Gonna be honest: Ahri needs a new W and a new R if this is ever going to end

chipndip1··6 votes·4,070 views

We blamed the whole "MS on Q thing". Addressed it. Balancing Ahri is still insanely hard. She doesn't feel like she accomplishes much because she either does so too safely or doesn't. Removing the Q MS didn't really change that because it becomes the same song and dance after level 6. Honestly, 3 dashes is just super safe no matter how you slice it. They aren't even small Aatrox-style dashes. These are big dashes.

So, Ahri's R needs to change. It's fine for Ahri to have mobility, but a triple threat of it is overkill and makes it impossible to balance out Ahri's risk/reward. Her W needs to change as well. It's...so forgettable and useless...I don't know what this move accomplishes, honestly. Figuring out how to deal with Ahri would be easier if her W actually meant something to the champ somehow. In 2018, we don't have a lot of champs that have moves that are this useless. There was a time where champs came out looking like Vi, where you had your Q, your E, your R, and some shit on W that no one gives a flying shit about. League of today doesn't support that design philosophy as much, and similar to you guys' approach to Zoe and Lux when you tried to either bring them up or pull them back down, Ahri needs her power distributed more evenly throughout her whole kit, from R. This is where the problem comes to a head...cause Q and E are already balanced moves, and W is hardly a move. There's nothing you can do with W to remove power fairly from R so her risk/reward isn't so lop-sided all the time. That's the problem.

41 Comments

Warlord Rhinark6 votes

Isn't Zoe's W just a better Ahri W?

wildfox995 votes

yes,zoe's W passive is a ** buffed ** ahri W

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

yes,zoe's W passive is a ** buffed ** ahri W

That's what I meant.

I just didn't bother saying passive because the fact that she can steal summoner spells with it is part of what makes it better.

wildfox991 votes

well,you asked...i didn't get it was rhetoric (spare me,it was 4am for me XD)

Warlord Rhinark1 votes

{quoted}

well,you asked...i didn't get it was rhetoric (spare me,it was 4am for me XD)

I didn't say it was rhetoric and I didn't try to come off as rude, so apologies for that.

chipndip13 votes

Kinda.

It's literally a better Ahri W, but it's also an Ahri W you can't use for minutes on end, whereas Ahri can use hers every couple of seconds.

WalkingInACircle6 votes

And as an Ahri main, every time she gets picked away from me I play Brand and roast her if she even approaches the minion wave.

Complaining about being unable to kill the champ is playing wrong. Take the objectives/minion and ignore her until she's forced to do something. Then, sidestep.

Also no, the dashes are shorter than flash.

D357R0Y3R5 votes

Fun fact: Jinxylord stated that Ahri's ult when she was being tested was storm spirit's ult from dota2: no cooldown dash that drained mana depending on the distance you dashed (flat amount+%amount for each unit) and dealt damage depending on the distance you dashed

it was removed and replaced by the current ult by Ezreal (the designer)

2Charmnot2Charm1 votes

Sounds broken, but i guess that's fine since everything is broken in Dota.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

it's a meh ult honestly, drains too much mana, the cost is like on cast 40+10% of your mana, and then drains 4+2% of your max mana per 100 unit works in dota because you can itemize 4000 or 5000 mana and you have an item that reduces mana cost of spells

chipndip12 votes

Oh you mean the guy that's made some of the crappiest designs in this game to date? OH BOY!

D357R0Y3R1 votes

? Ezreal's design were fine for most of them

chipndip12 votes

Ezreal: Limits itemization possibilities in the game by just existing.

KogMaw: Biggest ranged stat stick in the game.

Tristana: I love her to bits but she'll never be not annoying with that W.

MasterYi: Biggest melee stat stick in the game.

Vladimir: Literally had the company apologize for this guy.

Ryze: Anyone that worked on any iteration of this guy gets an L, cause they all failed.

Teemo: Actually designed this little shit.

I'd add Malzahar but there's some necessity for reliable cc, so that's not THAT bad, but his un-interactive ass lane is still a pain point. Also, it's not necessarily how many bad designs he made, but it's their impact. His bad designs impact the game to its very foundation.

D357R0Y3R1 votes

I don't fucking know if you're aware but all of this champions were totally fine and replied to all the conditions of game design that zileas introduced, it's not his fault if the game evolved and riot's philosophy evolved zileas said: no aura, no power without gameplay, no burden of knowledge and ezreal listened to that unlike some other designers that designed OG taric for instance or Sona

As for Vladimir what really broke him with spellvamp, and instead of totally reworking his kit they ended up removing spellvamp because he was the only one building it and was obnoxious with it.

