eliminate the point of the rework. Either Morde keeps his no mobility, no CC identity and becomes a bot laner or has new tools added to his kit in exchange for draining his power and becomes a new champion. And making him viable in both solo and duo lanes would basically leave him only played in solo lanes and never bot because people naturally default to the historical way of playing a champion. Hell, Morde atm is played 54% top, 28% mid, 9% jungle, 5% support, and only 4% adc. Adc is still his best role by far but unless he's blatantly overpowered there, people would still rather play him top or mid because that's where he was played before. It sucks to say, but the only way people were ever going to accept Morde bot is if not only was Morde adc OP, but Morde in solo lanes was garbage. Even when Mordekasier was completely broken, people still played him in solo lanes around 40% of the time because they refused to accept he didn't belong there anymore. He had like a 58% winrate as an adc and a 38% winrate top and mid and a solid 40% of Morde players still refused to play him adc. That's how resistant people are to change.

You have to give people excessive incentive in order to get people to change, which is why nearly every new item that comes out is extremely overpowered to get people to buy into it ant then toned down later. Take Cinderhulk for example. I guarantee that if Cinderhulk had been released in it's current state, it would never have taken off and we'd still be complaining that there are 4 viable junglers: Jarvan, Vi, Lee Sin, and Rek'sai. MF also came out of her rework significantly overtuned because Riot knew that would have to make her OP just to help get rid of her joke pick status before the rework. Changing long held opinions takes a lot of force and Riot knows this. That's why solo lane Morde can never be allowed to be anywhere near as good as bot lane Morde ever again,

Gankosaurus Rekt2 votes

I think the reason his health is lower is because they took his shield into consideration. I'm not disagreeing and saying he doesn't need a buff, but It's probably why his health is lower by comparison.

Trying to work him into a duo lane rather then changing him so he's better in a solo really hurt him. The extra exp is negligible, especially if you don't snowball. I'd rather he had more survivability in lane so he can actually get to an item or two and start doing something rather then the extra xp, or even the dragon ghost . It was a cool idea but if his base numbers could be boosted, I'd give it up.

Pyrodinium1 votes

I just want him using his Q to utterly demolish towers if left alone.

That morningstar is just aching to do it.

DeathBurst1 votes

I think the difficulty to push towers is an intended weakness of Morde. That's also why he gets a Ghost Dragon, to push Towers in his place.

That being said, if the Ghost Dragon was removed and the damage of Q reduced on towers instead of completely removed, I'd be happy.

Pyrodinium1 votes

I would contest that pushing is an intended weakness of his, since two of his skills are AoE nukes, and his durability hinges upon constantly using them.

DeathBurst1 votes

I didn't say "shove minion waves", I said "push towers" specifically. I completely agree he is a pushing machine, but I think he is supposed to be weak at taking towers, this is one of the trade-offs of taking Morde instead of a traditional ADC.

ltmetal1 votes

Bump. Even if the answer is no, can we get some context on why Mordekaiser has to have his W passive?

Ultraboomer1 votes

I have to agree. his w passive was amazing when he first came out, and alongside the good rank 1 healing on his w it allowed him to be a good lane bully, but when they nerfed both aspects of this it just feels like his w passive does nothing for him that better base stats wouldn't do better. I would think that mordekaiser should have maybe 2000 base health and some decent armor.

Malicious, I don't knwo all the stats mysef, but when you are saying juggernauts you are referring to them all right?DrMundo Olaf Skarner Garen Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi Nasus(it's possible I missed some). Or just the ones in the "Juggernaut update" and beyond? Garen Darius Skarner Mordekaiser Illaoi

Nikoyopu1 votes

Poppy is considered a juggernaut

Ultraboomer1 votes

I thought so, but she is primary tank where the others are primary fighter or marksman (in the case of Mordekaiser). also a big difference between juggernauts and tanks is the limited access to hard CC and "lack" of mobility. Poppy has not only her ult, but also her single target stun on her E. and poppy's w speeds her up when activated. I like to think she is a juggernaut, but because of the reasons listed I didn't list her due to being unclear on if that's the official stance on her. although now that I think about it, skarner has a stun on his e as well.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

This. So hard to balance that XP jazz.

SUMMON THE MEDDLER. WE MUST KNOW HIS THOUGHTS

Monkey D Luffy1 votes

Ffs

Silents4291 votes

I feel like this will do nothing but get him out of the bot lane where they want him to be, and in his current state, where he kind of needs to be.

Assuming they removed the XP passive and did buff his HP and resistances, I sense kill lanes with Morde to be even more annoying to deal with, he can be kited and outranged, but frankly he still has resource less poke that he can keep hitting the squishy enemy with, while they take longer to even dent him.

Caytheles1 votes

Malicious metal wants him to be a solo laner, which is dumb,.

RyzeRework1 votes

Mpst juggernauts have more hp but they dont have a sheild like morde. Morde has a sheild a heal (which isn't that great) and the whole Dragon thing is pretty op morde has everything execpt a way to not be kited lol I can't tell you how maby times ive played morde into ezreal and not die but get kited for days

Caytheles1 votes

We get it, you want him to be a Solo laner only again....

Look, if riot did everything you told them to then theywould be bombarded with requests for other champs, Mord is fine, infact he is still awesome.

Veraska1 votes

His lower then average base HP is a result of his shield giving him 25% more HP which makes sense to me, a 2100 hp mordekaiser would have 2600 base health with his shield which would be pretty nuts

Doesn't mean his base hp can't be buffed up a bit, but I think that's the reasoning

Aa for changing the XP mechanic I don't think they will if they want morde to exist bot lane, you said he should be rewarded for playing smart and killing the enemy bot laners over and over and that's just the cheesey kill lane MO, it'd be like pantheon/rengar bot, get super fed and murder people or get poked out of lane because your melee, it's usually too feast or famine, the XP mechanic (while being weird) allows morde to exist bot lane and function without going on a murder spree 6 minutes in

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