hes been power creeped to shit and playing against an energy champ like zed makes it painfully obvious
as shen i literally cant even use all my abilities in one rotation because his abilities cost so much energy
zed can basically slam his face on the keyboard and never go out of energy and its just really sad that this has happened
SpecterVonBaren19 votesTo be fair though, the cost of his taunt is just ridiculous given how easy it is to whiff it.
Rew7113 votesNot to mention the small amount of damage...
Funny how no one ever played a Shen vs Zed before to test their strengths. I mean, Zed and Shen are rivals and should be evenly matched based on the Lore but in game, Shen can't do anything vs Zed.
Also, Shen's passive never seems to reduce that second when his W is used... Just saying it should be looked at.
soulbanana83 votesShen is a tank? His point isn't that Shen doesn't beat Zed, it's that Shen's costs are atrocious.
Rew7111 votesoh. lol, i just look at it from a power point of view. sorry shen mains. i love shen as a character too. he's fun when played top.
Jamatrix66612 votesYou won the game, went 4/2/20 (Which is really good) and your build was great. I don't know why you are complaining. I mean, your score definitely tells that you were an important part of your team's victory. You did not feed Zed so you are not responsible (if) he got fed. Zed got a lot of wave clear, bigger burst and an excellent escape mechanism so I think it is pretty understandable that you had trouble laning against him.
That being said, it is true that some of Shen's ability costs could use a little reduction. Not a major problem tho considering the fact that his E and R can completely change the tide of a team fight.
On a final note, I think you should not judge a champion's viability after experiencing only one game with him. Team comps always make every game so different and a champion's viability can only be analyzed after lots and lots of game.
Brenticus1212 votesIt's even better that he did well because he's not just venting his frustration. Just because you do well doesn't mean the champion is fine as it is.
Jamatrix6665 votesI did not say Shen could not get some tweaks/buffs. I actually believe "he is not fine as he is", to use your words. It's just that the OP seems to build his opinion on this champion after only one game and that doesn't really make sense. His thread lacks seriousness and elaborated arguments to make a point.
LeeDark4 votesActually, the OP articulates the two problems Shen players have been complaining about for quite some time. Essentially, it all comes down to the unnecessary nerfs to his taunt. It used to be an absolutely game-changing ability, but champions have been released with far more power in their kit than him.
Shen's abilities in general cost too much energy, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in and of itself. Given a mechanic to restore energy quickly, like Lee Sin has, gives players the opportunity to reward effective play with increased energy gains. Shen has this on his taunt, so that landing the taunt allows him to use both of the other abilities in quick succession.
Shen's taunt, however, is extremely difficult to use effectively. It's very short range, which is necessary because it is also a dash. It's a skill shot... but it is also a very narrow skillshot. The nerf to the taunt's width should absolutely be reverted in the current atmosphere, and his costs should be reconsidered, at the very least. Barring that, it would be time to talk about a rework.
LeeDark4 votesYeah, gotta love the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" mentality. Do well on the champ? Obviously the champ is fine, and it has nothing to do with you outplaying your opponents. Do poorly instead? Clearly you got outplayed and are just whining.
Vellich0r1 votesagreed.
Vellich0r1 votesagreed, I can go 10-5-2 as AP shaco (something I often do) but that doesn't make him a viable choice. It's actually more credible when someone complains about a champ after doing well with them, it means they aren't just mad because they don't understand a champion.
Tempered Salute2 votesYep, I do well with Shen in many games but still lose because after mid game if the rest of the team isn't ahead he loses effectiveness. At that point, all I do is not die. Even if I taunt two, the rest of my team gets wiped because it's his ONLY CC and if you're in a situation where you have to be with your team, as it's neck and neck and you can't play defensively, your ult can get shut down, OR you're at a point in the game where the long cd on the ult means it won't be up every other skirmish.
Velasan8 votesI don't know how to play Shen, but I had him for a team mate on two games already where he just destroyed. Reading your post I just wanted to toss in this thread that there are energy runes if you want to try for a build that requires greater energy returns. They are just hardly ever used.