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

I don't fucking know if you're aware but all of this champions were totally fine and replied to all the conditions of game design that zileas introduced, it's not his fault if the game evolved and riot's philosophy evolved

Ezreal has repeatedly broken items ever since I even got here. Kog makes it impossible to expand on on-hit items since he'll break those. Vlad was a massive stat stick before and only marginally passable after his rework. Trist is either way too much or not nearly enough in nearly any meta. Yi is that but significantly more drastic. Ryze is never done right. Wtf is Teemo supposed to be in this game?

zileas said: no aura, no power without gameplay, no burden of knowledge

Well, they at least do THAT much, but the ways they tax the game despite that still make their negative influence way worse than most champions I can think of.

and ezreal listened to that unlike some other designers that designed OG taric for instance or Sona

Aight, fair, fair.

As for Vladimir what really broke him with spellvamp, and instead of totally reworking his kit they ended up removing spellvamp because he was the only one building it and was obnoxious with it.

They still reworked his kit, though...

D357R0Y3R1 votes

{quoted}

Ezreal has repeatedly broken items ever since I even got here.

and back in the day, he built triforce IE PD LW like any adc the appearance of on hit is what made him breaking items, ezreal has historically broke 0 items from season 1 to the end of season 2

Kog makes it impossible to expand on on-hit items since he'll break those.

see above

Vlad was a massive stat stick before and only marginally passable after his rework.

everyone was a stat stick in the early days of league, this is not relevant at least vladimir did not have hidden power , auras, or power without gameplay like zileas did not want league to have

Trist is either way too much or not nearly enough in nearly any meta. Yi is that but significantly more drastic. Ryze is never done right. Wtf is Teemo supposed to be in this game?

this is just as irrelevant as anything written above

They still reworked his kit, though...

Sure, because he had no direct counterplay league evolved stat checking was not deemed a problem in season 2 or earlier as long as your character could have been taken down in 5v5 instead of 1v1 but then the philosophy of riot evolved

HalcyonDweller2 votes

Of course you would say that. He didn't make it it came from DotA. Must you always try so hard to find reasons to insult people you dislike?

Also what's with this thread title? Seems kind of manipulative to me.

Just saying, "gonna be honest," doesn't magically make whatever follows actually true and factual.

Case in point: "Gonna be honest, the earth is flat."

Salron5 votes

R is fine W really needs to become a new spell entirely

chipndip11 votes

I'm not a fan of R but at least we agree on W.

Teridax683 votes

W I think needs to be the main target. It is not a particularly interesting or interactive ability, and has been powered down to such a degree that Ahri feels too reliant on her ult to be able to do anything. Turning it into something less reliable, but more exciting (and ideally more damaging) could allow Ahri to feel like more of a damage threat, and from then it might be worth gauging how much power truly needs to go out of her R.

wildfox992 votes

a good start could be removing some scaling from her R (atm 105% AP scaling) and put it in her W (30%,48% vs single target)

also the free MS is not gone,they just put it in her passive and does the same as the old one...the MS in her kit needs to be removed and her Q passive needs to be more interactive

chipndip11 votes

No, I mean literally change her ult. Not buffs/nerfs. A new ult and a new W.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

No, I mean literally change her ult. Not buffs/nerfs. A new ult and a new W.

so delete ahri… got it

LTK KoRo1 votes

That sounds like a pretty good idea. I have nothing against ahri, but i would love to see outrage/crying from ahri mains

chipndip11 votes

Idk why you guys get attached to the worst parts of everyone's kits so much but it makes progress hard to achieve.

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

Idk why you guys get attached to the worst parts of everyone's kits so much but it makes progress hard to achieve.

maybe because they are not the worst part of the kits? might as well make everyone the exact same champion with the exact same skills at that point.

Ahri is one of the LEAST mobile assassins in the game. Yes she has 3 dashes that are tied to her ultimate! and she has a to use them all within a time period or wait until his ult is back up to use said dashes again. Unlike other assassins that have mobility on their BASIC ABILITIES! so they can move around way more often and more freely than Ahri can. You having a problem with Ahri's ult is of no concern to us. It's literally the part of her kit that let's her be who she is. Her W needs work not her ult

chipndip11 votes

{quoted}

maybe because they are not the worst part of the kits? might as well make everyone the exact same champion with the exact same skills at that point.

Ahri is one of the LEAST mobile assassins in the game.

