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Riot/Meddler, Elise players are grieving. Can we talk about her?

Auroramancer··144 votes·29,490 views

TL;DR - There is no way to TL;DR this. I'm going to be covering what Riot did to significantly change her, provide some context on those changes and how it negatively affected her, and comparing it to today's landscape. At the end, I have provided a summary as well as some proposed changes.

Riot Balance Team, I hope you guys would be willing to work with us Elise fans to bring her back up to par again. As a former Elise main, particularly in Season 2 and pre-nerf Season 3, I enjoyed her primarily in the top lane, but I also played her in the jungle a few times. Let's recap some significant changes to her...

-Rappel range reduction + Rappel mechanic change (explanation to come) -Cocoon stun duration change -Spiderling health reduction -Neurotoxin and Venomous Bite damage change And most recently... -Healing removed from Skittering Frenzy and added to passive spider form attacks

Just to be clear, these changes were good during the time when Elise and Lee Sin were strongest in the jungle. In the current landscape of League, Elise has almost nothing to work with in terms of viability or not being outclassed.

Let's cover some of the above points...

Reducing the health of spiderlings made them about useless during skirmishes and combat. Even though they take reduced damage from AoE abilities, it is precisely AoE abilities that kill off spiderlings so easily. People don't even bother targeting them because they die too easily to the damage type that they are "buffed" to resist. The underlying problem that Riot was trying to solve with reducing spiderling health was to nerf spiderling tanking the jungle. What they should have done instead was keep spiderling health the same, but make them take increased damage from jungle monsters

Rappel's mechanic was changed because players had a fundamental misunderstanding of how it worked. Players thought that Elise could not land outside of her Rappel circle because they viewed the circle has her landing range, as opposed to her targeting range. So she could land on a target who is visually outside the circle because she targeted them while they were in the circle and the delay made it to where she landed on them outside the circle. Because of this misunderstanding, Riot nerfed how far Elise can travel with Rappel. And then they nerfed the cast range of it. The problem with those nerfs is that Rappel only works on enemy targets, making escapes difficult but possible with a skilled Elise player, and gap closing was easier. The top tier junglers right now (Rek'sai, Gragas, Sejuani) have gap closers and dashes that are independent of targeting anything. So why does Rappel have to remain nerfed?

Neurotoxin's %current HP damage was nerfed because Elise was able to "chunk" her victims during a gank. This hurt her solo laning in the top lane an incredible amount, as mostly bruisers and tanks were up there. But Riot decided to compensate her by increasing her Venomous Bite's damage. Too bad you can't make much use of that "buff" to Venomous Bite because Neurotoxin is dealing less damage to begin with, so her target does not have as much missing HP for Venomous Bite to benefit from. Riot also made it to where the execute damage cap on monsters will increase with rank. Top tier junglers have %MAX HP dmg that is reliable to land during ganks. That %max HP damage of those junglers has a cap that is static through the spell ranks against jungle monsters, but Elise doesn't benefit from a static cap. The damage shift to Venomous Bite really doesn't amount to much because of the damage nerf to Neurotoxin, and top tier junglers shove out Elise because of her scaling %missing hp cap against monsters, while they benefit from a static cap

Cocoon's stun duration was changed because Riot wanted her to have to rank up the stun duration. Which is alright, some champions have hard CC duration increase with rank too. But compared to top tier junglers like Gragas and Sejuani, whose hard CC durations do not change with rank, Elise falls behind in that category. And many top lane bruisers/tanks have hard CC that does not increase duration with rank either, so Elise is outclassed here. Top tier junglers and top laners have hard CC duration that does not increase with rank, but Elise has to rank up for it. In addition, these junglers and top laners have damage tied to their hard CC, while Elise doesn't. So double whammy for having to rank up a zero damage hard CC to get more duration out of it

Potential counterargument about the Cocoon point is that it is a ranged hard CC, with a decent missile speed. I'd make a rebuttal addressing how Gragas and Sejuani, top tier junglers, get to gap close AND stun/knockup with a single spell, while Elise has to use 3 spell casts in order to do the same thing.

Skittering Frenzy's healing was removed, and instead placed onto her passive spider form attacks. There are several problems with this. You aren't able to appreciate the healing because it's so minuscule and spread out over time, instead of in an appreciable burst. It also forces you to stay in spider form for awhile to get some good healing, whereas before, you could max out spiderlings, use W and get a good burst of healing right away; so, you have to invest more time to get a decent amount of healing done. This also means that you can no longer let your spiderlings heal you when you are running away from a target; you are required to attack that target yourself in order to benefit from the healing, which feels bad compared to before. Elise's new healing mechanic is not appreciable, consumes more time to reap considerable benefit, and has removed healing from spiderling attacks only

Rappel's damage boost to Spider Form attacks is near useless. When Elise's playstyle was optimized, you only used Rappel to stall out a duel/fight, chase down a fleeing target, or to jump to a jungle camp/enemy target for a tricky escape. And even then, the most optimal use-case for Rappel during duels/fights is to wait for your Venomous Bite or Human form cooldowns to time out a bit so you can fight again. If you're using it to chase down a fleeing target, at most, you can get off a Venomous Bite and that's it; you go back into human form for more spell combos. The only real benefit to Rappel's damage/healing boost is for when she is Rappeling onto a jungle camp in Spider Form, which is already not optimal because she starts out camps by casting Volatile Spiderling and using Neurotoxin on the large monster. Riot is discouraging her best combo order for jungle camps by encouraging starting camps with Rappel

