The tank "buffs" are weaksauce and you're not nerfing damage enough

Khristophoros·Aug 6, 2018·79 votes·16,659 views

The tank changes as presented range from benignly useless (eg. Amumu, Sion) to actual nerfs (eg. Nautilus, Leona)

The only changes we're seeing towards actually nerfing burst damage in general is nerfs to Electrocute and a few other runes.

It's like burst in general is going down by like 1% and the amount of tanks picked in games might go up by 1%.

The game will still be just as frustrating because champs with easy gap closers and easy, reliable burst will still be picked in most games.

IDK I just don't see any actual effort to fix the problem. It's like Riot is just trying to give concessions and hope that people pick different champions instead of actually fixing anything.

163 Comments

R35URR3C710NAug 6, 201812 votes

I'll take slow and steady change in the right direction over Riot swinging a hammer. That's how we ended up with this season in the first place, after all. Let's continue to give active, constructive feedback, and hopefully we'll be where we need to be soon.

RocketRelmAug 6, 20186 votes

The major thing will be if riot actually got the message that "maybe damage is too high", now that pro players are saying it en masse, or if this is a one-off thing to try to shut people up before reverting right back to damage creep in every new patch again.

LakegaAug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I'll take slow and steady change in the right direction over Riot swinging a hammer. That's how we ended up with this season in the first place, after all. Let's continue to give active, constructive feedback, and hopefully we'll be where we need to be soon.

I like the dream world you live in. It must be nice to live in fantasy land... I'm still waiting to be where we need to be soon from 4 years ago...

Fízz v2Aug 6, 201810 votes

electrocute 20-40 damage less and lower scaling + nerfs to other damage runes

"It's like burst in general is going down by like 1%" lel

wildfox99Aug 6, 201821 votes

people will complain untill assassins won't be able to kill a squishy with 0 defensive items with his full rotation + ignite

that because it feels bad getting killed by most of the assassins,often you feel like there is nothing you could do (and fizz is exactly the case for example),but looks like people already forgot how ADCs were in the ADC meta or tanks in the tank meta,1000 times worse

SaiannaAug 6, 201840 votes

tank meta was fine.

FridgeDAug 6, 20184 votes

no its wasnt. atleast for people, who wanted to play a none tank melee. its just a stupid tale, tank players and their best friends (adcs) are telling to get fighters and assassines nerfed. liar.

VermillionWolfAug 6, 201817 votes

Pretty sure the board is dominated by mage and adc mains. Nobody plays tanks, or toplane for that matter.

LordGeovanniAug 6, 20182 votes

5% vocal and consistent top lane mains. 15% if jungle mains another 5-8% supports who are also mage mains. As the 3 lanes that tanks. Tanks dont really have mains maybe less than 2 % over these 3 roles... active on the boards.

MelledoneusAug 7, 20186 votes

I mean, seeing how Riot treats them, would you?

SaiannaAug 6, 201813 votes

When tank meta was there you seen heavy bruisers, teamfight lastes actually longer than few seconds. The amount of champs you could have picked was quite alot bigger. So although it wasn't perfect it was fine.

Spank the FoxAug 6, 20182 votes

Imagine being this delusional

Even yesterday, 600 armor Malphite just dives me playing ADC with fully upgraded LW and 100-0s me even with my teammates around me.

Tank meta is nothing but low skill cancer where you just wade through enemies teams doing 0 damage to you.

SaiannaAug 7, 20181 votes

if you couldn't thrive in low-skill tank meta, then how the fuck do you even play when the skill actually is required in "everything bursts you" meta?

I'm sorry but that is just stupid. By the way, if you build ADC while realizing you die like a minion to enemy tank, that focuses defenses, rather than damage, then maybe it's about time to face the facts and just give up playing important roles, if you can't even be flexible enough to adapt to the situation, by for-just-a-simple-example buying defense items for ADC to boost your survivability?

I'm REALLY tired of idiots (sorry for being so obvious with this) that prefer to bitch and moan about everything killing X class to fast (X usually ends up being ADC), rather to actually use THE STRONGEST PART OF THE GAME which is BUYING DIFFERENT ITEMS FROM THE SHOP TO ADAPT TO EACH MATCH. If you keep on dying and don't even bother changing your playstyle then you deserve perm. bronze 5.

Spank the FoxAug 8, 20181 votes

Addressed literally nothing I said. EUNE post.

SaiannaAug 8, 20181 votes

Even yesterday, 600 armor Malphite just dives me playing ADC with fully upgraded LW and 100-0s me even with my teammates around me.

you got manhandled like total noob. Instead of changing your build to adapt you prefer to talk shit about how tanks are busted. Well, I bet your 30MR ADC definitely had a chance vs full combo from malphite.

