Riot: We’ll be doing some work on defensive items Mid-Season,

Ralanr·Jan 18, 2017·16 votes·1,370 views

http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/01/dev-on-state-of-the-game-january-2017/

VANGUARD UPDATE HYPE?!

48 Comments

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20179 votes

inbefore they reduce defensive item cost across the board and shave armor and health off those items to justify those "buffs"

{quoted}

Wait, five mastery trees?

I must have glossed over that.

now THAT im interested in.

RalanrJan 18, 20172 votes

Let's just try and stay positive.

Or not he passive aggressive and make clear and concise posts detailing our worries on the subject.

Let's not do what others did and demand Riot not go through with this update happening

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 201711 votes

{quoted}

Let's just try and stay positive.

Or not he passive aggressive and make clear and concise posts detailing our worries on the subject.

Let's not do what others did and demand Riot not go through with this update happening

its a little bit hard to stay positive when that has been their approach to defensive itemization for the past 5 years.

RalanrJan 18, 20173 votes

Well yeah, but this is their chance to outright change how defensive itemization works in general. They could finally fix the problem of things like "tank Ekko" ever appearing!

Critmaster GarenJan 18, 20178 votes

{quoted}

Well yeah, but this is their chance to outright change how defensive itemization works in general. They could finally fix the problem of things like "tank Ekko" ever appearing!

one can hope.

the fact that theyre panning to make 5 mastery trees might also mean theyre adding more distinc tank and fighter focused trees to the game. it also looks like theyre separating the support and assassin tree, considering theyve mentioned masteries with more direct feedback, like playing around vision.

SpoofghoulJan 19, 20171 votes

That sounds interesting, and something ive been asking for ever since the mastery tree rework

im hyped now

EndlessSorcererJan 18, 20178 votes

After seeing how the assassin update turned out, I will admit to being a tad worried.

RalanrJan 18, 20172 votes

I am as well. But I also like new mechanics and additions so I'm excited all the same.

LostFr0stJan 18, 20176 votes

More Shyv-sized updates! maybe 5 mastery trees! And rune update! so much stuff.... so excited... must contain....

RalanrJan 18, 20174 votes

Wait, five mastery trees?

I must have glossed over that.

LostFr0stJan 18, 20172 votes

It's in the runes and mastery section.^^ What could they be~~~~

EndlessSorcererJan 18, 20176 votes

Based on the current mastery system, I would have to guess:

(Burst) Damage+Utility
(Sustained) Damage+Sustain
Damage+Utility
Damage+Mobility
Damage+Defense

LostFr0stJan 18, 20171 votes

That's a whole lot of... damage... don't you think? O.O So, which one would the current outliers (like Zilean or say current Galio) take? I wouldn't want the new trees to be like the old ones, where some champs have bad synergy with every single tree while others are crazy strong synergy for it (Jhin and DFT).

EndlessSorcererJan 18, 20178 votes

We currently have two offensive trees and one utility/defensive tree (of which, one of the keystones is damage-oriented) and have for over a year now.

While I'm hoping the gratuitous amounts of damage amplification in masteries will be fixed, I'm not very optimistic at the moment.

LostFr0stJan 18, 20171 votes

hmmm... that makes sense I guess... RIP hopes and dreams.

RocketRelmJan 19, 20171 votes

TBH, I'll wait to see if I still hear this 6 months later.

Because during the MYMU most mages universally hated the changes, and nowadays all I hear is MYMU made mages IMBA".

Big LincolnJan 18, 20177 votes

anything less than a shift to late game power is the wrong move

RalanrJan 18, 20176 votes

Have a way to allow tanks to get that late game power without falling massively behind due to the lack of tools for dueling or expectations to getting kills?