So to summarize, the reasons why Elise is really weak in the jungle and top lane is because: -She has to invest much more into her zero damage hard CC than other top tier junglers/bruisers/tanks have to -Her target-dependent escape/gap close was nerfed because of player misunderstanding, and is outclassed by target-independent gap closing junglers/bruisers/tanks -She has to invest more into monster execution damage cap compared to other junglers -Her most recent change to her healing is not appreciable, requires greater time investment, and removes some previous trick cases of skill -Rappel's damage boost is mostly useless, and even then, it's best case use is actually worse for her when it comes to jungling

Easy for me to complain about these things. What would I propose to change about her to bring her up to par? -Standardize her Cocoon's stun duration again -Restore Rappel's cast-range again, but keep the drop-range limiting factor -Standardize her monster execution damage cap across all ranks of her Q, and up to par compared to other junglers with the same execution damage -Put her healing back onto Skittering Frenzy, reduce her base HP regen/growth stat -Put Rappel's damage boost onto Skittering Frenzy, not buffing her spiderlings damage output though -Increase spiderling health again, but make them take increased damage from jungle monsters

What goals would the above changes work to achieve? -Bring Elise's gank potential/hard CC capabilities up to par compared to other junglers -Bring Elise's jungle monster execution/objective security up to par compared to other junglers -Re-establish some of Elise's former gap closing to then compete with other junglers who can gap close independently of another target unit -Make Elise's healing more appreciable and visible, without making her always topped off in HP wherever she goes -Apply her damage buff to a more logical/thematically sensible part of her kit -Make spiderlings relevant in fights again, without increasing their jungle tanking capabilities.

Thanks for reading

156 Comments

RiotMeddler39 votes

I'll have to get back to you about Elise tomorrow once I've had a chance to get some thoughts from the balance team. I know their intent was that 5.12 would be a buff for her (kit changes and Runeglaive), I'm not sure what their thoughts on follow up changes are however so will need to pick their brains.

Chairs6 votes

I am of the strong opinion that a Sheen item is not good on her. Perhaps better than raw AP, but not good. If you want to actually buff her, I'd suggest reconsidering what items to gear to her. I made a pretty big post on it earlier this month, would like to kindly request you to take a look at it ;-;

Terchio4 votes

I second the Sheen sentiment. Terribly low base AD and high item dependence in a number of areas leave Sheen being a waste of space.

LankPants2 votes

I honestly don't feel like Runglavie is even the best current item for her. The AP is negligible and she's never had problems with mana sustain in the jungle anyway. I think that Cinderhulk is a better item for her, the extra HP's just better than the small amount of extra damage that you get on Runeglaive, although I think Devourer in its PBE state is better than both.

I think she needs real kit buffs, the last changes weren't buffs, they just shifted some power around on the kit. Her sustain is lower than it was before, 4/6/8/10 base heal per attack is just a joke and 10% of her AP isn't much better, you need 400 AP to get a 50 HP heal on auto, which just makes you way too squishy.

I'd prefer the old heal to what she has now, 4+4% is better assuming you have at least two spiders. Even with the E bonus healing it's still weaker than the old 5 spider healing which gave 24+24% heal per hit compared to 20+20% with her current heal.

Her heal was ninja nerfed right before she was released from the PBE, on the PBE she had a heal value of 5/10/15/20 + 15%. I don't understand why it was decided to hold back so much on Elise's buffs. She clearly needs help and you guys just went against actually helping her.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

I really don't like the idea of the new devourer on Elise as it gives no really good combat stats on her when you buy it. You also have to invest very heavily in the item to get the most out of it. You would end up being a melee dps squishy carry by lategame (if you can make it to that point because it will take you 25 minutes of farming to get to the point where you can actually make an impact). It really doesn't cater to Elise's ability to create pressure early as she doesn't get offensive stats that heavily benefit her. The Sated state of the Devourer isn't very strong until Elise has a meaningful amount of AP and Nashors Tooth to make the passive on Sated strong enough to warrant having it over either Cinderhulk OR Runeglaive.

Right now I feel the best item for Elise is Cinderhulk. Getting Liandry's, Rylai's, Abyssal, Void Staff, or even IBG (possibly Zhonya's) as possible offensive items. Get one or two of these items and build tank for the rest of your items. Some of these items are getting buffed next patch so we will see if this helps her at all. Runeglaive does give her a little bit extra burst in the early game, but it doesn't really help her beyond that point. It really makes her kit front loaded as you are trying to get a lot of burst damage out quickly, but it doesn't help you in the more sustained fights in the later parts of the game as you have less AP than if you bought a Liandry's, and you have less defensive stats to keep you in the fight for another round of Sheen procs. That along with the lack of burst healing from her spiderlings make her MUCH squishier in a fight than if built tankier with Cinderhulk.

The old heal values on the PBE 5/10/15/20 on hit were probably making her much too sustain heavy in the jungle (WW level) and that along with her E bonus would have made for a really tanky spider in a fight with 40 +.3 AP on hit probably hitting 80 hp each hit by late game if she jumps into a fight with a tanky build. However, I think these changes would have been really strong on her and would probably not be game breaking as she STILL clears the jungle at full health so that wouldn't change, and she simply gets run over by tanks right now and this would at least put her closer to par with them when playing as a tank for her team. Right now, the only thing that her new heal is good for is sustaining in the jungle. It really doesn't help her in the span of a fight that is shorter than 12 seconds of her auto attacking.