By the way, so why did you mention you got LW even though it has nothing to do in this case? Oh to make tanks look even more broken igetit igetit.

EUNE post.

Nice try, but your cheap inting failed ;)

Spank the FoxAug 8, 20181 votes

So if I didn’t get LDR, you could shit talk about how I let a 600+ armor Malphite body me. Okay.

Let’s be honest, you just want to play armchair analyst so you can feel good about tanks.

Malphite can go full defense and kill me within one to one and a half rotations, but I can’t go full damage and me and my team can’t even dent him before he uses his 1200 range win button? Okay. I like how this is one-way logic you’re putting down.

Also, what MR options does an ADC have left? Riot gutted ADC items to be locked behind several items before you actually can make a mark, and took away a lot of defensive choices. I’ll tell you from experience that Hexdrinker/Maw does nothing to stop Malphite comboing you (I’ve done this in previous games), and a lot of ADC MR options have been AP-ified (Banshee’s losing crucial HP, Abyssal Mask lul) meaning my only choice is literally 55MR Spirit Visage.

So to win vs Malphite I’m told I need to “learn to position” while having 550-650 range autos to his 1200 range ult, adapt my build even though I have 40% armor pen on LDR, BotkR to help negate the damage and the attack speed drop on Thornmail, but all he has to do is stack hard armor and I can just auto lose the game. Now build “defense” even though an ADC can only afford one defensive item in a game or be irrelevant, so either GA or one of your fairytale MR items that’s supposed to help vs...what?

Smart 👍

SaiannaAug 9, 20181 votes

I don't really want to talk with you, mate.

Listen. If you fail in a game, which allows you to build however you like and adapt to each of your needs and you also have tools outside items to help you win (like flash/barrier or what-not), then maybe it's time to admit it's not malphite, armor, tanks, your team or supports fault, but actually it's just you.

I've fed like crazy myself sometimes. I've also got blown by malphite full combo in tank meta. You know what I did? I started baiting malphite with my flash ready. I've bought myself 250MR~ as a TEEMO just to make sure he won't kill me. And it all worked.

You on the other hand... are simple noob.

Considering you are ADC main obviously I hadn't expected even lil bit less of stupid from you, so it's fine ;)

Spank the FoxAug 10, 20181 votes

Yeah okay, silver lmao

RavenMagusAug 7, 20183 votes

I'm not sure what tank meta we're talking about but I'm currently reliving horrible memories of Zac jumping at me from three screens away, killing me in 5 seconds, and keeping me stunned/slowed the entire time until then - all while having triple my HP and defenses.

SensanatyAug 7, 20182 votes

Sure do love a Zac jumping on me from the other side of the universe and then slowing me, pulling me, and bouncing me into his entire team while Tristana or Caitlyn right-click me to death!

The only people who liked the tank meta were tank mains.

KoertyAug 6, 201849 votes

{quoted}

people will complain untill assassins won't be able to kill a squishy with 0 defensive items with his full rotation + ignite

that because it feels bad getting killed by most of the assassins,often you feel like there is nothing you could do (and fizz is exactly the case for example),but looks like people already forgot how ADCs were in the ADC meta or tanks in the tank meta,1000 times worse

Invest 2900 golds into a Zhonya to counter a Zed, then stay about 3 screens away from him until your Zhonya's active is up.

Does it really sound fair to you ?

Crescent DuskAug 6, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Invest 2900 golds into a Zhonya to counter a Zed, then stay about 3 screens away from him until your Zhonya's active is up.

Does it really sound fair to you ?

2900 gold Zhonyas does nothing because he WEQ's you for half your health, you Zhonya his ult, he just sets shop with his 1-2 shadows and waits till Zhonya wears off and hits you with 2-3 Q's and another E+auto and you are dead anyways.

I don't think people understand that Zed's damage and AD scalings are so retarded right now that he doesn't even need his ult to assassinate targets.

KETSU0Aug 6, 20182 votes

where is your team?

Crescent DuskAug 6, 20186 votes

{quoted}

where is your team?

Q's and E's pierce through targets so what is this comment supposed to say? Zed will swap shadows the moment the team collapses on him anyways and the Q's are ranged.

If it takes 4 other people just to give you a chance to survive against the Zed, where the hell is the rest of Zed's team and what are they able to do when all the attention is turned on Zed?

FridgeDAug 6, 20187 votes

pick an easytokill champ and get bullied in lane. thats how it works with assassines. your champ has its own strenghts. the main issue isnt "too much dmg", its riot overbuffed zed, talon and fizz like crazy without giving players actual compensation for the removal of defense runes. elec. is maybe too strong, but losing 9 armor vs ad champ hurts waaaay more.