Big LincolnJan 18, 20173 votes

most top lane and jungle tanks can duel just fine for most of the game.

can't forget about support tanks though, 'discount' items that aren't as good for raw stats but let them survive mid game are definitely a necessity.

late game shift would solve a lot of problems all at once regarding tanks and bruisers

also nerf pen items

ErockandrollJan 18, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZWsOE66w,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-18T19:38:44.704+0000)

most top lane and jungle tanks can duel just fine for most of the game.

can't forget about support tanks though, 'discount' items that aren't as good for raw stats but let them survive mid game are definitely a necessity.

late game shift would solve a lot of problems all at once regarding tanks and bruisers

also nerf pen items

The biggest potential issue I could possibly see hitting tanks currently, is fighters, (or skirmisher/Assassins) Building all that defensive itemization, a filling the tanks role better. Meaning that such an update should do better to cement the Tanks role, and offer items that benefit them when the perform that role.

Support tanks would be a little tricky, because the support role would include both Wardens, (Heal, soak, protect) and Vanguards (Stun, lockdown, engage) and also includes a few pick supports who don't exactly fall into either role. (Thresh comes to mind) Riot did help Warden's a little bit with Knights vow, though some follow up, or an additional option might be useful. Itemizing for the Vanguard support would be even trickier. Because Vanguards tend to be more greedy when building defenses, (which is partially why we see more Vanguards top or Jungle) though specific Vanguards who are only played as supports (probably only includes Leona) can be looked at. And over all, they are going to get help when Riot does their run threw on the supports in general.

I'm not sure if boosting a Tanks late game power is going to increase game length. (Which really isn't Riots goal) And that's mainly because Tanks by definition of their role, are going to be good at forcing a fight. Though I imagine a good place to start Might be improving the HP scaling on Cinderhulk. That originally got nerfed because Riot didn't want it to compete with the late game power of Devourer, but that doesn't apply anymore since Devourer got replaced with bloodrazor.

As for pen items, I'm not sure if you mean Lethality, (Really doesn't affect tanks that much though) the shred from BC, (Juggernaut itemization) or the LW line. (ADC itemization) The biggest concern with BC is that it shreds Armor rather than ignore it, Meaning it increases physical damage from all sources, while reducing any Armor scaling. That in mind, the LW itemization seems alright, given how specialized it is. Since they changed it from total Armor to Bonus Armor, it's not completely mandatory, and an ADC wouldn't by default, build a lot of Anti Tank items.

PermabannedGarenJan 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Have a way to allow tanks to get that late game power without falling massively behind due to the lack of tools for dueling or expectations to getting kills?

You're already the class that has some of the most team fight presence in the game. Why should you have tools for dueling or the ability to easily get kills?

RalanrJan 18, 20174 votes

I'd argue the only one getting easy kills is Poppy.

As for the other part, tanks need some way to not just survive top lane, but actually interact with their opponent. It's not fun when your default strategy is farming under tower.

ForgiveColourJan 18, 20174 votes

Imagine a nice world where armor from item scales with levels

RalanrJan 18, 20175 votes

So basically be at it's strongest in the late game where durability falls off?

AhristocatsJan 18, 20171 votes

and then you can make it not falling off

RalanrJan 18, 20172 votes

Which would enforce a massive tank meta and bring up juggernauts as the supreme late game carries because of how much damage they do on top of their durability, making squishy carries both ranged or melee obsolete as long as you just hold people down for your juggernaut.

AhristocatsJan 19, 20172 votes

What the fuck?

Making tankiness scalling in late game to match offensive would just make the winner of defense vs offense the most skilled person between the two

unless riot fucks up the balance between both

RalanrJan 19, 20171 votes

May you please explain because I don't see it? I don't think Riot can make this game a perfect shield vs a perfect sword.

AhristocatsJan 19, 20172 votes

then it's riot's fault

like i said 7 years and they never managed to fixe tankiness you're having hype for nothing imo

RalanrJan 19, 20171 votes

That doesn't look like a detailed explanation that I know you're capable of.

AhristocatsJan 19, 20171 votes

wait what explination you want to get?

in dota 2 offense doesn't outscale defense, but defense doesn't outscale offense

a carry doesn't auto-kill a tank, but a tank doesn't auto-kill a carry. Both are able to do their job(tanking or killing) if they outplay the other not by stats (like %armor penetration) but by mechanics, what else do you want to get?