TLDR: Devourer won't be very good on her despite her having an on hit effect in her kit; Runeglaive isn't that good on her (or is it just Runeglaive?); her healing isn't great right now when compared to her old heal, except for clearing the jungle healthy (which she really didn't need help in).

LankPants1 votes

I really don't like the idea of the new devourer on Elise as it gives no really good combat stats on her when you buy it.

It does give an effective boost to combat, 30 on-hit magic damage is effectively 100 AP worth of damage on her ult that doubles up to 200 AP's worth, obviously it's not the equivalent to 100 AP overall, but I'd say it's at least comparable to Runeglaive. One other thing that most people don't consider is that it allows you to use your human form AAs for something.

You would end up being a melee dps squishy carry by lategame

If you go for a Nashors/Deathcap build with it you will, there's nothing that says you have to do that though. I think a much more effective build would be something like Devourer/Wit's/Abyssal/HP Item/Armour Item/Shoes.

If you assume the Armour item to be Rand's/Sunfire, The HP item to be Liandry's, and shoes to be Sorc's you wind up being fairly bulky. You're not a Cinder level tank, but your damage will end up a lot better.

if you can make it to that point because it will take you 25 minutes of farming to get to the point where you can actually make an impact

You don't need to farm Devourer that hard. Since you get stacks on kills/assists and get +5 whenever you take Drag/Baron you wind up stacking it just by doing whatever you'd normally do anyway. Also 25 minutes is a hella long time to get 30 stacks power farming, if you do power farm you can get them in about 17-20 minutes, 17 with a drag, 20 without. I'd say 25 minutes sounds like a quick stack while playing the game normally.

Hard4Hamsters1 votes

item 3718 item 3143 item 3091 item 3151 item 3001 at full build. Total cost 13140 plus boots we'll just assume 1100 average. 14240 gold total for full build. You end up with 800 bonus health, 80 bonus MR, and 70 bonus armor as far as tank stats. Elise has very poor health already so you will end up with around 2600 HP or 2800 with HP/lvl seals, 150 armor, and 110 magic resist with no CDR. I would hardly call that bulky for a full build (my current tankier Elise build is 4000 health 250 armor and 110 magic resist with 30%+ CDR for the same price and that is barely enough to keep you alive in the lategame). In addition, what would be your build order with this build. Are you going to rush your Wits End and Liandry's to make the most out of your DPS when you complete Sated devourer, or do you work on your defensive item(s) to make sure you can survive a fight? With the Cinderhulk build, you build tankiness and damage almost simultaneously between Cinderhulk, Haunting Guise and/or Abyssal during the early parts of the game to make sure you are the strongest you can be during the time that you are strongest as Elise.

You don't get your jungling item until 8-10 minutes depending on if you pulled off a successful gank and got a kill. If you do not succeed in your early ganks, you are going to be very weak when teamfights start as ALL you will have is some damage on hit and a 1.25 second stun to contribute as you will have nothing behind your Q or W in terms of bonus damage. The only way you would be able to secure dragon is if your other lanes were already winning on their own. This pretty much assures that you will either have to power farm or fall behind and you will still be lacking in combat ability.

Also if the opposing jungler/team KNOWS you are building devourer they are just going to take control of your jungle as you will not be able to defend yourself when they invade. This might not be a big problem in Bronze-Gold due to people not knowing how to punish champions in the jungle when they are weak, but above Platinum, it is almost assured that you will be defenseless in your jungle during the time you are trying to stack your item. Being pressured off of your camps or wind up getting killed if you stay are real possibilities.

Bottom line. Yes, you can probably get more damage from going the Devourer route than getting another jungling item, but because you are hurting your strongest point in the game as Elise, you will probably not do well with that glass cannon-ish build unless your team is already winning the 4v5 handily. Elise needs to be effective early if she is going to do well, and Devourer does not help her excel in that area.

LankPants2 votes

I'd argue that by the time you actually complete a jungle item as Elise you're already starting to fall off. Elise peaks at Lv 3-4 she starts to fall off hard at Lv 6, by Lv 9 she's borderline irrelevant.

Elise's itemisation hasn't been about how well you can scale into late game since S3, rather what the best way to stop yourself being useless is. At the moment the best way to keep relevant is to be a tanky stunbot, which is kind of sad. If this item allows Elise to trade her already trash mid game for a decent amount of late game damage then it's a godsend.

Also if the opposing jungler/team KNOWS you are building devourer they are just going to take control of your jungle as you will not be able to defend yourself when they invade. This might not be a big problem in Bronze-Gold due to people not knowing how to punish champions in the jungle when they are weak, but above Platinum, it is almost assured that you will be defenseless in your jungle during the time you are trying to stack your item. Being pressured off of your camps or wind up getting killed if you stay are real possibilities.

Oh, that's why Feral Flare and Devourer were both trash on release, thank you for imparting that knowledge on me, I never would have worked it out myself.

Seriously though, you can't control an enemies entire jungle until you've destroyed their entire first and second line of turrets. If that's happened before 20 minutes you're probably in trouble no matter what you've built. There's almost always a way to generate a couple of stacks a minute, and as you stack up you create a ticking time bomb where eventually you will stack devourer and get a huge powerspike.

but because you are hurting your strongest point in the game as Elise

Building Cinderhulk also hurts your early-mid game. If Elise was truly that dependent on that stage of the game Runeglaive would be the single best Elise item. As I said, Elise is powerful before she completes a jungle item, after that you're just trying not to become irrelevant.

