sejuani wasnt trash tier before cinderhulk

brad·Mar 18, 2015·74 votes·2,916 views

so stop acting like she was

and calm the fuck down

21 Comments

Meep ManMar 18, 201520 votes

There was nothing wrong with Sejuani ever, she was always really good. Cinderhulk made her extremely good. These nerfs are actually really small and probably wont impact her too too much.

My Teams GarbageMar 18, 201512 votes

**i dont care if sej is at 60% win rate

i care that 20 junglers were nerfed this season and lee isnt one of them**

JJI744Mar 19, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Teams Garbage,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9eL7I6lZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-03-18T17:46:56.615+0000)

**i dont care if sej is at 60% win rate

i care that 20 junglers were nerfed this season and lee isnt one of them**

Yep, what we really need, is to nerf the 10th WORST winrate in the game.

And don't start with "hard to play so low winrate," he is sub-50% in every league from Bronze to Diamond, and has drastically fallen out of favor competitively. (And has a terrible winrate competitively)

Its seriously time to let go of the old grudges from S3/4 and realize that Lee is not only not worht complaining about, but actually one of the weakest champions right now.

Brenticus12Mar 20, 20151 votes

He's nowhere close to weak rofl.

But yes it is true he's fallen out of favour and isn't spammed as often. He also isn't as strong as he used to be.

JJI744Mar 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He's nowhere close to weak rofl.

But yes it is true he's fallen out of favour and isn't spammed as often. He also isn't as strong as he used to be.

10th lowest winrate in the game. If you don't consider him weak, you must consider Urgot to be god-tier.

(This says nothing about Lee being hella annoying to face, but he is not strong anymore.)

XxxLumberJackxxXMar 18, 20156 votes

She was fine before, cinderhulk just is reallly strong right now on people who scale with HP.

bradMar 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

She was fine before, cinderhulk just is reallly strong right now on people who scale with HP.

the only problem with sejuani was that she could hardly clear the jungle

with cinderhulk, she can actually clear the jungle without dying

Hard4HamstersMar 18, 201514 votes

Her clear was fine before Cinderhulk. She was a sleeper op before Cinderhulk, but it synergizes with her so well that she became popular at all levels of play and became very strong and could work with almost any team comp. People are just pissed that Lee Sin hasn't been touched for a long time, and he is an incredibly safe and strong pick that also works with almost any team comp. His damage falls off late, but he can easily become a very tanky frontline after the early game and still provide a lot of utility to the team. His kit gives him so many tools to be the go-to jungler for Team or Solo Queue. Not hindering him in some way, as they did with Vi and Jarvan (who are still strong picks) goes against there idea of Jungler diversity Riot set out to create at the beginning of the season. Honestly, though. I don't know what they can do to knock Lee Sin off of his throne. Reduce damage or reduce tankiness is what I would think. I think his mobility is what makes him "Lee Sin" so reducing his shield or his built in life steal would give him less durability, while reducing the damage on his abilities will make him less of an early game threat.

As an aside, what is everybody's thoughts on Rek'Sai at the moment, she hasn't been touched for a while but I'm not sure what the consensus is about her utility vs damage vs durability?

WheatloafMar 18, 20155 votes

Rek'Sai is a generalist jungler designed far better than Lee currently is. Avoiding grouping tightly and destroying her tunnels are very effective ways to counter her, and they're obvious enough for all levels of play to understand. Her major issue is that if her stats become too strong, her top lane becomes really oppressive.

Chromatic EagleMar 19, 20151 votes

How is she a generalist?

WheatloafMar 19, 20156 votes

She can clear reasonably quickly, has great map presence (technically her specialty), sustains well, has good engage, has good disengage, ganks well, counterganks well...

She's strong in all of those areas, but the only one she really excels in is map presence, which, in and of itself, is a skill with no real specific purpose. She can use that map pressure for just about anything. As a generalist, she falls pretty hard if she gets behind and loses the ability to engage safely and put up tunnel networks, but she can close out a victory if she gets a lead simply because of how many options she has available. She's healthier than Lee Sin because, even when ahead, she requires constant strategic-level upkeep in order to use her full potential, and there are clear options to counter her other than just "dodge her Q".

KairyaMar 18, 20152 votes

I am playing Seju a lot since a year now. She has always been my go to jungler, if I wanted a safe pick. Personally I think her jungle clear pre Cinderhulk was fine. 4 camps before her first back. Clearspeed was okay too.

She also has been picked up in the LCS a few times before the latest patch, so they must have thought she is good enough too...

shalexadeMar 18, 20156 votes

You say this like a band wagoner.

Sej's clear before 5.5 was perfectly fine. She was very prone to counter jungling though.

Guess what? She's still prone to counter jungling

MadraMar 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hi Im Brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9eL7I6lZ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-18T16:46:29.809+0000)

no

the only problem with sejuani was that she could hardly clear the jungle

with cinderhulk, she can actually clear the jungle without dying

Don't forget the jungle was nerfed alongside cinderhulk release.

SammystormMar 18, 20152 votes

before cinderhulk I could full clear the jungle and leave at half hp or I could clear blue and red and wolves and gank at full hp.

AetherKingdomMar 18, 20156 votes

THANK YOU

VardenSaladMar 18, 20153 votes

My problem with this is not that Sejuani was not good before Cinderhulk (she was very good), it's that there has been a Riot balance reaction to her ascendance to competitive viability before allowing professional players the opportunity to develop counters to her playstyle.

I don't have a problem with nerfs. I have a problem with very, very rapid nerfs without data suggesting that Sej was so un-counterable or so unable to be out-played that nerfs were a necessary 'out-of-options' decision.

Spacesuit SpiffMar 18, 20152 votes

As I recall, before Cinderhulk she was the only tank jungle you could pick without your team raging (I assume she saw play in LCS or something so that's why). Now she's at least as strong as the best junglers, and since people don't always know how to deal with hard engages and cc... yeah...

deadlychuckMar 20, 20151 votes

The only issue sejuani had before cinderhulk was the fact that she was a tank jungler. The fact that all tank junlgers were completely overshadowed by the high mobility assassin/bruiser champions was just a general fact.

After cinderhulk she only became so strong, because she does scale so well with items of it's nature. # nerfs are warranted, but anything else is just overshooting the problem.

Actually, thinking back on it, wasn't the current state of sejuani a compensation buff for when they removed the % health on spirit of the ancient golem? So reverting that change should put her back to about the right spot should it not?

HauntJun 6, 20161 votes

gragas is the real problem lets get on this please lol

[{quoted}](name=hi im brad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=9eL7I6lZ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-18T16:46:29.809+0000)

no

the only problem with sejuani was that she could hardly clear the jungle

with cinderhulk, she can actually clear the jungle without dying

lol downvoted