Well you're wrong three over and I read only 3 sentences. For starters, the least mobile assassin is Eve, not Ahri. Ahri's also not a full assassin, but a mage with assassin bits (mobility). Lastly, what's the point of addressing a champion if you aren't actually going to fix the stupid shit? This is reason why so many of Riot's mini-reworks sucked, and now they're going all-in on VGUs.

Like, no one liked the Rengo mini-work. No one liked LB's mini-work. No one liked Kog's. Malzahar's. Hell, wtf did they even do for Annie's besides a glorified nerf of her ult? When you get attached to the most problematic part of a kit, it makes it too difficult to improve the champ's design.

wildfox991 votes

a good start

her W/passive needs a rework,but riot won't do it so i said that we could start with that

Kelg2 votes

Agree delete her r and make her immobile

chipndip12 votes

I didn't say make her immobile. Don't put words in my post. She's meant to be "somewhat assassin-y", so I imagine she needs SOME mobility...just not 3 big ass dashes...

Hyquiem1 votes

“Balancing ahri” riots 3 season waifu. But “balancing Azir” is not even a thing

chipndip12 votes

How many times have they tried? They even made an official statement stating that they're going to take a break from trying to balance champs like Azir and Ryze because they keep coming up short on them. I mean, they'll balance them, yeah, but they aren't as committed to breaking the whole "broken in pro/weak in solo queue" thing as they were when they did Azir's mini-rework...since it didn't help (remove the fucking shuffle)

saltran3 votes

Lmao Azir is a champ that needs to be gutted for the game health until they get ride of the combination of being a safe long range hipercarry and being able to do an aoe insec.

Until then I'm GLAD that he's in the garbage, similar to Kalista, nothing personal but those champs needs updates in order to not be gigabroken every team they are viable.

Paroe2 votes

{quoted}

Lmao Azir is a champ that needs to be gutted for the game health until they get ride of the combination of being a safe long range hipercarry and being able to do an aoe insec.

Until then I'm GLAD that he's in the garbage, similar to Kalista, nothing personal but those champs needs updates in order to not be gigabroken every team they are viable.

Azirs concept as a whole needs changes. He needs to be an adaptive marksman - not a wierd chunking zone control mage. We already have adaptive marksmen in the form of kai'sa, who is also strange not just adaptive.

@thread Ahri DOES need her ultimate looked at, but she also needs a relaunch. Shes officially vastayan and her old lore - the lore that made her a gumiho - doesnt make sense. Id say make her a transforming champion who switches between nine-tailed fox form, and human form. Fox form can have her current W, her current passive, a new Q that is an enhanced auto, and a new E that lets her become stealthed in her own minion wave for a few seconds (like melee range). Her human form can have a new passive, her current Q, a one-use version of her current ult, and her current E.

wildfox991 votes

not all vastaya can become full humans,only the ones with one parent human and the orther vastaya according to the lore

probably ahri is daughter of 2 vastaya so she can't (in her lore she tries to hide her tails so probably she can't become human)

Hyquiem1 votes

{quoted}

Lmao Azir is a champ that needs to be gutted for the game health until they get ride of the combination of being a safe long range hipercarry and being able to do an aoe insec.

Until then I'm GLAD that he's in the garbage, similar to Kalista, nothing personal but those champs needs updates in order to not be gigabroken every team they are viable.

Broken b/c it takes skill to play the,

saltran1 votes

Yes, he's hard to play and Kalista also takes skill to play and both need to be on the gutted until they get some kind of update.

Hyquiem1 votes

{quoted}

Yes, he's hard to play and Kalista also takes skill to play and both need to be on the gutted until they get some kind of update.

Azir’s is balanced if they take his e and r. Kalista idk much but I’m guessing the mobility breaks her.

saltran1 votes

Imo Kalista biggest issue is that she has a second live to her support when her ultimate, to solve it should be just for engage but not for disengage and the other major issue is that she can secure Drake/Nashor with her rends and it should just be limited to X number of Spears to epic monsters.

Hyquiem1 votes

{quoted}

Imo Kalista biggest issue is that she has a second live to her support when her ultimate, to solve it should be just for engage but not for disengage and the other major issue is that she can secure Drake/Nashor with her rends and it should just be limited to X number of Spears to epic monsters.

Oh makes sense then.

LightIsMyPath1 votes

Her r is her most defining trait though. It allows for both charm and orb setups, what's not good about it imho is the damage coming from the dashes. Btw they randomly extended her charm duration, that's why she's not balanced again. All she needed was some w love

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