Although on a side note I think what others are pointing out is that maybe Shen vs Zed isn't the best match up (even though they are both ninjas). :)
I would imagine a really tanky Shen would outscale a Zed though (thornmail ftw).
Fed by Snu Snu5 votesSuggesting thornmail against Zed and yet you are upvoted.
This community...
AbodyHUN6663 votesnot strictly against Zed, but because of the taunt and his eat your face off with my point blank throwing katana style he would get lots of focus.
Sire Hippington8 votesu probably haven't played zed, his early energie costs are quite there, and unless he double hits u with his skills he won't be able to do a second rotation as soon as his cds are off.(not saying Zed isn'T facerole mode, especially if laneing vs melees though) However, shens energie problems are real, and a the taunt leaves u with nothing unless u hit multiple people.
Powercreep has not much to do with that(and powercreep isn't really big in lol). Shen was strong, very strong some time ago, till he got nerfed. His problem is the ult, that global TP is just overbearing as soon as shen is strong. Back in the days befor his nerfs shen dominated professional play cause he had a strong lanening and his splitpushing with the ult-threat was incredible hard to deal with. Simply nerfing the rest to shens level, or buffing shen(which would be actually be powercreep) would just lead back to his dominant splitpushing at high elos. He needs a rework of his ult to ever get balanced.
NauticalNonsense5 votesYea but at least Zed can actually accomplish one rotation.
GG Beers4 votesAre you talking about if Shen wiffs his taunt? then yeah it kills his energy.
LeeDark5 votesEven hitting the taunt, if you only land it on one person, leaves you with very little energy available. If you whiff, yeah, you get to do nothing. If you LAND the taunt, though, you should be able to cast both of your other abilities. Currently, you have to hit two people to pull that off, and hitting two people with Shen's narrow taunt depends more on the luck of them being close enough together more than it does your skill in aiming.
Rew7112 votesEverything on Shen has to be close. All the other ninja's (and Lee Sin) shoot their Q's way further. And a Zed W+Q sends it further than any of them. Basically more than 3x what Shen can do.
Shen's nerfs hurt his play style and his credibility as a ninja. Compared to Akili and Kennen. He is pretty weak and not suited to be a leader. Please buff Shen Rito.
Tempered Salute2 votesBUT it also means he is struggles in lane phase vs anyone that can out dps his shield.
Narasimha3 votesYou are literally comparing apples to oranges, a tank to an assassin. Might as well say "Yea but atleast Shen has hard cc, innate sustain, and a global shield/tele."
Junkο6 votesI remember when i used to play Shen, missing E felt so painful because it drained all your energy. Meanwhile Rammus has a point and click taunt that doesn't cost THAT much (not saying that Rammus is OP or anything, just comparing 2 taunts)
Narasimha2 votesI suspect the difference is because for Shen, his taunt also doubles as an escape. Give it too little a cost, and he'd be running everywhere.
Junkο2 votesThat is true, but Shen E already has a really high CD.
Gavran1 votesShen of course, is also capable of (and is failing if not doing so) taunting more than one target at a time. If you aren't getting at least two people in your taunt, you need to hold it for a better moment. (Barring situations where your team will obliterate a poorly positioned enemy because of your CC and such.)
Junkο2 votesThat is true, sadly his hitbox got hit really hard.
Quepha5 votesthey aren't even similar champions... energy is about the only thing they have in common.
although it does seem like the concept for energy is "quickly regenerating resource that allows for many abilities to be used over the course of a fight, but with a small pool so combos are very costly and you generally have to choose which of your abilities to use in each situation" while for every energy champion but shen this has ended up being "this champion is only restricted by cooldowns and they also have a yellow bar under their hp that goes up and down sometimes."
Matezoide5 votesShen is literally the only energy-champion that can legitimately go oom.
