Will there ever be a Skirmishers update?

Chromatic Eagle·Dec 23, 2016·6 votes·679 views

After Vanguards and Divers, I'm sure that they'll do Supports next. Eventually though, will they ever update melee fighters who deal heavy damage but are fragile?

29 Comments

AnonagonDec 23, 20165 votes

I would expect that Skrimishers would be one of the last classes to recieve a class update. If you take out the champions who need major reworks (Jax, Yi, Trynd), then what's left is probably the best class in the game in terms of champion design and unique reasons to pick them.

ßurstDec 23, 20161 votes

I think that they would most likely receive item changes before any VGU's

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

I think Jax and Trynd definitely need full scale VGUs. Yi's visuals are fine he just needs an updated kit.

I don't think there needs to be a item overhaul for these champions, because as all the other Skirmishers display, there's a plethora of viable item choices for these kinds of champions as long as their kit itself works.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20161 votes

really? because thats like half the class anyway.

AnonagonDec 23, 20163 votes

It doesn't matter if its half the class. The only champions in the class who need reworks of any significant scale are those three, and they need reworks that are beyond the scope of a class update

(well, I guess Yi would be managable with a Graves-scale rework, but there's no point for it to be a "Skirmisher Class Update" with only major one to work on, now would it?)

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20161 votes

yasuo has been problomatic and they even said he needs work. fiora on the other hand has a problem of being either too strong or too weak.

AnonagonDec 23, 20165 votes

Fiora is neither too strong nor too weak right now, so that's entirely moot.

Yasuo isn't nearly as much of a problem as these boards would tell you he is. Him being strong is not him needing a rework. He'll get his nerfs and people will stop complaining (as much).

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20161 votes

you're annoying

AnonagonDec 23, 20166 votes

That's a real relevant thing now isn't it?

NoblewindDec 23, 20161 votes

Yeah fiora right now is great in certain matchups and terrible in others. She turns the rest into skill matchups. I think she's in a great spot.

Nameless VoiceDec 23, 20161 votes

Did you really just (indirectly) classify Yasuo as "the best in the game in terms of champion design"?

RalanrDec 23, 20161 votes

Yasuo is annoying. In high elo he's not an issue.

Nameless VoiceDec 23, 20161 votes

Define "high elo", since he still has the second-highest banrate in Platinum+ games.

RalanrDec 23, 20161 votes

Remember that often "annoying to deal with" is worth a ban in solo queue.

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

Class updates are designed to make sure that different champions in a class offer different things to the game. I'm not going to say Yasuo is a golden example of champion design but there are enough situational reasons to pick him over other Skirmishers, both in countering specific enemies and teamcomps (Windwall) and in having synergies with certain allied picks (Ult)

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20164 votes

This feels like a "rework Yasuo" thread in disguise.

Chromatic EagleDec 23, 20161 votes

He's one of them sure. What would Olaf qualify as?

NightmareAmazoXDec 23, 20161 votes

Diver!

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

no no no

Divers have powerful mobility spells to get them to the backline

Olaf is a Juggernaut - high damage that doesn't need to be built much for, good innate tankiness and sustain, weak to kiting (though uh, not nearly as much as other juggernauts. That ult does some work)

RalanrDec 23, 20161 votes

It's his ult that makes people think he's a diver. He's pretty much a hybrid.

GULAG 4 UDec 23, 20161 votes

He's much closer to a skirmisher to be honest.

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

The Ultimate is more Skirmisher-like if anything, but he isn't a hybrid or anything. The ultimate is just a unique tool for him in within the Juggernaut class.

A Diver can't really exist without some form of dash or blink, along with either hard CC or a primarily burst damage pattern. Olaf doesn't have any of these things.

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20162 votes

Olaf seems like a Juggernaught/Diver hybrid, if I had to put him somewhere. Same as Shyvana and Mundo, really.

GULAG 4 UDec 23, 20161 votes

Olaf is a skirmisher/juggernaut hybrid IMO.

He doesn't have the "GO IN IN IN" tools unlike something such as aatrox.

I put aatrox in skirmishers-divers too.