Elise has very poor health already so you will end up with around 2600 HP or 2800 with HP/lvl seals, 150 armor, and 110 magic resist with no CDR

Which is partially offset by the build having a higher amount of innate healing. But yes, this build is squishier than Cinderhulk, it also outputs around 3x as much DPS. I think personally I'll take that trade, Elise isn't Sejuani, she doesn't get more powerful by just stacking tons of durability.

Are you going to rush your Wits End and Liandry's to make the most out of your DPS when you complete Sated devourer

Basically. Devourer>Wit's>Haunting>Whatever Tank Item you need. If you start falling behind just skip the Haunting.

ALL you will have is some damage on hit and a 1.25 second stun to contribute as you will have nothing behind your Q or W in terms of bonus damage.

Congratulations, you just described Elise in her current state and everything that's wrong with her.

SoMNia2 votes

I agree with those saying that Runeglaive is not even an attractive item on Elise.

The focus being on rapid autoattacks to maximize her on-hit damage, she very often won't want to stop attacking to cast another ability, wasting the bonuses from Rappel and Skittering Frenzy. She wouldn't normally build a Sheen item at all when Magus was around, for the same reason she wouldn't take spell weaving/blade weaving masteries; it's contrary to her attack pattern. Her spider form having no mana cost, and now her health sustain not requiring her to keep active spiderlings at all times, also means she doesn't need the mana sustain as much. However, the new Sated Devourer would be a large boost to her damage if she were able to survive rushing it and finish stacking it.

What she really needs is for Rappel not to be such a bad engagement tool that she needs a second gap closer to begin attacking, and ends up blowing her execute Q before she's done the bulk of her damage, just so she can stick to her target. Her spider form attacks are powerful, but she has trouble actually attacking in spider form. Please make Rappel stop missing so much.

Auroramancer4 votes

Thank you Meddler! When you return, perhaps we can discuss further, depending on what's brought up.

Some things I'd like to know from the balance side are:

1.) We know that Elise is in a not-so-good place. Has the Balance team identified the why of her current state? Not necessarily "well we nerfed her a lot in the past"; rather, "these are the factors we feel are making Elise very weak right now".

2.) Is she so far gone that she will need a Gameplay Update in the future?

3.) Is the Balance team dedicated to keeping Elise as a jungler and shoving down her solo lane potential, or are they attempting to preserve a jungle/solo lane potential with her?

RiotMeddler9 votes

Elise's power curve's been one of the big issues. Her E rank up's always been weak, which has led to a weak late game. Combine that with a really strong level 3 (something we see consistently from form swappers as a side note) and she can be extremely dominant early while falling off very sharply late.

Another issue is that her ability to provide pick potential from the jungle, without having put herself at risk (Cocoon), tends to be much more valuable in co-ordinated play than solo queue. That's made it hard in the past to find a balance point where she's 'viable' in solo queue without being oppressive in organized play.

Some form of gameplay update's certainly conceivable at some point, Elise does have some issues that it's proven difficult to address purely through balance changes. Very unlikely that'd be this year though even if we did conclude that was the appropriate course.

We feel Elise's kit's a natural fit for the jungle, so balancing around her presence there's the starting point. Wouldn't be opposed to seeing her in lane again if that both resulted in healthy play (so not just human Q spam) and didn't require she be massively overtuned as a jungler in order to be viable in a laning position.

Auroramancer2 votes

Thank you for responding, these are great answers to the above questions; I appreciate you taking the time to discuss this with me/us. I did forget to ask another thing, what is the current state of her Spiderlings? Does the Balance team agree that they are too weak/easy to kill, and they would be too strong to buff in the jungle?

I've also got some ideas to run by you, and maybe you or the Balance team can give your thoughts on these ideas, either individually or as a whole? (wall of text, sorry)

So Cocoon is identified as a problem area, particularly in competitive play, as well as her 3-spell power spike. I have a few grievances with how she feels to play right now, and maybe we can address these grievance areas to then allow some space to strip meaningful power from her in the problem areas listed above?

Grievances/feelsbadman 1.) If her Cocoon's stun is holding her back from power elsewhere, I'm willing to change the CC type on it to strip some power from it and give power to other places in her kit. 2.) Skittering Frenzy feels very weak now with its healing mechanic stripped from it. 3.) Venomous Bite's pseudo-channel time is a usability issue for me, it REALLY sucks to have the animation and sound go through to completion, but the target ducks into brush or I get hard CC'd and the damage doesn't apply (Venomous Bite doesn't go on CC though). 4.) Her Rappel's drop location mechanic feels really bad. Because of the drop delay, her opponent has a large window of time to increase the gap, sometimes too far to where she can't use Venomous Bite to close the gap anymore. It has more to do with what location she drops to as opposed to the drop's delay time.

Proposed changes, TL;DR- 1.) Turn her Cocoon stun into a very high % slow (maybe decaying). Increased rank extends the decay duration like Lulu Glitterlance. To strip power off Cocoon while preserving a core part of "I want to immobilize my opponents to close in" as opposed to fully stun them. 2.) Move Rappel cast combat bonuses onto Skittering Frenzy. To help Skittering Frenzy feel better and give it a feel similar to Olaf's Vicious Strikes for brief, in-combat bonuses. 3.) Make her Neurotoxin %current HP damage increase with rank (maybe up to current values?). To then remove the scaling %missing HP cap against monsters on Venomous Bite, and remove the brief pseudo-channel cast on Venomous Bite. 4.) Have Rappel drop Elise on her target's current location on drop, not their location when she cast the spell. If we move Rappel's combat bonuses to Skittering Frenzy, I feel we can add this power back to Rappel without changing its range.