VermillionWolfAug 6, 201815 votes

THATS THE ISSUE. YOU CANT BULLY A ZED. He just plays safe and farms with Q (similar to Mundo) till he hits 6, then your dead. You can take stopwatch, doesnt gaurentee you wont die, even after that, its a one time use. Ive been oneshot by a Zed as Darius. The issue is Ignite + electrocute + duskblade, you dont have to hit anything.

Ive said this before, if I ever meet a Zed player that hits me with 3 shurikens and kills me, I will accept it, two shurikens, okay. But hitting nothing and killing anything is stupid no matter how you look at it.

honzakiecAug 6, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Invest 2900 golds into a Zhonya to counter a Zed, then stay about 3 screens away from him until your Zhonya's active is up.

Does it really sound fair to you ?

If you are one of the players who plays with fully zoomed screen, yes it sounds.

Zero Skill TankAug 6, 20189 votes

Nonsense. ADCs or Tanks work mostly by cooperating with their teammates, and similarly you can cooperate with your teammates to deal with enemy ADCs or Tanks. Meanwhile Assassins play mostly solo and options for cooperating with teammates are very limited too, simply because they can usually throw full rotation in a time shorter than most champions single cast time.

AhrisAug 6, 20183 votes

Not when adc and tanks are strong. Adcs can 1v5 before the adc changes.

Crescent DuskAug 6, 20188 votes

{quoted}

Not when adc and tanks are strong. Adcs can 1v5 before the adc changes.

They can 1v5 once they hit their power spikes after being weak as hell for the first half of the game.

I'd much rather be 1v5'd by a squishy, immobile ranged ADC than having to cope with the Zeds, Zoes, and Le Blancs of this world who can 3 shot you from miles away and don't need to be babysat to do their job.

A fed Draven still dies to a Zed who's behind or even in his lane, it's that simple.

My Waifu VanillaAug 7, 20183 votes

No he doesn't. A fed Draven IS going to have a Bloodthirster and will use his E the second Zed pops out of his ulti and then proceed to kill him in 2-3 autos because of Stormrazor.

Crescent DuskAug 7, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Waifu Vanilla,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZiNBHvdG,comment-id=000000000003000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-07T01:41:30.415+0000)

No he doesn't. A fed Draven IS going to have a Bloodthirster and will use his E the second Zed pops out of his ulti and then proceed to kill him in 2-3 autos because of Stormrazor.

lol a Zed won't let him autoattack him for 2-3 autos when EQ takes less time than that and he can simply shadow out of retaliation range and let ignite+ mark do the rest of the work.

LTK KoRoAug 7, 20182 votes

Bloodthirster Draven wont die with only eq+ignite+mark lol, you're so biased against assassins, it's really sad

Spicy RiceAug 6, 201812 votes

Late game, getting one shot by an assassins rotation is ok.

What's not ok is getting killed by a rotation at level 6 when they haven't bought a full item.

AhrisAug 6, 20184 votes

If they execute perfectly, then why not?

Crescent DuskAug 6, 201810 votes

{quoted}

If they execute perfectly, then why not?

Because executing perfectly should involve using an ult. If a mage can't kill you with a single rotation outside busted ass Zoe and Le Blanc, why should an assassin (and being real here, Zoe and Le Blanc function more like assassins than mages to begin with)?

A syndra in Lane can land all her skills which are supremely harder to coordinate and still not execute me without ult while being far squishier and defenseless than a Zed.

wildfox99Aug 7, 20181 votes

both zoe and le blanc won't oneshot you without their ult (they problem is that they have a basic ability CD)

a better example would be Talon or Fizz

A syndra in Lane can land all her skills which are supremely harder to coordinate and still not execute me without ult while being far squishier and defenseless than a Zed.

first off once you learn her combos they are not so hard to use (still hard but nothing insane),also syndra hard scales in lategame while zed falls off like a brick (currently he doesn't because of all the damage we have on the runes,but soon he will),zed doesn't have a big AoE damage and CCs,syndra's Q CD is way lower than zed Q,also zed doesn't have all this range

if you want to assassinate someone pick an assassin,if you want AoE nukes and utilities pick a mage,i know assassins are too strong atm but stop comparing assassins and mages,they are supposed to do 2 different things

Crescent DuskAug 7, 20181 votes

{quoted}

both zoe and le blanc won't oneshot you without their ult (they problem is that they have a basic ability CD)

a better example would be or

first off once you learn her combos they are not so hard to use (still hard but nothing insane),also syndra hard scales in lategame while zed falls off like a brick (currently he doesn't because of all the damage we have on the runes,but soon he will),zed doesn't have a big AoE damage and CCs,syndra's Q CD is way lower than zed Q,also zed doesn't have all this range

if you want to assassinate someone pick an assassin,if you want AoE nukes and utilities pick a mage,i know assassins are too strong atm but stop comparing assassins and mages,they are supposed to do 2 different things

Le Blanc late game can legit delete people with just 2 skill uses. Zoe as well.