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

I'd love to hear how Mundo, who has no mobility, burst damage, or hard CC, is in any way a Diver hybrid. I can understand it for Shyvana (even if I would disagree and simply say her ult is a unique tool for her as a Juggernaut), but for Mundo there is literally no rationale for that

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20161 votes

Mundo generally dives the enemy backline in teamfights. I'd say that makes him a diver more than anything else. You don't need dashes or hard CC to be a diver; you just need the tools to gun straight for the backline, kill them, and then survive by being tanky rather than be being particularly mobile like an assassin. Olaf and Mundo do the same thing Irelia does in teamfights: They lock onto the enemy adc and mid, run straight at them, and beat the shit out of them. Garen, ideally, wishes to do the same thing but usually can't, which makes him more of a juggernaut rather than a diver.

A skirmisher, on the other hand, typically relies on very high sustained mobility and outplay abilites in lieu of tankiness to do their job. Fiora, Yi, Yasuo, Leblanc, Riven, Lee Sin, and Nidalee are typical examples of skirmishers. Many divers also exhibit characteristics of skirmishers as well, such as Jax, Irelia, Camille, etc.

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

Leblanc, Nidalee, and Lee are not Skirmishers. Those are two assassins and a diver, respectively. Skirmishers are not defined specifically by "outplay ability". Its high DPS, consistent mobility, and powerful windowed defensive tools that make a Skirmisher. Yes, that leans them into having more outplay potential than other classes, but that doesn't mean that other champions with outplay potential are automatically skirmishers. Leblanc, Nid, and Lee don't have the DPS nor the defensive tools that a Skirmisher have.

Wanting to dive the backline in a teamfight does not make a champion a Diver. Everyone wants to dive the backline. Divers are defined by their mobility tools, which are powerful cooldown gated abilities designed to allow them to get straight past the enemy frontline. Mundo, just like Garen or Darius or any other juggernaut, cannot simply walk past the enemy frontline if they know what they're doing. He is vulnerable to kiting like any other juggernaut because he lacks mobility and hard CC. Even if Olaf and Mundo are the juggernauts who have the best time trying to just walk up to the enemy carry, they still have to just walk up like any other juggernaut and are vulnerable to kiting.

DunkinNoobsDec 23, 20161 votes

You're hung out way too much on specifics and missing the big picture here. Champions are sorted ultimately by how they optimally play, rather than strict guidelines and kit requirements. They can also belong to more than 1 class at once. Leblanc, Lee, Kha'zix, and Nidalee are all skirmisher/assassin hybrids, for example. Likewise, Shyvana, Mundo, and Olaf are all Juggernaut/Diver hybrids, heavily displaying traits and playstyles from both classes. Jax, Irelia, and Fiora are all Skirmisher/Diver hybrids as well, exhibiting characteristics that fit them into both classes. Vew few champions are strictly 1 class. The best examples I can think of are Mordekaiser as a Juggernaut, Yasuo as a skirmisher, and Xin Zhao as a diver. Yasuo and Riven, by comparison, exhibit characters of assassins, skirmishers, and divers all in 1 largely depening on teamp comp, build, and personal preference.

AnonagonDec 23, 20161 votes

No, you're simply wrong. Yes, champions are classified by play patterns, you're simply wrong about those patterns.

Leblance, Lee, Kha, and Nid are all not Skirmisher hybrids. They display absolutely no Skirmisher play patterns. They use high mobility to reach priority targets, burst damage to kill them, and then escape. These are all assassins. Lee specifically is an assassin/diver hybrid because his escape is unreliable and he tends to take more of an initiator role as the game goes on.

Of Shyvana, Mundo, and Olaf, the only one who is a Diver hybrid is Shyvana. Olaf and Mundo display all the tendencies of a Juggernaut - to simply deal and take a lot of damage to whoever they can, and to be especially vulnerable to kiting and CC. To actually play like a Diver, a champion needs mobility.

Jax is a Skirmisher/Diver hybrid, but Irelia is a pure diver and Fiora is a pure skirmisher. Irelia wants to double Q onto a carry, stun them, then smack them to death. That's straight up the most pure version of the diver fantasy that there is. Jax can follow that same play pattern, and he also has the strong windowed defensive tools of a Skrimisher, making him a hybrid.

Fiora on the other hand is purely a skirmisher. She's the most pure Skirmisher there is. She dances around, dealing massive target-neutral damage to whatever she can reach, using powerful windowed defensive tools and consistent mobility to avoid being bursted down. That is the definitive play pattern of a Skirmisher, and its the only way Fiora can approach a fight.