Context-

I'm glad that we're able to identify Cocoon as one of her issues. I can say from extensive experience, I use her Cocoon for the sake of immobilizing my opponents. Sometimes I use it for the stun, and interrupting enemy spell channels is very clutch, but seldom. I'd have to estimate that I use Cocoon offensively and defensively for the sake of immobilizing my opponent, about 80% of the time.

So because her pick potential is so strong in organized play, and I can assume that most solo queue/non-competitive Elise players also use their Cocoons primarily for immobilizing (this is probably different for competitive play), perhaps we can change her Cocoon's effect to a very high % slow (90~%)? I wouldn't mind if the slow decayed either, and as the duration increases with rank, then the decay time extends (kind of like Lulu's Glitterlance). I'd be willing to have Cocoon's power stripped in this way so that she can get some power in other parts of her kit.

Also, how feasible would it be to move Rappel's combat bonus/steroid onto her Skittering Frenzy? IMO, Rappel's combat bonus/steroid feels bad to use, and placing this bonus/steroid onto her Skittering Frenzy would help with the feel of "this is my healing spell, and it boosts all of my melee combat factors for a brief period". It'll give her a kind of Olaf's Vicious Strikes feel, where you have a brief period of time to stay in combat and heal up or dish out extra damage.

Regarding her Q, maybe we could make Neurotoxin have it's %current HP damage also rank up? In exchange, remove the scaling damage cap on Venomous Bite against monsters, and also remove the brief "channel" time on Venomous Bite? The biggest thing for me is the pseudo-channel time on Venomous Bite, I've missed out on so many kills when an enemy ducks into a brush or I get interrupted; the damage doesn't go through, but the animation and sound still play to completion.

Not much to say about Rappel's drop mechanic. I'm still convinced that the drop-location change was due to a misunderstanding on the part of Elise's enemies, and it feels really bad to drop to where your target was ~0.75 seconds ago, outside of Venomous Bite's range. I didn't think the drop mechanic was overpowered before, and it just feels bad to use because of the inevitable thought in the back of my mind "if I use this, they're still going to be out of range anyway, why bother using it".

Thanks again Meddler!

RiotMeddler13 votes

Current thoughts on Elise:

  • 5.13 contains both a significant Runeglaive buff and adjustments to a number of items Elise tends to build. It's debateable whether Runeglaive's the correct jungle purchase on her, but it is getting bought a significant amount given it's new and she's just been changed.
  • Elise's play rate has shot up a lot given the changes to her in 5.12 and the addition of Runeglaive. That's resulted in a lot of struggling players which has depressed her average performance.
  • Given that combination of factors we're holding off on Elise changes for 5.13 and instead taking another patch cycle to assess her state.
  • We will however be buffing Elise in 5.14 unless we start seeing her perform significantly better in 5.13 than in 5.12.
LankPants3 votes

5.13 contains both a significant Runeglaive buff and adjustments to a number of items Elise tends to build. It's debateable whether Runeglaive's the correct jungle purchase on her, but it is getting bought a significant amount given it's new and she's just been changed.

I'm not so convinced about the effects of that one because itemisation changes affect a wide range of champions. While the changes will make Elise stronger they also affect her main sources of competition too, namely Nidalee and Ekko, although the buffs are applicable to any AP jungler.

so chad8 votes

Why does your team think a buff to Runeglaive is a buff to Elise? To a lesser degree, why do they think AP itemization changes will do much for her? You don't have to watch a lot of games to realize that Elise isn't building those items. Her current core build is Cinderhulk -> Sorc Shoes -> Liandry's -> Frozen Heart/Locket.

She will need changes to her kit to make use of any of the AP items effectively, whether just numbers or more fundamental changes. Elise started with a serious case of role confusion and you've only made it worse by doing things like the recent Rappel changes. It is clear that your team wants her to be the Mage/Fighter she is tagged as, but until you give her some way to stay in fights it can't happen.

Crett17 votes

When they buff Elise, I think it's very important that they shift some power to the spiderlings. They are a clear mechanic with plenty of interesting potential interaction that really should be further explored

something like a new passive on her R Spiderlings gain bonus movement speed whenever an enemy unit is targeted by an ability (Q, E) 40/60/80% give them sticking power but keep it from being oppressive in lane by tying it to her ult level (no boost at rank 1). then they need to be a lot more durable late game

its not geared much towards her biggest problem areas, but its something id like to see

Auroramancer4 votes

Yeah her spiderlings are pretty bad right now, and they are important to her thematics.

If she's ganking, they don't do much. They will get maybe 1 auto attack off after they gap close when she uses Venomous Bite. Pretty much all AoE abilities in the top lane will kill all of her spiderlings with one spellcast.

I'd like to see better control of them on the player's part. Have them follow a target that Elise is right-clicking on, give them more move speed with Skittering Frenzy, and give them better "jump reaction" after she uses Venomous Bite while Skittering Frenzy is active.

Rrett9 votes

oh hey nice name.

Crett9 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T28imvKgOdk

HailFire Dragon8 votes

I feel like Elise is too much of a jack of all trades and therefore the many many things she can do has to be weaker than other champs in order to justify it. Her ranged cc, tank busting with % max hp spells, squishy killing execute ability, situational targeted gap close/ escape, and the ability to either go tanky or squishy ap damage assassin each with their own balance problems.