Talon even at lv2 needs ignite and electrocute proc to kill you, and his is the largest lv2 spike in the game. A W+Q passive proc alone won't one shot either.

Fizz's one shot only happens when landing the ult, so no I consider Zoe and Le Blanc far more toxic than Fizz because Fizz's laning is easily abusable and Fizz like most assassins that are not Zed heavily suffers in teamfights from competent frontlines and CC supports like Rakan/Alistair/Pyke.

wildfox99Aug 8, 20181 votes

Le Blanc late game can legit delete people with just 2 skill uses. Zoe as well.

any burst mage or AD caster can do that in lategame if you didn't get any defense,some of them takes even less risk than them

their problem is their early game,zoe it's just too strong while le blanc needs to get fed or else enemy mid will outscale her (in any case she's still an assasin,if you don't respect her she will kill you and it's all your fault)

atm they don't fall off so hard because of all the damage that runes give them,but after the next patch nerf if you don't let a le blanc win her lane she will still be able to kill you,but you wil oneshot her faster

Talon even at lv2 needs ignite and electrocute proc to kill you, and his is the largest lv2 spike in the game. A W+Q passive proc alone won't one shot either.

it's hard NOT to have electrocute and ignite up at lvl 2

Fizz's one shot only happens when landing the ult, so no I consider Zoe and Le Blanc far more toxic than Fizz because Fizz's laning is easily abusable and Fizz like most assassins that are not Zed heavily suffers in teamfights from competent frontlines and CC supports like Rakan/Alistair/Pyke.

fizz after his first item needs a base rotation for killing someone without MR,he can only be stopped in teamfight where the support will shield you and your team will CC him

but let's not pretend that zoe's E can't be blocked like fizz ult (or that your tank/support can't block her Q when you are CC'd),as much as i hate her at least she's fair in teamfight,same for le blanc in a 1vs1 being near it's a death sentence but if she gets a bad timing in teamfight she gets chain CC'd or forced to disengage (anyway being useless),also if le blanc is not fed you can easily oneshot her in mid-dash (but on this one i agree her kit is unhealty)

Crescent DuskAug 8, 20181 votes

{quoted}

any burst mage or AD caster can do that in lategame if you didn't get any defense,some of them takes even less risk than them

their problem is their early game,zoe it's just too strong while le blanc needs to get fed or else enemy mid will outscale her (in any case she's still an assasin,if you don't respect her she will kill you and it's all your fault)

atm they don't fall off so hard because of all the damage that runes give them,but after the next patch nerf if you don't let a le blanc win her lane she will still be able to kill you,but you wil oneshot her faster

it's hard NOT to have electrocute and ignite up at lvl 2

fizz after his first item needs a base rotation for killing someone without MR,he can only be stopped in teamfight where the support will shield you and your team will CC him

but let's not pretend that zoe's E can't be blocked like fizz ult (or that your tank/support can't block her Q when you are CC'd),as much as i hate her at least she's fair in teamfight,same for le blanc in a 1vs1 being near it's a death sentence but if she gets a bad timing in teamfight she gets chain CC'd or forced to disengage (anyway being useless),also if le blanc is not fed you can easily oneshot her in mid-dash (but on this one i agree her kit is unhealty)

I'll agree and grant you the points, but my gripe with Zoe, Zed and Le Blanc is that unlike Talon, Fizz, or Katarina, they can keep poking (and failing that poke) with far less risk and consequences for failure than if I go in as Talon and fail to kill a target because that target got shielded or Zilean/Lulu ulted, or Rakan/Alistair locked me down with CC.

Ekko walks the edge compared to Fizz and Katarina but at least in order to do damage he DOES need to walk and stay in for enough time to be retaliated against to force his ult. I can feel the real punishment for being super liberal with my ability usage as Talon, Katarina, Fizz or Ekko.

With Zed, Zoe, and Le Blanc, these champs get too much free poke that doesn't punish the failure to poke because the sleepy bubble and Q are available so often and can be used from range, and Zed's shadow only starts at long CD (still always up for every single new wave of minions, though) while the rest of his skills for some ridiculous reason have such low cd's (his shuriken is actually lower CD than Talon's rake by 3 seconds already, and it has supremely better AD scaling; I won't even compare it to Ekko's Timewinder which is even weaker to Talon's Rake).