Its Just Tosin1 votes3 years later and this is still true.
ploki1224 votesFull rotation with all skills at rank 1 :
Shen : 230
Zed : 165
So indeed, if you whiff every skills you have, Shen costs more.
Let's look further now, wha about energy refunds (which all energy users rely on).
Total refund posible in 1 rotation with all skills at rank 1:
Shen : 10-210 (net cost between 220 and 20, expected cost of 180)
Zed : 0-40 (net cost between 165 and 125, expected cost of 145)
So if you actually land your stuff, both champions bear similar costs. As soon as you land your taunt on more than 1 champion, it costs less early game as Shen for a full rotation.
Obviously, costs change with levels, so let's do the same 2 things with max rank spells.
Full rotation with all skills at level 18 :
Shen : 230
Zed : 125
Total refund posible in 1 rotation with all skills at level 18:
Shen : 30-230 (net cost between 200 and 0, expected cost of 120)
Zed : 0-80 (net cost between 165 and 85, expected cost of 125)
The values don't really change as you level up, actually. In a suboptimal case, both bear similar costs, in a disastreous case, Zed still holds the cup, and in a perfect case, you still null-value as Shen, while Zed still uses like 65% of its energy.
The one criterion I didn't touch on, up until now is time. So let's see how fast they will run out of energy in an abysmal case (nothing lands), ok case (you land you key spells and whiff the rest) and perfect case (all those 5-man taunts are worth a lot).
"Level 1" Shen cost : 23 energy per second.
"Level 1" Shen refund : 1-18 energy per second.
"Level 1" Shen net cost : 22-5 energy per second (expected 19).
"Level 1" Zed cost : 27 energy per second.
"Level 1" Zed refund : 0-3 energy per second.
"Level 1" Zed net cost : 27-24 energy per second (expected 25).
So early in the game, the tables are turned for once. Zed costs more energy across the table since he has very little access to its energy refund mechanics very scarcely.
Level 18 Shen cost : 40 energy per second.
Level 18 Shen refund : 3-27.5 energy per second.
Level 18 Shen net cost : 37-12.5 energy per second (expected 25).
Level 18 Zed cost : 23 energy per second.
Level 18 Zed refund : 0-17 energy per second.
Level 18 Zed net cost : 23-6 energy per second (expected 16).
However, come late game, Zed's energy costs are much less limitating. Hi W being up much more often simply means that his energy isn't all that gated anymore.
N.B. for expected values, I assumed that Shen would land 2 autos between Ki Strikes, one with feint on, one with it off and would land his taunt. Given that he's in lane these numbers seem very conservative. Come late game, I assumed 2 persons taunted and 2 AAs between Ki Strikes.
For Zed, I assumed he'd land all his Shurikens refunds, and miss all his Shadow Slashes refunds. I still assumed he would hit the Shadow Slash on the enemy for the 2s CDR. Come late game, I assumed he'd stil lland all his Shurikens refunds, and that he would still mis all Shadow Slashes refunds. However Iassumed he'd hit 2 persons with his Shadow Slash, and hit 1 more after (for 6s CDR total).
One point I didn't take into account would be CDR itemization which skews toward Zed because the refunds are gated by his Living Shadow uptime and Living Shadow has a flat CDR reduction when you hit Shadow Slash. I don't think it changes the conclusion in any ways however since it mostly come into play late game
In conclusion, until late game arrives, Shen's problem is as limitating as any other energy user. The only point where Zed can truly faceroll is lategame, but at the same time we have to wonder if that has to do with their roles. Zed is a squishy assassin that relies on mobility to survive, so he probably won't be able to just stand in the fray and spam spells. Meanwhile, Shen's job means he will stay alive longer than most, which compensate for the higher cost over time.
TL;DR : Shen got 99 problems but energy costs ain't one.
Earl Eulrich3 votesTL;DR : Shen got 99 problems but energy costs ain't one.
You never actually played him, your expectations are just incredible far away from any realistic scenario.
ploki1224 votesI did play him quite a few times. Let me rephrase it in another way. His early energy problems are comparable to every other energy users'.