I think they should change her into a specific role( preferably the tank killing ap bruiser who is made to destroy tanks.) then they can change her spells so that they loose the she can do what all other champs can do but worse and make it so that she has something no other can do.

For example I would like it if she was like a ap trundle who debuffing tanks and makeing them pay for building resistances or or hp. And take advantage of their low mobility.

Vistha Kai3 votes

You see, Lee Sin is also a jack of all trades champion, but he isn't outclassed by every single champion in the category.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

By your argument then, Lee Sin should be Elise tier. But he's not (in part because of his insane ratios and better mobility)

Auz the Ripper3 votes

They tried to rework him back in season 4 to address his overloading but all the lee sin mains raised hell and there were enough of them to get riot to stop.

Narasimha6 votes

This also means that you can no longer let your spiderlings heal you when you are running away from a target; you are required to attack that target yourself in order to benefit from the healing, which feels bad compared to before.

Just to jump in, I suspect that was the entire point. A heal on attack should be just that. A reward for being in combat. You shouldn't be passively healing while running away unless you have a dedicated heal ability or you're Mundo/Singed.

Akali MIA Care5 votes

"The top tier junglers right now (Rek'sai, Gragas, Sejuani) have gap closers and dashes that are independent of targeting anything. So why does Rappel have to remain nerfed?"

Because elise's rappel also makes her untargetable. the 3 you named don't. Elise's rappel isn't a dash and can't be accurately compared to the dash mechanics you named

To put it in other words, elise can cancel/negate enemy spells with rappel. the others can't.

Auroramancer3 votes

I made that point because jungle Elise really only uses 1 of Rappel's features at a time. You aren't dodging a spell while gap closing for a gank from the jungle. You aren't gap closing when emergency dodging a spell.

From the jungle perspective, you're using Rappel to gap close, which is why I compared it to other gap closing junglers.

Akali MIA Care3 votes

Maybe not if you only use it to gank from fog of war, but I've seen multiple times that an elise baited an ult, say veig for example, hit R E from her human form to both negate the ult and gap close.

It's not done that often, this is true. But it's the possibility of it happening that makes her rappel strong.

imagine playing against someone who actually practices doing it, basically a guaranteed spell negation on rappel CD.

Auroramancer2 votes

Best case scenario of Rappel gives spell negation AND gap close.

There's lots of things we can talk about when it comes to best case scenario... Lee Sin kick having a 5-man knockup Hecarim using his ult to terrify AND defy ALL CC from enemy team Vi doing nearly the same thing as Hecarim Zed using his ult to negate a spell at the same time as going all-in on someone

Elise is not unique in this regard of using a spell to it's most optimal use case.

Akali MIA Care4 votes

lee sin kick would require 5 enemies basically lined up for it, hecarim's do that pretty often anyway Vi does as well... and zed does that aswell.

Oh, and all those you just named are ultimate abilities, rappel is not and therefore cannot be accurately compared. (they also require misplay by enemy, elise's rappel does not.) Oh, and none of those actually negate a spell. Elise's rappel does. They may block cc, but they don't block damage and can't completely negate a spell after it's been cast. So yes, Elise's rappel IS in fact, unique in this regard.

LegacyDAP2 votes

What about Ekko's W? It can shield, and stun/slow best case regard. So I mean if Elise can't have a spell dodge + gap closer I'm pretty sad.

Fizz also has something like Elise with his E, it's a worse gap closer, but it does more damage.

Akali MIA Care2 votes

Ekkos W is just a shield that stuns anyone inside it, he usually has to dash to someone inside to land the stun portion unless they're dumb enough to stand next to him for long periods of time.

Elise still has her spell dodge, just a nerfed version. All champs go through nerf/buff cycles though because riot balances their game through nerfing champs into oblivion, and then the champ that hasn't been nerfed in a while becomes OP and they eventually get nerfed.

except lee sin. he is the true op

CatSith3 votes

Then they should nerf fizz's E, it makes him untargetable (cancels and negate spells) with a gap closer and when landing he does aoe damage and slows. Rappel does 0 damage and only falls on 1 target.

Akali MIA Care2 votes

The 2 abilities are similar mechanics wise, but each has their own trade offs for range/damage/etc

I can still see a difference between the two though in that when elise rappels you can't see her or know exactly where she'll fall, although it's usually pretty easy to tell. With fizz you can see him while he does it but not with elise. sure fizz's does damage but it's because it's a shorter range and visible.

trollpole is pretty op, but it's been nerfed too. and he only has 4 abilities :P

CatSith3 votes

Yeah, and he can use it whenever he wants. Elise can only use it on enemy target, there was no valid reason to nerf the range.

Akali MIA Care2 votes

She can only use the gap closing aspect of it on enemy cast, but she can still cast it to dodge spells whenever (granted she's in spider form or it's not on CD)

I feel like the range was more her ability to use it to get through the jungle over the bigger walls, and dragon/baron probably.

The Yetii Rider5 votes

"The underlying problem they were trying to solve with reducing spiderling health was tanking in the jungle"

Um...no? Were you even playing at that point? The reason they nerfed spiderling health was because Elise's spiderlings were tanking skill shots for her.

Qczs5 votes

As an Elise player, I think she's fine, and was fine before this patch. I have a 61% win ratio with her and I'm in my series for gold 3. You just have to learn to play her to her full potential and you will see how easily she can get overpowered if she was buffed. Maybe a very slight buff to her scalings to give her more build options but that's it.