I can play like a total bitch on all these three champs and still get plenty of pressure and free damage through, but if I'm on Ekko and E into a Lux or Ahri at the wrong time I'm gonna have a really bad time, and the same goes for Katarina/Fizz, in a way that with the other champs I have far less frequent instances of being exposed to lethal retaliation.

LakegaAug 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZiNBHvdG,comment-id=000000000004000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-08T04:53:37.623+0000)

I'll agree and grant you the points, but my gripe with Zoe, Zed and Le Blanc is that unlike Talon, Fizz, or Katarina, they can keep poking (and failing that poke) with far less risk and consequences for failure than if I go in as Talon and fail to kill a target because that target got shielded or Zilean/Lulu ulted, or Rakan/Alistair locked me down with CC.

Ekko walks the edge compared to Fizz and Katarina but at least in order to do damage he DOES need to walk and stay in for enough time to be retaliated against to force his ult. I can feel the real punishment for being super liberal with my ability usage as Talon, Katarina, Fizz or Ekko.

With Zed, Zoe, and Le Blanc, these champs get too much free poke that doesn't punish the failure to poke because the sleepy bubble and Q are available so often and can be used from range, and Zed's shadow only starts at long CD (still always up for every single new wave of minions, though) while the rest of his skills for some ridiculous reason have such low cd's (his shuriken is actually lower CD than Talon's rake by 3 seconds already, and it has supremely better AD scaling; I won't even compare it to Ekko's Timewinder which is even weaker to Talon's Rake).

I can play like a total bitch on all these three champs and still get plenty of pressure and free damage through, but if I'm on Ekko and E into a Lux or Ahri at the wrong time I'm gonna have a really bad time, and the same goes for Katarina/Fizz, in a way that with the other champs I have far less frequent instances of being exposed to lethal retaliation.

Pretty much why I always say these champs take zero skill, becuaes they don't... Even if you royally screw up, you get so much free farm, and poke damage despite bieng behind that you can EASILY get back in...

Zeds and Leblancs ability to blink into the middle of a fight and face roll the keyboard to blow up someone and get out with literally no threat of getting caught out is disgusting, and requires zero skill again...

Idk why people say these champs take skill...

wildfox99Aug 7, 20181 votes

it's what people fail to realize

most assassins can't poke like mages do (also many of them lacks range) so they have to have some kill pressure or else they would get shit on,the few that have both things are feast or famine champions supposed to snowball in early game or being useless ( Zed Leblanc )

also i'm not complaining about those damage nerfs,even though they are big nerfs they were deserved but people STILL complain about assassins pretending it's not enough,and i just explained why,people just hate getting assassinated and will always complain about it it doesn't matter if the class is balanced or not

LTK KoRoAug 7, 20182 votes

Also people fail to realize:

Assassins have only burst and mobility as their speciality. If they wouldn't be able to duel mages or adcs, then what the hell they should be supposed to do? Boards really do think that mages should be stronger than assassins both in and outside laning?

wildfox99Aug 7, 20182 votes

kinda,people don't like to get owned in 1vs1 because they want to show their "skills"

the average of things i usually hear : "why as xerath if i let jump [insert any assassin here] on me i have to get oneshoted? it's unfair"

no it's not,in this case you bring more utility and AoE damage than me as assassin,you zone me for 90% of the time making my laning phase a dodge minigame while you stay 3 times my range away,if i'm able to engage you once and going through any item 3102 / item 3157 + summoner 21 i fking deserve to kill you

Daddy AntsAug 6, 201815 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZiNBHvdG,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-08-06T11:33:09.409+0000)

electrocute 20-40 damage less and lower scaling + nerfs to other damage runes

"It's like burst in general is going down by like 1%" lel

You also forget the cooldown has been cut by 50%.

AhrisAug 6, 20182 votes

Cd buff doesnt matter since you use electrocrute for the burst. Might as well get like Aery or comet if you are talking abiut cd.

Crescent DuskAug 6, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Cd buff doesnt matter since you use electrocrute for the burst. Might as well get like Aery or comet if you are talking abiut cd.

It's actually stronger for Zed since he can push people out of lane more often with WEQ pokes.

Salvor HardınAug 6, 20187 votes

The buff to the tanks are OK.

https://i.imgur.com/xH7SRUQ.png?nodirect

RammBorghiniAug 6, 20184 votes

as long they nerf burst /true dmg/pen , no one wants to c the adc/mage dies before the assassin completes his combo, and no wants to feel squishy when playing a tank