In league, tanks don't have any mechanics and neither do ranged adcs except some like jhin's passive. 1v1 between a tank and an adc is decided by the time in the game early/mid game tank wins, late game adc wins, period no discussion.

ForgiveColourJan 18, 20171 votes

tanks "falling off" is like lee sin "falling off" late game LUL

RalanrJan 18, 20175 votes

As a full tank Sion with near 5K health, I died in about 4 seconds to a full build GP that had LDR.

Tanks fall off. Lee falls off but remains relevant because of his utility (as tanks should). The only people they don't fall off against are Squishies.

AhristocatsJan 18, 20171 votes

comming from a tank circlejerk whinner for the first time you have a nice idea

ForgiveColourJan 18, 20171 votes

too bad that will never happen because it requires them to not play like monkey early on

Malicious MetalJan 18, 20174 votes

Damn, more itemization for us Juggernauts to tap into!

RalanrJan 18, 201710 votes

And for Mundo to break!

Fuuuuuuuuuun.

Malicious MetalJan 18, 20179 votes

"Mundo breaks what he pleases" disgusting licking sounds

Seriously though, health items are such a chore to balance since it's the MOST universal stat there is.

SpoofghoulJan 19, 20171 votes

so everyone benefits

id say thats balanced :P

Toru ItaiJan 18, 20174 votes

:X i feel like every time they work on defensive _____. it turns out to be a straight nerf in all but the most niche cases.

AhristocatsJan 18, 20172 votes

7 years and tankiness hasn't been adressed (neither overpowered of underpowered)

i don't think the rework will accomplish anything

so no no hype

PB4UAMEJan 18, 20174 votes

Not even remotely true. Compare old tank items from the first 3 seasons to now, and you'll see how ridiculously everything's been gutted. Warmogs used to offer 1250 health alone, compared to 800 now (that's over 50% higher than the modern version), Frozen Heart had 10% more armor, 25% more mana, and slowed attack speed for 66.67% more, Randuin's used to offer 20% CDR, higher armor, slowed movement speed and attackspeed on active, slowed for more and slowed longer. Force of Nature was the only source of extra movement speed and in fight regen (.35% max hp per second) and also offered 76 MR for a fairly cheap price, and it was entirely removed. Before, Locket we had Runic Bulwark which provided an AoE 30 MR, 15 armor and health regen, on top of giving the buyer 60 MR and a good chunk of armor too; not to mention, we lost every other defensive aura as well.

Oh, and we fucking lost virtually our FUCKING ENTIRE mastery tree, while % increased damage went from 3% at 21 points, to over 20% increased damage without having to go beyond 12 points in a fucking tree, and we lost our damage resistence mastery, reduced AoE, reduced damage tick, %increased health, etc etc.

Yeah, no tankiness has never been addressed, and totally wasn't gutted before the damage creep/ADHD CoD player meta we've seen since early season 6.

AhristocatsJan 19, 20171 votes

THAT'S WHAT I SAID GODDAMNIT

tankiness was overpowered in season 1 and 2 and then after season 3 it started to become garbage

riot was never able to adress the issue

PB4UAMEJan 20, 20171 votes

The issue has been addressed, it hasn't been solved or fixed.

Hexs FortuneJan 18, 20171 votes

How can they buff vanguards without buffing divers who use the same items

RalanrJan 18, 20171 votes

That's probably what they intend to find out. I think currently they could release items with no ad or AP and lower the base damages of divers.

Lock OnJan 19, 20171 votes

LOL Duskblade too weak? Rengar Nocturne Zed ?

How about revert this lethality bs stat back to armor penetration and reduce some of their burst until a bit later into the game to even it out. Hell, why not work toward making AD assassins more viable junglers? Even the concept of assassins sitting around on an open field never made sense to begin with. They're not duelists. Besides, Talon's E-change makes more use this way.