Zeal item %MS should only apply outside of combat

NodirjonSattarov·Feb 5, 2018·15 votes·817 views

This way the ADC is made approachable if they're out of place (and try to fight it out) but maintain normal %MS when running away w/o AA

25 Comments

DuskDaUmbreonFeb 5, 20186 votes

Seems a bit too harsh. Especially considering that ranged champions tend to already have very low MS.

Maybe increase its out of combat power a bit, but make it only apply at half in combat?

NodirjonSattarovFeb 5, 201810 votes

Champions that have low MS are intended that way (Ashe, Kog'maw etc.) because they have power in other places in their kit to substitute for the lack of MS.

It Hertz When IPFeb 5, 20189 votes

Pretty sure the reason they have low MS is because they're balanced around the fact that they regularly build at least one Zeal item, if not two.

Teridax68Feb 6, 20181 votes

Both are true. Marksmen are given the lowest MS around because they're expected to pick up Zeal (and multiple times, too), but many marksmen, such as Ashe and Kog, are also balanced around being especially immobile, or in the case of Kalista and Lucian, around depending on ability-based mobility. The problem with the current state of affairs is that it contributes to the overarching problems of the marksman class, where they start out with visible weaknesses, but then progressively lessen all of those weaknesses with items. This is not the same as having a hypercarry curve, because hypercarries are typically defined by one strength, usually damage, and do not need to cover all of their weaknesses as well in order to operate properly.

NineTailedMysticFeb 6, 20181 votes

Especially considering that ranged champions tend to already have very low MS

That's kind of the point.

Ok sure but whyFeb 5, 20183 votes

"While running away" won't work if Twitch managed to auto them one single time within the last 11 seconds.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 5, 20181 votes

or, we can give assassins actual In Combat movspeed instead of this OoC hippy dippy bullshit.

Rathar DashingFeb 6, 20181 votes

Ghostblade's active applies in combat, and the OoC part is just for helping approach/farming the jungle.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 8, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rathar Dashing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZAXkzMO2,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-06T01:25:56.678+0000)

Ghostblade's active applies in combat, and the OoC part is just for helping approach/farming the jungle.

Or, we can make it give in combat MS?

AirKingNeoFeb 5, 20181 votes

They need the movement speed because of the inherent delay auto attacks have by making you stop moving.

Otherwise you'd make every ADC shitty as Aatrox where people just walk out of your auto range.

PB4UAMEFeb 6, 20182 votes

That also applies to melees who have to stop chasing to get AAs off, to the point where if you move quickly enough, someone like Udyr without his bear stun lunge would not be able to auto attack you unless going roughly 30+ MS faster, and yet, ranged champions get more MS increases than melees.

AirKingNeoFeb 6, 20181 votes

All I did was tell the why the OP was wrong. I did not bring up melees.

Some melees need more MS, but that's not the topic.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 6, 20183 votes

Kiting should be a defense mechanic, not an offense on. This is why the MS should be nerfed because ADCs that build SS, Runaans, and RFC are using them offensively which is one of the problems with zeal items.

AirKingNeoFeb 6, 20181 votes

They need the movement speed because of the inherent delay auto attacks have by making you stop moving.

Otherwise you'd make every ADC shitty as Aatrox where people just walk out of your auto range.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 6, 20184 votes

Role of ADC is to safely output damage. Not chase to get kills lmao

Tails9016Feb 6, 20183 votes

Otherwise you'd make every ADC shitty as_** Aatrox where people just walk out of your auto range.**_

_Me as a once Aatrox player _ https://i.imgur.com/xmwEEZC.jpg[/img]

NineTailedMysticFeb 6, 20181 votes

But they shouldn't be able to infinitely chase/kite/run because they get absurd MS from items.

NodirjonSattarovFeb 6, 20181 votes

Yes, precisely. Boots with 2 zeal items gives an ADC with base MS of 325 a total 397.6MS absolutely (meaning that regardless if they're in combat or not).

edit; adc total calculation is wrong, i thought boots gave 30flat ms. they actually give 45 so the total MS is higher.

Jesus is SaviorFeb 6, 20181 votes

This would ruin Master Yi and other melee champs who like crit.

This would also defeat the entire purpose of one of the zeal items, Phantom Dancer. (Which gives EVEN MORE movespeed if you're near champions - ie: it's literally designed for chasing in combat).

Could make the penalty for ranged only, but I'm pretty sure Riot's design philosophy for these items was "these are for chasing/kiting."

NodirjonSattarovFeb 6, 20181 votes

IDK if you read the post but I specifically mentioned marksman. Ideally the only reason ADCs should get bonus MS is to kite defensively. There are many ways to make crit items benefit melee more like giving it the Phage treatment where ranged do get MS but only 30% of melee. Riot's design philosophy is complete garbage

Jesus is SaviorFeb 6, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Kogfather,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZAXkzMO2,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-02-06T03:09:33.495+0000)

IDK if you read the post but I specifically mentioned marksman. Ideally the only reason ADCs should get bonus MS is to kite defensively. There are many ways to make crit items benefit melee more like giving it the Phage treatment where ranged do get MS but only 30% of melee. Riot's design philosophy is complete garbage

You mentioned marksman, sure. But the whole premise of your post is "make zeal out of combat only."

NodirjonSattarovFeb 6, 20181 votes

It was a mere suggestion to the ADC problem. factors involving melee champions can be dealt with in a different way

MãmbãFeb 6, 20181 votes

Yeah we don't need to nerf kiting, or good positioning. We need to nerf damage spikes/itemization costs and adjust damage curve to gear more to 30 minutes instead of 20.

This will probably not happen though because Riot wants shorter games.

Teridax68Feb 6, 20181 votes

I think this could be a step in the right direction, but then again, this also basically means marksmen are still having some of their power allocated to roaming, when they're not supposed to specialize in that. This is also why I'm not a big fan of boots: if every class needs a certain amount of a stat just to be able to function, in this case movement speed, then that stat is not a choice, and so would be better off integrated directly as needed, rather than presented as an optional stat. This is not to say that no marksmen should ever roam, as I think more duelist or solo-oriented marksmen like Quinn, Kindred, Graves, etc. could use out of combat movement speed, but in general I think champions not designed to roam should not have access to good roaming. In this respect, if marksmen don't need movespeed in combat, I'd prefer to remove Zeal's bonus movement speed entirely.