Terchio4 votes

The underlying problem that Riot was trying to solve with reducing spiderling health was to nerf spiderling tanking the jungle. What they should have done instead was keep spiderling health the same, but make them take increased damage from jungle monsters

They did nerf it quite hard, but the spiderlings were next to unkillable back then. After that nerf, they did bring their health back up some, and I'm not particularly sad about where it is. Elise is opportunistic, and if her spiderlings are crushed that quickly, that gank wasn't meant to be anyway.

Because of this misunderstanding, Riot nerfed how far Elise can travel with Rappel. And then they nerfed the cast range of it. The problem with those nerfs is that Rappel only works on enemy targets, making escapes difficult but possible with a skilled Elise player, and gap closing was easier. The top tier junglers right now (Rek'sai, Gragas, Sejuani) have gap closers and dashes that are independent of targeting anything. So why does Rappel have to remain nerfed?

Generally good point, but it's 1/6 of her kit (or less), and she gets invuln out of it. I think Rappel is fair, too.

Top tier junglers have %MAX HP dmg that is reliable to land during ganks. That %max HP damage of those junglers has a cap that is static through the spell ranks against jungle monsters, but Elise doesn't benefit from a static cap. The damage shift to Venomous Bite really doesn't amount to much because of the damage nerf to Neurotoxin, and top tier junglers shove out Elise because of her scaling %missing hp cap against monsters, while they benefit from a static cap

Honestly, another good point, and I'd be on board with it once again if she didn't already have a plus clear.

Top tier junglers and top laners have hard CC duration that does not increase with rank, but Elise has to rank up for it. In addition, these junglers and top laners have damage tied to their hard CC, while Elise doesn't. So double whammy for having to rank up a zero damage hard CC to get more duration out of it

Excellent point. Her CC is tremendously bad for someone as reliant on burst as she is, but she shouldn't be anywhere near the crazy utility freak that Ekko is. I personally think her stun should be changed into a stun-into-slow or a slow-into-stun so that it can extend the CC duration to something that may finish the kill (plus a slow-into-stun can give a window of time for her to transform back into Spider Form). I'm also on board for her CC changing in some greater way. Linear skillshot CC like that tends to be more defensive than offensive, as it's far easier to hit a chasing target, and then suddenly Elise is OP for being untouchable when all we wanted to do was give her a sniping window.

Elise's new healing mechanic is not appreciable, consumes more time to reap considerable benefit, and has removed healing from spiderling attacks only

I really hope Riot's regretting that decision by now...

The only real benefit to Rappel's damage/healing boost is for when she is Rappeling onto a jungle camp in Spider Form, which is already not optimal because she starts out camps by casting Volatile Spiderling and using Neurotoxin on the large monster. Riot is discouraging her best combo order for jungle camps by encouraging starting camps with Rappel

Aside from that, it's bugged (and been bugged for a patch or so) to where Spiderlings don't attack during that exact same duration (though less time). You'd think a playtest would clear up that little problem. But yeah, very sub-optimal buff, especially for a champion who has issues hitting her targets through CC and instant mobility in the first place.

Easy for me to complain about these things. What would I propose to change about her to bring her up to par? -Standardize her Cocoon's stun duration again. I find it's an underwhelming enough point. Not a terrible idea, though. -Restore Rappel's cast-range again, but keep the drop-range limiting factor. I think old range was too much. Maybe a little bigger wouldn't hurt, but the darn thing appeared to nearly be a global at times. -Standardize her monster execution damage cap across all ranks of her Q, and up to par compared to other junglers with the same execution damage. Again, the power is already in her kit to jungle, I don't see that part of her kit needing help. -Put her healing back onto Skittering Frenzy, reduce her base HP regen/growth stat. She does need her sustain back. She already has to build tank, damage, and movement speed in order to be sub-optimal, but if she needs to rely on items for sustain, she can't work with that much dependence. -Put Rappel's damage boost onto Skittering Frenzy, not buffing her spiderlings damage output though. Far more logical location -Increase spiderling health again, but make them take increased damage from jungle monsters. I don't think this one is necessary... I actually like where her spiderling utility lies, and save Ravenous Hydras being all too common, it's really not that easy to kill them.

So yeah. Some good points, but she doesn't need a complete revert from season 3. Season 3 taught us that she has to have sub-par skills to make her viable and healthy, and then whittle away with those skills. That's generally the transform vision, actually, as these champs get two kits in one, and the key is interacting well together. Elise's problem is that she was far too dependent on her Q, and now something needs to shape the rest of her kit into her general game patterns.

yukonl4 votes

Here's the problem with the balancing you're proposing.

Why was Elise nerfed in the first place? Because she was nearly good at everything and sometimes even better at some things than other junglers.

"Bring Elise's gank potential/hard CC capabilities up to par compared to other junglers." "Bring Elise's jungle monster execution/objective security up to par compared to other junglers." "Re-establish some of Elise's former gap closing to then compete with other junglers..."

You're going against the point of the nerfs Riot gave her, to stop being a jack of all trades while also being a master of some. Not all junglers are competent at everything. Junglers make up for their inconsistencies with their strengths.

Elise is either complete shit, or overbearing. There's no in between ground and her kit is the perfect example of broken, being unable to be balanced.

Mandang03 votes

Please don't make Elise another Gragas/Sejuani. That's all I'm getting from a lot of your points - that she's not as good as the 2 best junglers in the game. Well, join the club.