Earl Eulrich2 voteshis laningphase is fairly strong, no doubt (mostly because he doesn´t need to taunt except for all-ins or to escape)...unfortunatelly everything else is just a deep hole.
ploki1223 votesWell, even late game as long as you land your tauns, you should have easily enough energy for 2+ taunts in a teamfight, and if you can't win a teamfight with 6s+ of taunt scattered across the enemy team, nothing will make you win it.
Earl Eulrich2 votesWell...a taunt is fairly nice to have, but that´s about all Shen adds to a fight. He just doesn´t posess much threat to anyone during a fight (an ADC with some lifesteal can just keep firing and ignoring Shen hitting him for hours) - except for his very taunt. So he´ll just get ignored. Other tanks add more CC and more DMG over the course of a fight. Shen is really too much a ult-only Champ atm, if you cannot use the ult to snowball early on you won´t influence teamfights enough to make a difference, and you won´t splitpush sucessfully vs anything later on in the game.
Sire Hippington2 votesWhile a appriciate ur math on full energiecosts, u miss some parts. Shens E costs 120, it'S the single most expesive energie-abillity in the game. As a zed, u won't wait long till u have acces to all 3 skills, even if u only can use one u atleast have all the options. With shen, u need to wait like forever till u get ur taunt once u hit ground zero of ur energie-bar.
One of shens weaknesses is indeed energie(which is also one of Zeds only weakness) overall, energie is actually more limited than mana besides longduration laneing.
if it would be wise to buff his energie costs is a different thing though...
Tempered Salute1 votesHe was using a laning situation to express this...basically, he's sying Shen has problems laning and the refund is easy to wiff more than 1 or 2, because it is designed that way. Basically, they have to be in a bottleneck, which LoL doesn't truly have because you cannot place obstacles. Odds are you will only hit 2 in team fight, and well, laning is a chore.
SparrowPriest3 voteshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbr8Rcktsu4 This is because Shen relies on auto attacks to do damage and you built the wrong items. You want high dps with high armor. Zed does burst and dps. Shen does dps and absorbs damage. Dps is damage over time.
Anomander3 votesDPS is Damage Per Second. DOT is Damage Over Time. What you are looking for us Sustained damage.
Earl Eulrich4 votesShen´s dps is outright horrible, and the utility doesn´t really make up for it in this League of Mobility, especailly after the taunt-nerf + tanks arenßt allowed to scale anymore unfortunatelly, they just get blown to bits lategame.
AbodyHUN6662 votesthe problem with shen is that, if he could be as strong duelist as zed he would be the god of splitpushing. They would need to send 2 people at him to stop him, and he would just ult to his team. He was nerfed for his ult.
Ryu the first2 votesZed has high energy costs and only gets energy back if he hits u with his shadow.
DayVGaming2 votesShen actually lanes really well against Irelia, so while he does have a lot of hard matchups I'd be cautious just writing him off entirely.
Earl Eulrich2 votesIrelia has Sustain and Truedmg...there´s literally not a single worse matchup for Shen in this game.
DayVGaming1 votesIf you say so!
Wankeroo2 votesOP - learn to shen. You are doing it wrong. Zed is a joke for a proper Shen. Especially in late game. Zed is a crap champ that is great vs noobs who don't build 1 item to cancel his ult...
I Main Swain2 votesok, while I completely disagree about zed being able to face slam the keyboard with no energy problems, I do agree that shen's e costs too much energy. considering its tiny hit box and long cooldown, its kinda ridiculous. shouldn't cost more than 100 energy at the most imo.
and if theres anyone who I think just face slams the keyboard without much of an energy problem, its kennen
Tempered Salute2 votesEveryone who is saying Shen doesn't have problems...then why does he only have a 4% pick rate with a 45% win rate?
Dar19821 votesShen can and will counter zed and shut him down every match when built and played well. Most zeds will just face roll and expect to win, they wont expect you to wast your taunt to dash out of a skill shot and position better to attack them most times.