TurtleStacks2 votes

Maybe if we cry like the babies did to have her nerfed they might buff her again. QQ too weak pls change waaahhh.

Auroramancer26 votes

It's almost as though I'm proposing some changes to bring her back up to par instead of simply crying "she's too weak and unviable". I'm actually saying "here's what's wrong, let's fix her". She was my favorite champion to play and she got gutted too hard.

Rew7112 votes

I'm not going to say that Elise doesn't need some help but...

Anivia could use some buffs to her mana costs.

Kassadin is an assassin, who has a lower than Elise win rate.

Thing is, Elise has honestly 6 useable abilities. Kassadin has only 4.

His Q deals up to 170 (+70% AP) while hers deals 180 +8% (+[3% AP]%) damage.

His W may not cost anything and deal 140 (+50% AP) but her other Q can cost nothing and deal 220 +8% (+[3% AP]%). With a another ability that gives bonus AS and a heal. Thank goodness Kassadin heals his mana (for the small % of what's missing).

Kassadin's E may be able to deal damage she can't, but she still has 4 damage abilities that deal a lot of damage, and still has 2 passives in her one passive like Kassadin. Needs less mana.

Not saying a Elise buff isn't needed, but a Kassadin buff better be next. I'd really like for his W to heal for the total mana, rather than what's missing. Or, we should allow his W to just regenerate 10/12/14/16/18% against monsters and minions. I don't like it when I have 1000 mana, and I lose 80 mana. So when I regenerate, I only get 8% back (10 mana) (or 80 mana if heal for total mana). I'd seriously rather 18% (14.4). I don't even think 40% is the fairest thing against an enemy (32 of that 90). Why can't it go up to 50%? When Dr Mundo hits an enemy with his Q, he gains back 50% HP. I just want to know if these can be implemented?

The total mana thing could be abused, but it has a good 14 second cool down.

Zair Umbras5 votes

Kassadin also has balancing issues because his entire kit is based around being this highly mobile Anti-Mage. Problem with that is if he has enough damage to kill a mage, he has enough to kill anything else instantly, which is why he has 2 anti-mage bits in his kit with his Q's shield and his passive. He's the pair to Veigar who is a Mage Murderer. Kass would need to do extra damage based on his opponent's AP to keep his kit in the right shape. His W doing, say, 20% of the enemy's AP on top of what it already does could help solidify him in his role as an Anti-Mage.

Rew7111 votes

That would be fantastic, but I'd rather that on his E since his E is not able to ever be spammed. It should do more than just some damage + slow. It'd be nice if it also dealt 6/7/8/9/10% of enemies current AP as damage. So, if the enemy has 1000 AP, I'd deal 60/70/80/90/100 bonus damage to the 80/105/130/155/180 for a total possible of 140/175/210/245/280 (+70% AP). This will not work on AD champs, just dealing normal damage.

Zair Umbras2 votes

If it's going to be on his E, then he'd need a much bigger ratio than 10%. Most champions outside of Veigar and Cass take a FULL build with the NEW items to get 1k AP. You'd need closer to 30% for it to be noticeable at any point of the game. Mid game, a mage usually has 1.5kish health and 400 AP. You'd be doing 180+70% AP and about 120 extra damage, totaling 300+70% AP. Say you have 400 as well, that would mean you have 580 base damage. Comparatively, 400 AP on, say, Morde's E who has the same CD on it, but a slightly smaller width and no slow, but about the same concept there, does 250+60% AP, doing 490 base, mainly because it base is 70 higher.

I should probably also note that while his E has the stack requirement, it does have a 6s CD and in a team fight, you usually have the stacks before you have the ability ready to be casted because of the CD.

Overall! His 9s CD E would be best suited since it's the longest CD and is used last in his combo, more of a finisher ability as well as to gain mana back after using your combo. It would be best also because you're stabbing a netherblade into a mage. It goes in and 'siphons' their power so to speak. Conceptually, it would be awesome and him having an actual anti-mage ability rather than just being a Tank.

I should also note, both of the other anti-AP champions have Damage associated with their anti-mage and one of them is considered to be a TANK. Galio specifically, who builds MR and gets damage out of it. He's a Primary Tank, Mage second. Kass is an Assassin first, second Mage... yet he gets two parts of his kit to tank another mage's damage with no clear distinction in his kit to make him more of a Mage Killer. His kit more says 'I'm an ADC killer because I can ignore the mage'.

Joe Dredd6 votes

Mana buffs on anivia? You act like she's not really good already, there's no need to buff her.

SoMNia2 votes

Q is really bad in the jungle anyway, even if you level it. The damage cap is pathetic. Rappel is now much better. But Rappel is really bad against moving targets. It needs to be fixed.

diamondlight2 votes

I think Rappel needs the "Akali-effect", where you Rappel onto the FAR-SIDE of the enemy, I mean seriously, if you are gonna drop down on a target, why would you drop down to the side they can walk away from you from??

I like the new Akali effect, and I think Rappel would be more powerful if you were on the other side, you get more AA's/Spells/etc. In fact it might be huge for her if Rappel worked like that.

SoMNia2 votes

It already has that effect. The problem is that you land on the far side of where they were when you cast it, not where they are when you come down. If they keep walking, they're 300 units away when you land. You still have to use Venomous Bite AFTER Rappel to close the gap and be able to attack, even though you just used a gap closer, because Rappel is garbage. Also, between transformation time and Rappel's long animation, Cocoon's stun is often worn off by the time you get there, which is pretty stupid.

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